http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/list/52.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
Does anyone know where I can get my hands on the Ogre as Pc supplement?

Also, has an industrious person out there developed a load of elf specific careers?

Just wondering!

Nikoli]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193493.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193493.page GMT
That said, I'm pretty sure I have the article saved on my PC at home. It's an interesting read actually. PM me an email to send it to and I'll try and ping it over to you this evening. Unfortunately, I don't have an online place to host it at the moment or I'd drop a link in here for you.

Ogres are pretty much a one trick pony, and it should definitely feel that way to a player. In my games, no one would even want to play one simply because they are so unwelcome in towns, cities, taverns, etc...and damn near everything except combat would pretty much exclude them.

Not to mention the willpower checks to make sure he doesn't try to eat one of the party member's horses while they are asleep...


You have been warned.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193604.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193604.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193608.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193608.page GMT Also, has an industrious person out there developed a load of elf specific careers?[/quote]
I found an unofficial WFRP 1e article detailing the [url="http://www.madalfred.darcore.net/articles/Laurelorn_Elves.rtf"]Laurelorn Elves[/url] on Mad Alfred's site, which contains many careers for Wood Elves.

Unfortunately, those Elven careers will need to be translated into 2e rules. [url="http://www.liberfanatica.net/"]Liber Fanatica[/url] (see Book I: Character Compendium), found on another unofficial site, contains a section for translating old into new, but it's not perfect.

I didn't play 1e, so I find it tricky to translate certain 1e elements (like magic, in particular) into 2e, as I don't have a good context for the old rules.

Anyone out there translate "Eldritch Watcher" (a Wood Elf version on the Journeyman Wizard career) into 2e rules? Or have a different Wood Elf-specific wizard career?

Edit: I embedded the URLs into the text, and specified title of LF Book I]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193637.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193637.page GMT
If the GM (and players) just remembers that the Ogre is about 10 feet tall, I think thats drawback enough. If hes lucky hell fit in the stables, but probably will freak out the horses so he should get used to his own (custom made) tent at all times.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193653.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193653.page GMT Also, has an industrious person out there developed a load of elf specific careers?[/quote]
I found an unofficial WFRP 1e article detailing the [url="http://www.madalfred.darcore.net/articles/Laurelorn_Elves.rtf"]Laurelorn Elves[/url] on Mad Alfred's site, which contains many careers for Wood Elves. It can be found at:


Unfortunately, those Elven careers will need to be translated into 2e rules. [url="http://www.liberfanatica.net/"]Liber Fanatica[/url] (see Book I: Character Compendium), found on another unofficial site, contains a section for translating old into new, but it's not perfect.


I didn't play 1e, so I find it tricky to translate certain 1e elements (like magic, in particular) into 2e, as I don't have a good context for the old rules.

Anyone out there translate "Eldritch Watcher" (a Wood Elf version on the Journeyman Wizard career) into 2e rules? Or have a different Wood Elf-specific wizard career?

Edit: I embedded the URLs into the text, and specified title of LF Book I[/quote]

Cheers!

I'll check it out! I just wish elves had more description in the game. I could usually get my head around dwarves, they seemed to be fleshed out somewhat, but elves are always ignored, even in the new edition. All this talk of elven magic and mystic attunement is just a smokescreen. They're humans with pointy ears.

I remember in an old Gods and Divinity supplement for 1st ed, the Old Faith was made into their religion, and they had a really interesting feel then...they started to come together. Much more should be made of the Woodelves Celtic feel beyond some excellent fantasy art in the Battle books. Now THAT is how WFRP should have been drawn, not the current art which is too kiddish. WFRP should detail their fay nature - wild, illusive, and dangerous. Their magics should be illusion, nature, and enchantment based...not just a carbon-copy of the humans. I also hate putting things outside the players hands, like the High Elven magic. To say it is beyond the scope of the game shows that the game modelling of the world falls short.

Rolemaster could model virtually anything. WFRP could too. I think if you really like your creation, then you should make it comprehensive. WFRP should have rules for battle magic and elven magic, and it may be incredible, but it should, for the sake of completeness even if beyond most characters, be detailed.

Maybe I'm just anal about such things.

Nikoli

P.S. I think Ogres could be dealt in a way similar to Robert Jordan's approach with his "Ogier". Namely, they are incredibly rare, but not unheard of, and maybe some Inns in the biggest cities are know to have an "Ogre Bed"...perhaps now used for storage. Afterall, how often does an Ogre come to stay? But they pay well! ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193834.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193834.page GMT
Being Irish, I should make a brilliant Elf! All the roleplaying experience points go to me!

Nikoli]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193852.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193852.page GMT There is a pdf on Ogres I think SteveD did that has ogres Balanced fairly well, it also includes a couple of ogre centric careers. Im sure I have it here somewhere, if anyone is intrested I'll dig it up and put a link to it.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193906.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193906.page GMT There is a pdf on Ogres I think SteveD did that has ogres Balanced fairly well, it also includes a couple of ogre centric careers. Im sure I have it here somewhere, if anyone is intrested I'll dig it up and put a link to it.[/quote]

I did one here: http://www.steved.org/rp_rules.html

Somebody else - maybe Andy Law or Dan White? - did another, which was much prettier but covered the same kind of ground.

]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193987.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/193987.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/194184.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/194184.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/194191.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/194191.page GMT I just wish elves had more description in the game. I could usually get my head around dwarves, they seemed to be fleshed out somewhat, but elves are always ignored, even in the new edition. All this talk of elven magic and mystic attunement is just a smokescreen. They're humans with pointy ears.

I remember in an old Gods and Divinity supplement for 1st ed, the Old Faith was made into their religion, and they had a really interesting feel then...they started to come together. Much more should be made of the Woodelves Celtic feel beyond some excellent fantasy art in the Battle books. Now THAT is how WFRP should have been drawn, not the current art which is too kiddish. WFRP should detail their fay nature - wild, illusive, and dangerous. Their magics should be illusion, nature, and enchantment based...not just a carbon-copy of the humans. I also hate putting things outside the players hands, like the High Elven magic. To say it is beyond the scope of the game shows that the game modelling of the world falls short.

Rolemaster could model virtually anything. WFRP could too. I think if you really like your creation, then you should make it comprehensive. WFRP should have rules for battle magic and elven magic, and it may be incredible, but it should, for the sake of completeness even if beyond most characters, be detailed.

Maybe I'm just anal about such things.

Nikoli
[/quote]

I can't express enough how much I agree with this! Why no battle mage career? Why no high elven mage career? Couldn't they have used a page or two in RoS for this? It always seemed lazy to me. I buy supplements like that exactly for those kind of rules, so I don't have to make them up. Not a paragraph about how I should figure it out myself. And I also agree with the elves not being fleshed out nearly enough, and being nothing but humans with pointy ears. When I first got the 2nd edition books I looked for hours to find the rules on elven magic users, but the truth was that there were none. A new elven supplement would be most welcome I think!

And not to end my very first post on this forum with just a rant let me tell you that I do like the new "strictly elven" careers like envoy and kithband warrior, and I am also a HUGE fan of the new magic system, being as unpredicatable and dangerous as they've currently made it. Just to name a few things!]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196096.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196096.page GMT let me tell you that I do like the new "strictly elven" careers like envoy and kithband warrior,[/quote]

My (only) problem with those careers is that I can't see any reason at all why they aren't applicable to any of the other races. Envoy is just, well, an envoy, and Kithband Warrior would suit a Robin Hood-type character perfectly. For that matter, I can't see any good reason why other races shouldn't become Troll Slayers - a character could follow the career without the title, and with or without similar motivations, but there's nothing about the advances, skills and talents that says Dwarves only; it's just a career for a hard bastard with a death wish.

Cheers

Sparrow]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196513.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196513.page GMT
The other problem with the addition of such magic into the universe is that the age of such magic users and the amount of experience to get to that level needed is huge. Most of the High Elf wizards allowed out of the White Tower are millennia old.

That level of power would have to come with some dire consequences, otherwise it would be impossible to balance, and even if it did, the random nature of the magic system would make it impossible to balance anyways. Such spells at the High Magic level are able to take out entire regiments in Fantasy Battles, and they're drastically underpowered vs. the fluff.

If a mage at this level can kill dozens of soldiers as they're rushing at him, what's the likelihood of any character or anything for that matter at the level of WFRP to even threaten him.

]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196587.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196587.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196614.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196614.page GMT
*Open filing cabinet *]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196617.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196617.page GMT come backs....umm....okay, Jon 1, me 0.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196658.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196658.page GMT
Caution...this [i]is[/i] Sparta!]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196667.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196667.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196671.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196671.page GMT
I mean, with only 20 spells per lore, how hard can it be to whip up a High Magic lore?

Even if its for NPC use only...]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196846.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196846.page GMT I understand what you are saying, but tend to disagree. Making, for example, a "generic" troll slayer would certainly seem possible, but it looks to me more like how D&D would approach it: group certain combat abilities and call it a class for everyone to use. However the strong side of WFRP is that it creates a certain feel to the material; you might even say some sort of (fantasy) cultural bond. A dwarven troll slayer is not merely a hard bastard with a death wish, he is a hard bastard with a death wish from the dwarven halls of the old world, with a bond to dwarven culture and a place in its society. Say troll slayer to an old worlder, and chances are he will have a particular view about them, which goes beyond them merely being hard bastards with a death wish. (sorry if I have oversimplified your example somewhat, but I'm just trying to make a point)
So too with elven envoys: it is not merely an envoy of some sort of group, it is an elven envoy send by his elders because they wish to gain a deeper understanding of human culture/politics/events, and having a far shorter lifespan than elves, human lifes tend to go too fast and confusing for the slower paced and longer lived elven culture.
In my opinion, a case like this can be made for each particular career geared to a certain race. The fluff it creates adds tremendously to the entire feel of the WFRP setting, and is exactly what makes it so distinct (and better) from systems like D&D.

[quote=Puddy]I'd have to agree with the designers when they decided to not include high elf mages, in the sense as trained by the White Tower of Hoeth, for a few reasons. As the designers mentioned in RoS, 2 high elf mages swung the Great War against Chaos, can you imagine the sheer amount of power each one of them could wield? And to add that into a low fantasy setting where magic is scarce, and it's sort of ridiculous to conceive.
(...)
If a mage at this level can kill dozens of soldiers as they're rushing at him, what's the likelihood of any character or anything for that matter at the level of WFRP to even threaten him.
[/quote]
I must say that I do agree with your views on PCs using high magic (and PCs pursuing a career as high mage should definitely be shipped off for the next century to Ulthuan and automatically become NPCs). However, I would have liked to see some rules for battle mages, as they don't seem as powerful or uncommon as elven high mages. And some rules for NPC high elf mages would also have been great.

[quote=Jon Shai]Upon becoming a Wizard Lord, he's gone as far as the human colleges can train him.[/quote]
This comment raises another question for me. I assumed that the elves apprenticed with other elves outside of the imperial magical colleges, but have to choose a single color to study before being able to move on to high magic (after having advanced to wizard lord of course). You however seem to have interpreted the rules as elves apprenticing within the human colleges (or am I wrong about this?). Have I overlooked certain rules, or are we each merely giving our own interpretation?
]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196887.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/196887.page GMT
My own personal interpretation is that each wind of magic is taught separately even in Ulthuan with elven wizards spending decades to master one color completely before moving on to the next. Essentially, while a human can only master a single wind in his lifetime, elves have no time constraints, and immense patience, and therefore they can afford to take the time to master each wind individually before ever attempting even the most basic combinations of winds. Masters using several winds or all of them in symphony would represent many hundreds of years of learning and mastery, in some cases dating back even to before their war with the dwarfs. I can't put my finger on anything in the fluff that explicitly states that or even implies it, but I have it in my head for some reason that that was the reason Teclis structured the colleges as he did, because he knew human minds and lives were simply too limited to ever handle more than the very basics of a single wind. Sort of like going to cavemen and teaching them how to make fire with two sticks while you know how to build a firearm. Sure, it's cool, but they simply couldn't begin to grasp the complexities of chemical processes, metallurgy, precision craftsmanship, and the dozens of other vital elements involved in creating them.

Even the elves who stayed behind, while they would have some concept of what they had given up, would not necessarily be able to reproduce it in the Loren Forest. If Ford closes down their plant in a small town tears down the plant and sends management somewhere else, everyone who lost their job would still know what they did, and have a fair degree of understanding of how things fit together. Still, I wouldn't want to be the guy that drove the first car they produced after building a car based on assembly line workers memories and guesswork after they re-built the facility from the ground up.


Based on my interpretation, I could probably be persuaded to let an elf of sufficient age take on a second wind of magic after fully mastering the first, but frankly, I've never had a campaign last long enough to worry about second or third generations for the rest of the adventuring party, and I'm not too keen on the idea of setting a new campaign thirty years after my previous one and making everyone but the elven mage roll up new characters just so he can start his 5th career in a new wind of magic. * Shudder *]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/197125.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/197125.page GMT
But I don't think the High Mages really master a 2nd then a 3rd wind. I think the simple fact of becoming a 4th-level Wizard makes them ready to open themselves to the High Magic. It's a question of... perception, of capacity to be open to the magical art. A Wizard Lord is open ennough to become learning the High Magic.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/197356.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/197356.page GMT [/quote]

From the 'Apprentice Wizard' career (WFRP, p. 31): "Elves are naturally magical, and do not need to attend these human institutions*, learning from their own lore masters instead."

In other words: you're right!


*i.e. the Colleges of Magic.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/197732.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/197732.page GMT Somebody else - maybe Andy Law or Dan White? - did another, which was much prettier but covered the same kind of ground.

[/quote]

Yeah, it was Andy. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/197740.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/197740.page GMT
In my world I have a hard time reconciling the idea that a human can master a single wind of magic, but go no further. Elves also can go no further in the Old World. My version of the fluff works for me in explaining that away.

By making them master each wind (Similar to the Avatar having to master each element before integrating them, although I have been thinking of High magic in these terms since before my exposure to that animated candy) they take a thousand years or more to make a single High Mage. With that sort of investment of knowledge and time and power, even elves would not risk them unless it was imperative.

Of course, I also think one of the reasons the elves left the Old World is their magisters foretold the inevitable fall of the Old World to Chaos so they built the leylines to suck as much power out of it as they could before it's eventual fall. They only get involved now to delay what they see as the inevitable loss of a vast natural resource. Obviously, my personal fluff is far from canon.

Feel free to use what ideas you like and disregard the rest. I share it mainly to stoke the imagination of others. In my campaigns though, High Magic is a pipe dream for the PC's at best. That much power in the hands of a seemingly immortal race blurs the line between Gods and mortals, and I really don't have any idea what sort of adventures I could run to entertain gods.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/197769.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/197769.page GMT
High Magic is a combination of many or all of the Winds of Magic.

To use many or all of the Winds of Magic together, you must know how to use each of them by themselves, no?]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199504.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199504.page GMT
To use many or all of the Winds of Magic together, you must know how to use each of them by themselves, no?[/quote]

That is not something that always follows, many people know how to use a car but not it's component parts. Which may be a quite appropriate metaphor as Warhammer magic seems to be learnt by rote and spell rather than any spontaneous wielding of the winds themselves.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199515.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199515.page GMT
To use many or all of the Winds of Magic together, you must know how to use each of them by themselves, no?[/quote]

That is not something that always follows, many people know how to use a car but not it's component parts. Which may be a quite appropriate metaphor as Warhammer magic seems to be learnt by rote and spell rather than any spontaneous wielding of the winds themselves.[/quote]
True, but thats not how High Magic works.

According to the WFB background High Magic involves mixing the various colours of magical energy in a controlled manner, which may vary from spell to spell. So, unlike the car metaphor it has more in common with cooking, where the chef only produces the correct dish by understanding the nature and impact that all the ingredients will have on the end result.

So by implication all High Elf magic users must be able to identify and use all of the component colours of magic, and also by implication it must be possible for one mortal to learn how to use many colours of magic. The only thing preventing Colour Mages from doing so, are the teachings of Teclis and the Imperial Magic Code that enforces them.

[u]Elves.[/u]
To pick up on Jon's point about Elves, my own views are slightly different from reading the WFB background about them.

In my game Elves are much more magically atuned than human's who in turn are more atuned than dwarves. Indeed reading the 'Birth of the Dark Elves' background its clear that Elves are shaped and transformed by their exposure to different mixes of magical energy, so one could argue that they are partly magical beings. Their lives and even their appearance is heavily influenced by their exposure to magic and they therefore need to be able to both control and regulate that exposure virtually from birth.

Therefore, far from learning the colours of magic one by one in some sort of college environment I would argue that Elves learn to manage and regulate their relationship to magic energy as part the process of growing up, being guided and mentored by their kin through the difficult early years of their lives when they are subject to violent changes of both mood and appearance.

The WFB background makes it clear that all elves are obsessed with the need to keep a balance to their magic exposure, simply because it has such a major impact upon their minds and bodies. The Dark Elves themselves are merely Elves that have chosen to standardise their own mix at much darker level that normal, and the Wood Elves have chosen a more heavy mix focussed upon the Jade spectrum.

We also know from the WFB background that High Elf warriors deliberately strengthen their aggression and combat readiness prior to battle by altering their exposure to magic energy closer to the Dark spectrum, and worshipping Khaine.

So, the ability to channel and control multi-hued magic is a natural tallent for an elf, the only thing they need to learn is how to shape it into spells, and that again would largely be a matter of mentoring rather than college study. An elf witnessing an Colour College tutorial whould probably think it had wandered into a human kindergarten, as it listened to the ridiculous explanations of the most basic principles of colour channelling which it does naturally without really thinking about.

In my game elves view humans as dangerous children. Unlike the dwarves, who are just stupid, humanity has been given limited atunement to magic but are totally incapable of controlling it. As a result they are in danger of destroying themselves and anyone else close to them, hence the need to isolate the Elven culutre on Ulthuan as far away from them as possible. Teclis has attempted to limit the risks by persuading humans to focus on the control of a single colour of magic per individual, however, their short lives and lust for personal power make them impatient, unstable and untrustworthy. Were there not so many of them, and if they did not breed so rapidly then extermination would be a safer solution to the problem, but the elves do not have the ability to match humanity in either numbers or violence and so the current policy is one of damage limitation and guidance in the belief that eventually humanity will either learn to control itself or destroy itself in the process.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199677.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199677.page GMT
That seems a rather bad metaphor, as unlike a chef, a cook can duplicate the exact same results by simply following a recipe, no understanding of ingredients required.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199685.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199685.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199688.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199688.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199693.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199693.page GMT You should cook more curry...]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199697.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199697.page GMT Not really, the point is that even if you know what ingredients are required and in what quantities and perparations, you still need to be able to identify the ingredients, know how to measure them and how to mix them into the dish.

Even making a cup of tea would be impossible if you didn't know how to identify and obtain water, tea leaves and milk, or that the water needed to be boiled and that the tea brewed.

As Jadrax points out getting such things wrong can be quite interesting, not only in curry. I recall an old trick where salt was substitued for sugar in the sugar bowl to see the results.

]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199721.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199721.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199725.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199725.page GMT
"Of course this is lions testicle!"
*KA-BOOM*
"or was it cat? I forget..."

IIRC the ritual in RoS failed due to just such a thing.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199732.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199732.page GMT [/quote]

Movingly away from the metaphor for a moment - Magic in WFB and WFRP is learnt spell by spell. If you learnt how to manipulate the Winds of Magic in general rather than how to manipulate them to create one effect then I think the argument about High Magic requiring all the winds would have merit.

However, as even someone who knows how to manipulate the Bright Wind is incapable of casting a Fireball unless he knows the actual Fireball spell, that would to me imply that you do not learn how to manipulate the winds in general or indeed any more than an actual spell requires.

This means that You could well learn how to construct the winds into the precise configuration of Fury of Khaine, but still have no knowledge of how to manipulate them in any other way.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199743.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199743.page GMT [/quote]

However, as even someone who knows how to manipulate the Bright Wind is incapable of casting a Fireball unless he knows the actual Fireball spell, that would to me imply that you do not learn how to manipulate the winds in general or indeed any more than an actual spell requires.
[/quote]

This is where the game breaks down, wizards learning a set selection of spells from the lore does indicate to me that they are able to shape specific effects by manipulation rather than learn the spells by rote. Its just that certain effects apply to different lores, a beast shaman cant manipluate the winds of magic to set fire to stuff, its not something his lore can do]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199751.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199751.page GMT
I see it more as the advantages of a Collage education making sure you have a basic grounding in spells. Witches, on the other hand, often do learn only one spell from a given lore.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199754.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/199754.page GMT Thats true unles you are using the Teclis Catalogue but that only applies to Colour Mages, and then only if your using the V2 rules. Elves and other races don't use the Teclis catalogue, nor do non-colour human magic users, so they will learn their magic spell by spell.

But before they can even begin to learn how to cast a spell they must first learn to channel and control warp energy and shape it appropriately to form the spells and magical effects. In the case of Elves they have to gain the ability to manage the combination of multiple hues of magical energy, not just to be able to cast spells but also to be able to control their own magical balance.
[quote=Artaxerxes]This is where the game breaks down, wizards learning a set selection of spells from the lore does indicate to me that they are able to shape specific effects by manipulation rather than learn the spells by rote. Its just that certain effects apply to different lores, a beast shaman cant manipluate the winds of magic to set fire to stuff, its not something his lore can do[/quote]
The way I see it its not the game that's broken, merely the concept of Lores as the basis for magic class.

I keep the Lore concept purely as background fluff and academic waffle perpetrated by the Colour Colleges to explain to naive apprentice wizards why they can't dabble in other forms of magic.

Non-Colour Magic users don't bother with Lores at all, most will have never heard of them, and mention the idea to an Elf and it will probably just give you a condescending smile, whilst and Elementalist or Witch would probably just laugh at you.

For non-colour magic users in my game what matters is your channelling theory. Different classes of magic users have different theories about the nature and source of their magical energy, where it comes from, and how it gets shaped into spells. Elementalist believe they are harnessing the natural power of the elemental forces around them, witches beleive they are tapping the powers granted to them by beings from another plane of existence. whilst Orc's beleive they are invoking the support and assistance of Mork and Gork.

Mastering your channelling skills is what defines you as a magic user rather than a magic victim. Failing to do so leaves you at serious risk of being overwhelmed by the uncontrolled energy that surges around you. Elves in particular have no choice but to master their channelling skill as all of them are magically atuned and so even those who do not learn any spells would be at risk if they did not learn to control the magical energy that is attracted to their bodies. Humans are slightly more fortunate in that only a minority are significantly atuned to magic, however, those that are can be horribly mutated, and a danger to everyone around them, if they don't develop some method of controlling it. Dwarves and halfings have the least trouble because they are natural poor magic conduits and dwarves in particular can work with magical imbued materials without much risk of harm.

So, I put much more emphasis on channelling theory and leave the whole Lore concept out of the rules equation as in my opinion it's far too abstract and contrived to provide a reliable foundation for the rules of a magic system.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/200220.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/200220.page GMT
I am fairly new to WFRP (running The Enemy Within using v2 rules), and one of my players is a Wood Elf magic user. He is approaching the end of his first career. We started him off as a Wizard's Apprentice, lacking any other info on Elves -- though I have since discovered the unofficial Elves of Laurelorn "supplement" for v1. He and I are now wrestling with what to do with his next career.

We could follow the RAW and press him into a Journeyman Wizard career, in effect making him a human with pointy ears. This would be the simplest, though least interesting option. Or we could adopt one of the careers from the unofficial Elves book. But the magic system is now totally different, and I find myself attempting to port them into new v2 career(s) to provide the Wood Elves with more flavor. At the heart of my dilemma is the nature of magic in the new system. Thus my interest in the tail end of this thread.

So I ask all you veterans out there: If I wanted to play a Wood Elf magic user in your game, what options would be available to me?]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/203426.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/203426.page GMT
My game, either learn Human Magic from the Humans around you, or go back to the woods and learn Wood Elf Magic as an NPC. (Essentially, Empire Colour Magic, Bretonnian Grail Magic, Necromancy, Chaos Magic, Hedge Magic/Witchcraft or possibly Ice or Hag magic with a good enough back story.)

Although this would change once I had Written rules for Wood Elf magic, which is on my list of things to do, (Along with up-to-date Djed-hi Magic, Old Faith Magic and Araby Elemental Magic.)]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/203485.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/203485.page GMT
It's something Telics and his fellow elves basicaly came up with that style of thing for humans to grasp the concept, so they could learn how to weild magic as to reduce the chaotic effects and increases control humans could exert over the winds when wielding magic. I could be wrong in my view though.

I honestly dont see any reason why elves are better at magic given the RAW, other than being told they are, and have generaly always felt that they do it very differently to humans. I also was a bit disapointed not to see any information about elven magic in RoS, even if no hard rules were given.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/203799.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/203799.page GMT I had a Wood Elf magic user in my game so I'm familiar the problem.

I would support the views already expressed by Jadrax and Loswaith the gist of the problem being that Elves in general and Wood Elves in particular don't view magic in the same way as humans.

In my own game I occassionally fed Elywyn (the Wood Elf in question) a peice of human magic text. At one point she was handed a pretty basic description of a petty magic spell, but she (or more accurately her player) merely glanced at it and discarded it as rubbish. Her own magic abilities were atuned to the natural forces of the forest and had taken 80 years to evolve naturally through the careful mentoring of her father, she had no interest in the cheap tricks the humans called magic. This made perfect sense from a roleplaying viewpoint and the player having studied the background of the Elves earned big bonuses for delivering such a characterisation. Unfortunately, it created a big problem from the point of view of character development as nothing the Elf came across in Nuln was going to meet her expectations of value, and she was in fact little more than a tourist looking at all the quaint human magic ethnic trinketts she came across.

The problem went beyond even the magic issue as she was also unwilling to wear any human manufactured clothing, which at best was heavy and uncomfortable and at worse made out of dead things. Human weapons were useless to her as they were made out of dead materials with no magical atunement and she had no idea how the human exchange system worked with the little tokens.

It is important to note that in my game the Teclis system was a High Elf invention, so even that is alien to a Wood Elf, and Elywyn had never even heard of Teclis, let alone understood the principles behind his ramblings. She was actually handed a book on the subject by a human professor who thought she might find it interesting but she discarded that as trivial too.

The conclusion I came to in the end was that the only way forward for Elywyn was to treat her as a sort of Druid and to base her future development on the same principles as the druidic faith. This actually tied in nicely with the idea that the Wood elves had originally nurtured humanity in the study of nature and had helped to give rise to the Druidic faith in the first place. This effectively put Elywyn's magic career on hold whilst she was in town, but I intended to start employing the idea's in Mad Alfred's Druids and the Old Faith, once she got out into the wilds.

http://www.madalfred.darcore.net/Articles.html

The intention being to develop something closely akin to a divine magic career but without the gods per see, although the Wood Elves do beleive in magical beings such as Orion, Naestra and Arahan. I intended to link this all into the concept of places of power where gifts and knowledge can be gained by meditation and through vision quests.

Mind you how the hell Elywyn would persuade the others to co-operate with such activities was a major issue especially as one was a dwarf trollslayer who main interest was finding something big to fight.

Its probably worth pointing out that the lady who was playing Elywyn had never played WFRP or WFB before and knew nothing about the game or background. Her main inspiration was the Lord of the rings film and in particular the character of Galadriel played by Kate Blanchett. So, she came to the game with a number of pre-conceptions about elves and did a hell of a lot of her own background research to support her characterisation. Even to the point of submitting dialogue in Elvish at one point.

Fortunately. most of her idea's matched my own understanding of elves from reading the WFB source books so there were not too many clashes of idea's. In particular we both agreed that Elves are magical beings and that there appearance and personality can change with exposure to dark or light forces. Elywyn's player quoted as proof of this the scene where Galadriel is exposed to the tempation of the ring of power and the momentary revelation of scary Galadriel to Frodo. My own understanding of this is based upon the background description given of the transformation of Malekith and his followers in the article on the Birth of the Dark Elves.

This was another reason why I monitored the alignment of all the PC's in the party, as not only did their past behaviour need to influence the interest taken in them by various gods, it also needed to affect the appearance and personality of Elywyn. The point being that in theory at least she could become a Dark Elf, though in practice that was unlikely, even though she did have her scarey moments. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/204005.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/204005.page GMT
Who's got it covered?]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/204687.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/204687.page GMT
Who's got it covered?[/quote]


Working on it....]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/204987.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/9984/204987.page GMT