http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/list/6.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/18080.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/18080.page GMT
What [b]sensible[/b] reason would there be for switching to 4E?]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/18914.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/18914.page GMT
What [b]sensible[/b] reason would there be for switching to 4E?[/quote]

Well, 4E is a cleaner system than 3.5E, it will allow them to be up to date with the mechanics, so 4E players will be more inclined to bridge over, and the game will run smoother.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/19028.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/19028.page GMT I hope that Fantasy Flight Games develops and releases Midnight in a 4th Edition rules standard. As you noted, Tashiro, the D&D 4th Edition rules seem to be streamlined and more fun. Perhaps FFG shall take the Midnight setting in that direction to tap into the well spring of new players Wizards of the Coast is hoping to woo to D&D.

I support a 4th Edition compliant Midnight setting. But, nobody knows except FFG's managers. Hopefully, they'll share their intentions with the public soon.

Don (Greyson)
West Jordan, Utah]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/19041.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/19041.page GMT
The day that happens, is the day I vote with my wallet.

Note: I'm not adverse to 4E per se, or even the idea of upgrading the system. I just don't think Midnight needs, or will even benefit from, a change to 4E]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/19062.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/19062.page GMT
The day that happens, is the day I vote with my wallet.

Note: I'm not adverse to 4E per se, or even the idea of upgrading the system. I just don't think Midnight needs, or will even benefit from, a change to 4E[/quote]

Of course you vote with your wallet. So does everyone else.
I've looked at Midnight, and it is a great setting, and I think that 4E would benefit it greatly. Characters would be created faster, the system would be faster, combat would be faster, levelling would be faster, and everything would be more intuitive.

So, I can only see this as a Good Thing.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/19070.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/19070.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/20107.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/20107.page GMT
Of course, this comes with another problem -- finding a set of mechanics which suits the game's flavour and the paradigm. It isn't enough to just make rules, the rules have to fit the feel of the setting. d20 is not as bad as people make it out to be, but it is math-intensive, too much so I feel. That's why I think 4E will be a great idea.

On top of that - if you make another game mechanic system for Midnight, you'll have to deal with people who are upset at the fact they'd have to convert their old characters over - which may not be as smooth as people might hope, while you have others who simply do not wish to learn 'yet another game system'. Unless the system is [i]incredible[/i], you'll be losing out there.

I'm speaking from experience - my company's released an RPG, and the first thing that I have to deal with is the hesitation people have of picking up something when they don't recognize the game system. And designing a game system, with all the nit-picky rules that you need to come up with, is a pain.

4E may just simply be the best way to go, as far as time and resources are concerned.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/20124.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/20124.page GMT
Since then I've had a great time with the other games I played before d20, and new games I've found. As for being math intensive I disagree, but then I don't believe that simple = better. If I did I wouldn't still be playing the games I do (HackMaster, Alternity, Shadowrun, and Palladium to name some).]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/20142.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/20142.page GMT
Once I planned to do a HARP conversion*, now perhaps a WFRP version would be more appropriate?

[size=8]*) HARP is (in my mind) ICE's successor game to MERP, Middle-Earth Role-Playing. And, as we all know, Midnight is Middle-Earth in disguise. So I felt the marriage was natural, at least until I was disheartened by the alien views of the ICE forumites.[/size]]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/20485.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/20485.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/20491.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/20491.page GMT ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/24923.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/24923.page GMT
I was just curious, people have mentioned that 4E is a cleaner system and I was just wondering how you know? I'm not flaming or anything, I'm genuinely interested in info about the new game I've missed (not really up to speed with D&D these days - I last played when it was the red edition )]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/25206.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/25206.page GMT [/quote]
So 4E has no d20 system? Could you tell me something more?]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/25294.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/25294.page GMT http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35799
There's two reviews on the site, but this is the second one. If you want to see what 4E would have to offer Midnight... ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/25373.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/25373.page GMT I particularly like the introduction of XP for all parts of an adventure, not just the slayage. It's all sounding very interesting indeed.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/25442.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/25442.page GMT
Based on what I've heard thus far, I think that 4e would work pretty well for Midnight, IMHO. Yes, it is supposed to be a far cleaner, easier system to run and play in. Some of the things that strike me as working particularly well with Midnight seem to be less of a reliance on magic items for PCs and more reliance on a Race/Classes abilities to see them through things, including every class's ability to regain HP. (Think Iron Heroes or Star Wars Saga for these effects, non-magically.) They've also moved spells such as Raise the Dead and Restoration to rituals instead of merely 10-minute breaks in the action. Battlefield teleportation effects such as Dimension Door (or Dimension Strike, perhaps) have been kept in, but regular Teleport is also now a ritual.

While I am a fan of 3.0 and 3.5 (got nearly every supplement WOTC put out for each) and a big Midnight fan (got about half of the Midnight supplements out thus far and am currently working on the rest), I will definitely give 4e a try when it comes out.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/25470.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/25470.page GMT
*) HARP...was natural, at least until I was disheartened by the alien views of the ICE forumites.[/quote]

I have also had troubling experiences with the (rude) forums at ICE. That also turned me off HARP. But I do agree that WFRP would make a good fit for Midnight (grim, dark, low-magic, etc).

I also agree that D&D 4e sounds like it would make a better fit than 3.5e (heck - now you have to be 16th level before you even get a Fly spell...).

However, I would imagine both systems would need some work to fit into the author's concepts of the world. And, like other posters on this forum - it would be a shame to see all of their books become obsolete with a new version.
Perhaps they can find some middle-ground and just post a 4e/WFRP conversion guide???]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/41766.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/41766.page GMT
Unfortunately, I wouldn't purchase it if it did come out, because I long ago boycotted anything involving Games Workshop after the dirty tactics the company pulled in my region. While I do hope FFG gets their money's worth out of the titles they've taken from GW, I wouldn't be happier if GW itself imploded and we never heard from them again.

Vitriol aside, I would prefer to see Midnight under 4th Edition, because I like the setting and feel of Midnight, and 4E D&D has me pumped.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/41817.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/41817.page GMT
I'm sure someone in FFG's accounting department has been speculating if they could make more $ by converting Midnight over to WFRP.

However, the current (Green Ronin/Black Industries) WFRP rulebook is filled with background notes/races/setting info on the Warhammer world. I think it would take some effort to strip all that away, leaving just core rules.

I have no clue what FFG wants to do with their WFRP property? Will we get a new rulebook? Will they just make suppliments and use the existing (GR/BI) rulebook? I expect this decision will influence their thoughts on the core rules for Midnight.
(That - and how well the sales $$$ of 4e go for WotC... )]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/41944.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/41944.page GMT
Reading this thread, I wholeheartedly agree with people who think that the d20 system is not really fitting for [i]Midnight[/i].
The reasons ?
[i]Midnight [/i]is a dark, gritty game, where survival is the name of the game. In my opinion, it is a rather human-scaled game, where characters are struggling against the harsh nature of Aryth, fighting the Shadow's minions who are mainly human and orc soldiers with their legate masters. Monsters are occasional, or at least should be in my opinion, to convey the Tolkien-like feeling that is at the core of the whole [i]Midnight [/i]campaign setting.
The point is not to destroy the Shadow in the North nor even the Night Kings. I think the point is to fight for as long as you can, being a dwindling light of hope in a world gone terribly dark...yet hope is but an illusion and the end is near...
That's why the d20 system with its high-level characters able to withstand incredible amount of opposition isn't the best one can envision for the game.

One possibility is slightly tweaking the system as it has been done in Mongoose's [i]Conan [/i]RPG (stopping hit point progression at 9th level, lowering massive damage threshold at 20 pts of damage...) to break the "superheroic" feel inherent to classic D&D.

Another one I would suggest (and will probably use) is using Ryan Stoughton's wonderful [b][i]Epic6 system[/i][/b]

In a nutshell, the idea is stopping level progression (with all derived benefits such as hit points but also BAB, Save Bonus etc...) at level 6, allowing characters to gain one new feat every 5,000 Xp afterwards.
A 6th level character is truly a hero when compared to the standard commoner and can hold its own against several regular opponents but he is not a superhero able to stop the onrushing wave of an army [i]300-[/i]style...
As he grows in experience, he gets more and more versatile, broadening his spectrum of possibilities without ever becoming some kind of über-hero, bound to to struggle against outsiders and dragons to get his share of thrills (check out all those nice D&D Adventure Paths such as [i]Savage Tide, Shackled City[/i] or [i]Age of Worms[/i] to see what I mean...).
In essence, a d20 character is the character of one campaign and then you can put him aside as he has reached a power level that sets him out of mundane issues...like the ones being the staples of a [i]Midnight [/i]campaign...
1st to 3rd level magic is way beyond what an normal man can accomplish (think about it: flying, turning invisible, lobbing fireballs, breathing underwater...) and certainly makes a 6th level wizard a scary foe though not an unkillable one for one who has the advantage of surprise or who manages to get close enough to attack him in melee combat...

Check it out at:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=202109

It's really worth it...

(Sorry for being a bit long and for the occasional mistakes in English, your humble servant being French...so excuse my French, as you guys say )
]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/57382.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/57382.page GMT
[quote=Tashiro]...it will allow them to be up to date with the mechanics, [/quote]
If MIDNIGHT stays D20, then it is already up to date with mechanics that have been tested and revised. Not to mention staying compatible with the existing 18 titles that the MIDNIGHT fan base have bought.

[quote=Tashiro]so 4E players will be more inclined to bridge over, [/quote]
Not necessarily. Will gamers pick MIDNIGHT as their 4th edition? Or will they stick with GREYHAWK, FORGOTTEN REALMS, EBERRON, etc. Seriously.


[quote=Tashiro]and the game will run smoother.[/quote]
This is a mix of conjecture & opinion. D20 MIDNIGHT games run great if you have a GM who does not let rules ruin the story. All editions of D&D have their warts and 4th will be no exception.

Steve G.
Project Manager
AvatarArt
]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/64013.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/64013.page GMT
As opposed to 'roll 1d20 + attribute + modifier' vs DC, take result. Or even simply 'activate effect, take result'. I wouldn't call 4E dumbed down, though. I've been following it pretty closely, and the book keeping has been drastically reduced. I tend to prefer keeping that kind of stuff to a minimum, while being given a variety of options to choose from. (And they got rid of Dead Levels, which I'm pleased as punch for).

[quote]This is a mix of conjecture & opinion. D20 MIDNIGHT games run great if you have a GM who does not let rules ruin the story. All editions of D&D have their warts and 4th will be no exception.[/quote]

That depends on the desires of the players and the game master. For example, I want the rules to be used, not discarded. When I play, and when I GM, if the rules contradict the story, then the rules trump. This allows the players to get the drop on the bad guy, rather than having the bad guy survive for when the story says he 'should' be defeated, and it allows the good guys to lose, and lose badly, even at the beginning or mid-point.

Yes, I accept some players and game masters prefer 'story' with mechanics being something to act as a way to solve conflicts, but I prefer the rules to lay out the paradigm, and the story - if there's a story at all - to act within that paradigm. If the archer just happens to get their groove on and critical hit the general from across the battle field, kudos to the archer. General drops, army is confused, heroes get an advantage.

But, different players, different styles of game. And 3E bothered me specifically for the sheer amount of not-keeping and length of time it took to 'throw together' a 'quick' character or NPC.

[quote]Steve G.
Project Manager
AvatarArt
[/quote]]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/64038.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/64038.page GMT Another one I would suggest (and will probably use) is using Ryan Stoughton's wonderful [b][i]Epic6 system[/i][/b]
[/quote]

Yes! The E6 variation would be an excellent choice for Midnight. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/86800.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/86800.page GMT
I've always got the feeling of a fallen D&D world from Midnight as much as I did LotR, and I don't think the style of WFRP would fit for most Midnight games. The player characters have decidedly heroic destinies, and are all supposed to be a cut-above the average peasant, as in D&D, rather than accidentally involved folk as in WFRP.

I heard that one of the stated goals for 4e was to make it more adaptable, and it does seem that you can remove magic items, clerics and similar without harming the capability of the party to deal with things. In 3.5 settings this adjustment required either the introduction of new powers to try and bring the characters back up to par with varying success, or the GM had to wildly guestimate the possible threat of every creature taken from the main books.

The decision to clearly define the tiers of play (heroic, paragon and epic) now mean that you could run the game differently depending on tier- allowing for heroic characters to play through the whole hide-kill-[i]run[/i]! style of game at heroic, and letting paragon characters play the 'going out with a bang' against the forces of Izrador.

Plus, Midnight pretty much has the 4e 'Points of Light' setup well established already : )]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/115310.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/115310.page GMT
I like what they have done with the rules but it makes for a very flashy game. I'm not sure how you would adapt it all.

Removing Clerics is drop dead easy. They are, in fact, no longer required. Characters have healing surges and therefore will not require much of a healer.

Something would have to be done to alter Warlorks and Wizards (would there even be Warlorks?). Could you just give them the channel limit? It might be too weak.

How do you handle learning new powers? Sure, a fighter could accidentally stumble onto the idea of hitting an enemy with random slashes and those become his Exploits. Shrug.

I don't know. I would like to use the Midnight Setting and would like to use 4th Edition. I just don't know how to accomplish that right now. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/149910.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/149910.page GMT
I like what they have done with the rules but it makes for a very flashy game. I'm not sure how you would adapt it all.

Removing Clerics is drop dead easy. They are, in fact, no longer required. Characters have healing surges and therefore will not require much of a healer. [/quote]
Er, part of the grit of the setting was that healing magics weren't available. 4e makes them [b]more[/b] available.

[quote]How do you handle learning new powers? Sure, a fighter could accidentally stumble onto the idea of hitting an enemy with random slashes and those become his Exploits. Shrug.[/quote]
How do you handle characters learning new class abilities/feats in 3.5? Same difference.

[quote]I don't know. I would like to use the Midnight Setting and would like to use 4th Edition. I just don't know how to accomplish that right now. [/quote]
Personally, knowing what I know now about 4e, I'm still very much of the opinion that a Midnight conversion is a bad idea. While a lot of the mechanics have been streamlined, which Midnight could make use of, most of the classes would need completely reworking, and things like the healing surges removed. In short, I think it'd be more work than it's worth.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/154876.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/154876.page GMT
I like the concept of healing surges myself, only because HP does not (and has never represented) physical wounds. It represents endurance both physical and mental, physical wounds, determination to win, luck, skill at avoiding blows, etc. Since it represents all that (or is supposed to) the ability to take rests between combat and regain your determination and the like, is very acceptable representation.

The advantages of healing surges is that Midnight is a grueling world. There are skill challenges that can be done during the course of the day which represent lack of food, lack of good sleep, traveling, etc. A good DM can use these rolls to remove healing surges away from the characters. This is a fine way to represent the loss of over-all endurance without removing precious HP's from a character and thus, making them more prone to dying too quickly in combat.

AS a side note, I ran a Ravenloft game with a different system. This system had lingering damage and no magically healing. I was hoping that player would take this to mean that they couldn't jump into the fray with everything, especially when wounded. These are good role players and I found that the loss of being at full strength (full wounds) didn't matter to them. They had to leap into every fight because they were good guys and it was the right thing to do. Instead of avoiding combat because they had to respect that they were badly wounded, some of them greatly disliked the idea of the wound system and resented it in a way.

Thus I feel that Midnight is no different. Walking around with low HP's and seeing a village in peril is no fun. The players will want to act, regardless of the danger. Yes, they SHOULD act with cunning but the D&D system barely supports that. Where there clear rules for luring enemies into traps or being able to actual knock out or render an orc helpless by pushing a bale of hay on them, then maybe the wounded characters using guerrilla tactics would work better. But as it is, the players will get 1 round of surprise and then it's a fight as normal.

"How do you handle characters learning new class abilities/feats in 3.5? Same difference. "

Classes have very few inherit abilities now. Every level gives you a new Feat or a new Power. Powers are exploits (combat tricks, like hitting and knocked down an opponent), prayers or spells (both of which work pretty much the same as exploits but with more 'dazed, stunned, held effect). Spells have been steamlined to make them much...less...than they were.

In fact, I don't see why you wouldn't just include Wizards in the game now. They really don't have the power they once could possess. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/154959.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/154959.page GMT
I also want to allow for every class that D&D has to offer so any good ideas for how I could include Clerics, Paladins and Rangers would be appreciated. I intend to keep their numbers VERY low and also to work it into the story that Clerics and Paladins will be hunted by the Shadow's agents but I need a good plot tool to make them fit somehow, given the setting and how their kind of abilities would be hampered after being severed from their power source. Perhaps there is some good source still left somewhere in the world that they are able to draw power from and maybe they do not even know what/where it is and its discovery will be part of the ongoing staory of the campaign, leading to self discovery and their realization of their heroic destiny in regard to their special place in bringing the fight to the Shadow himself. Perhaps this hidden source is the key to restoring contact with the beyond that Izrador had once severed.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/169711.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/169711.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/169741.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/169741.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/169920.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/169920.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171061.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171061.page GMT

Can I ask what the reason is? Of all editions that D&D has ever had, 4th edition requires the trademark healing powers of the cleric and the paladin the least. Because everybody can heal themselves.

Further to consider, I've come to realize one thing that makes Midnight stand out from other games is access to equipment. Your fighter is typically defined by his sword, shield and sheets of steel (armour) in a typical D&D setting. But not in Midnight. In Midnight, the Fighter is tougher than most but might often have a dagger as their starting weapon. anything not concealable is tricky.

A cleric and Paladin take a little bit away from that feel in 4th edition, because they can both 'wield' implements as their form of attack (meaning their holy symbol). Since a typical Implement would be easily concealable (although recognizable), the fighting classes would be hindered in the world of Midnight, while the Cleric and Paladin would not likely be (assuming that they can get their Implement).

So I for one, don't see the need to include them since the game itself has taken great pains to exclude them. It seems fundamental to the world that the separation to other plains has ended the classes of clerics and paladins.

As a side note: Until the 2nd Player's Handbook comes out (which will include Barbarians, Monks and Druids) I think Midnight is a little difficult to use with D&D 4th edition. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171126.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171126.page GMT
There's more, but I'm nearly missing my point which is that, having said it's a good game, I actually don't think it'd make sense commercially for Midnight to port over to 4th edition. My reasoning is that, well... it's really no effort to convert across. Anyone with either 3.0 or 3.5 setting guide could put together something similar with 4e in an afternoon.

Arcane classes? Multiclass only. Branching out into Wizard from any of the martial classes has Channeler covered. Let characters multiclass into Warlock as equivalent to some of the weirder bloodline powers, then? Rituals are fine, since they were in Midnight already.

Divine classes, well... The only source of divine power is Izrador, so the clerics and paladins of Midnight serve him only. It'd be [i]interesting[/i] to allow some to 'spontaneously' develop, but even then I'd only go as far as letting a PC multiclass into one, possibly as a testament to their utter faith rather than being a conduit to the gods (basically, the Faithful bloodline). A full-on cleric in the world of Midnight is called a Legate, or more frequently, 'Sir'.

Lastly, you keep the gritty Midnight feel by not using Minion monsters, making fights a little less action-heroic. Many of the Paragon paths would need to be either reflavoured to match an existing prestige class, or made fresh from same, but not that many. Hell, for most games, you'd want to keep things at Heroic level, avoiding the situation completely .

And that's really it, apart from setting fluff.

(Having said [i]that[/i], I'd gladly buy up a 4e/systemless version of Midnight (and good ol' Dawnforge) in a snap.)

@ Daddystabz:
Eredane being removed from the heavens is not the work of Izrador. Basically, the world of Midnight is Izrador's prison, sealed off by the gods, which just happened to be previously occupied.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171155.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171155.page GMT
Regardless, it does improve combat a great deal, making it more exciting and yes, it can be just as dangerous if not more so than before.

I like the idea that Arcane classes are only accessible through Multiclassing. That's a fine idea and I will steal that.

I will disagree with the Minions suggestion, myself. I've found that using Minions, so far, adds exciting flavor to combat. In fact, I think it would be extra dangerous in Midnight, since Wizards are the 'controller' class and lacking that would make minions very challenging.

Also, I feel that Midnight has a close design affinity to the Lord of the Rings world (making magic more rare, having Orcs as the most common baddie, The Shadow and his 4 Ring-Wraiths, etc). As such, I would expect that players would want to see the battles that the characters had in the movies (at least the first movie with the Urak Hai). And Minions allow that a lot better. Minions are a great contrast to show that while some Orcs are killed with a quick stab to the throat, the really mean ones are much tougher than the characters would typically want to face. Minions are a nice 'gauge' for the players to feel that they are accomplishing something in a fight. Technically chipping away at the HP's of a big creature is a similar effect, but it feels a little more rewarding to remove figure after figure on the board.

Oh and some creatures get real benefits from using minions (or rather their abilities are designed to aid lots of figures and Minions just fit that bill better.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171183.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171183.page GMT
In response to sleeping_demon: As for Izrador and my references to him, what I am referring to is when Izrador was cast out of the celestial kingdom he tricked the others in the pantheon, thus cutting off their contact with the mortal world. This is simply what I was referring to in my earlier post. I plan on making a plot device that the player characters will be seeking that might once again allow contact with the celestial beyond and that has once again allowed very limited arcane and divine power into the world. The players will be desperately seeking it out to save their world and the forces of the shadow will also be seeking it out to destroy it.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171522.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171522.page GMT
Converting Midnight to 4E? Well, to start with...

Drop the following races:

Dragonborn
Half-Elves
Tieflings

Add the following races:

Gnomes
Orcs

Drop the following classes:

Cleric
Paladin
Warlock
Wizard

Keep the following classes:

Fighter
Ranger
Rogue
Warlord

You'd still need a Channeler equivalent. Sadly no Sorcerer at present. However, if you really want it, then throw in either the Warlock or the Wizard as a replacement. In addition, Clerics and Paladins do exist. They're all exclusively servants of Izrador, however. Although with the changes to how Clerics and Paladins get their powers, it's possible to have a character who was a Cleric or Paladin of Izrador who's switched sides, yet retains his class powers.

Then get rid of magic items, but in lieu of magic items, give PC's the following every five levels or so:

+1 to hit
+1 to damage
+1d6 damage on a critical hit
+1 AC
+1 Fort Defense
+1 Ref Defense
+1 Will Defense

Personally I say start handing out those bonuses at level 3 and every five levels after (8th, 13th, 18th, 23rd, 28th).

That's all I can think of for now.
]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171532.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171532.page GMT
I don't think anybody who's posted so far has had any misconception on how Healing surges work.

The fact remains that 3rd edition Midnight was played without clerics or paladins AND without healing surges. The Healing skill was important and players were forced to pick or choose their battles. Anybody who dropped in a battle was pretty much screwed because it would take them days (weeks) to fully recover.
So by virtue of the fact that one gets to have healing surges improves your survivability in the world of Midnight considerably. You might be dropped in a fight but afterwards, you will likely be able to recover all your HP's before the next encounter.

Also, Warlords has a few powers that allow the use of a healing surge and give temporary HP's.

4e combat should be deadlier than regular D&D, so I don't see what the problem is.

Also, the Cleric eventually gains access to utility prayers (Cure Light Wounds and higher) that do not use the Healing Surges of a character, but just heal them X number of HP's. At this point, the healing starts to fall more into the realm of pure light fantasy, rather than the dark horror that is Midnight. A well designed cleric helps take the sting out of combat, making encounters just an obstacle on the road to gaining XP, rather than a true life or death challenge. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171541.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171541.page GMT
For this and other reasons, Paizo, Green Ronin, Troll Lords, and Kenzer are currently not planning material for 4E. Paizo is developing Pathfinder RPG as a new version of 3E to support their material, and Green Ronin has the True20 system.

Necromancer and Goodman Games are looking at publishing some 4E material. It looks like Goodman at least may not be using the GSL, because they have any early release date, which would be in violation of the GSL, but it's difficult to tell at this point whether they got special licensing permission or if they are taking the risk of publishing outside of the GSL agreement, either by using the existing OGL or copyrighting their own material and making it 4E compatible. Necromancer intends on publishing 4E at the moment, but they do not intend to publish any existing product lines that they wish to continue to sell 3E versions of.

I am pretty certain that in light of these other 3PP's decisions, Fantasy Flight will take a wait-and-see approach to 4E. The new WotC GSL is a very tricky thing and dangerous territory for any 3PP. I'm certain they will need to go over it very carefully with their lawyers before they make a decision on how they move forward with 4E. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171837.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171837.page GMT I'm still cool with the idea that combat capability is no longer balanced against out-of-combat utility. Because they shouldn't be mutually exclusive, and it mostly just ended up with 50% of the characters doing nothing of interest at all times. Glad to be rid of it.

[quote=Sarim Rune]I will disagree with the Minions suggestion, myself. I've found that using Minions, so far, adds exciting flavor to combat. In fact, I think it would be extra dangerous in Midnight, since Wizards are the 'controller' class and lacking that would make minions very challenging.[/quote]
I concede to this point. We've got a wizard and a ranger in our games, so minions just [i]die[/i]. Without the wizard, them ganging up becomes a real issue, especially when they're helping the 'full' monsters get combat advantage and the like. Very good point about the LotR fights, too.

As for healing, I agree the Cleric gets very good, but I'd like to shout out for my friend the Warlord, who is a lot better at it than many think. You just don't need a cleric any more, even in regular D&D. As an aside, I had a thought: modifying several rituals from the PHB to use Nature rather than Religion would mean we'd have Herbalism covered. The GP cost for casting is intended to be a measure of component expense, rather than actual gold, so that works, I think.

I like the healing surge mechanic also because it allows the characters to do the 'hounded' thing entertainingly- their pursuers catch up to them, they fight their way out, repeat. In this way surges allow you to have pretty tense fights each time, without the fear that one of the characters will simply die from an opening blow, and has at least a fighting chance. I don't know, it just feels more heroic doing it that way.

This ended up quite rambling, sorry.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171859.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/171859.page GMT Not necessarily. Will gamers pick MIDNIGHT as their 4th edition? Or will they stick with GREYHAWK, FORGOTTEN REALMS, EBERRON, etc. Seriously.
[/quote]

I'm a former Forgotten Realms fan. Not anymore, since they butchered the setting to make it fit 4e. They advanced the timeline for 100 years and killed of not only millions of regular folks (since 100 years is more than a lifetime for a human), but also lots of the fans' favourite characters, and dozens of gods.


I think 4e won't fit Midnight at all. The "everyone can heal" part wouldn't fit the low-healing situation, the at-will or once-per-fight powers wouldn't fit the rare magic aspect.

And, much more importantly: It seems that FFG would have to sign the GSL to do anything for 4e. No one in their right mind would sign that thing. It practically gives wizards of the cost all the advantages. FFG would have to stop producing any of their 3e stuff (you CAN'T have one product line in both systems), and would not be able to resurrect the 3e line when wizards pulls the license (which they can do at any time). Also, wizards can change the license, doesn't have to notify anyone, and you're responsible for noticing changes, because if you keep selling afterwards, you accept the new version (which might change the facts so that you can't use the OGL for anything any more, or any other nastiness).

Another thing is that if they later incorporate stuff into the GSL (like, say, druids), and your GSL material contains parts with the same name, you must remove the stuff from your book.

Furthermore, you cannot change the definition of anything in the new SRD. I'm not quite sure about this one, but that could be read like "our elves are the way elves are to be, you may not change that"


Even if 4e by itself were the better system for Midnight (what I don't think), it's still not feasible because of the cutthroat license.


I think they should stick to 3e or switch to Pathfinder RPG, published by Paizo. Pathfinder will be backwards compatible to 3e, but will try to fix most of what is wrong with 3e without turning it into a whole new game. It will be completely OGL (so there's no cut-throat license to sign, there's no expiration date, nothing to pay), but Paizo will have a small license (which they will make easy to get into) for a logo to put on your books to indicate compatibility to Pathfinder.

Just go to paizo.com and check it out. It's in Alpha stage right now (Alpha 3, and right now, it still needs the 3.5e core books, because it doesn't contain everything yet), but in August, there will be a beta version. The best about this betatesting: It's open to everyone, and the PDFs are free for download (the Beta will also have a print version, which will be something like 400 pages and cost a mere 25 bucks). It literally costs nothing to check it out.

Additionally, FFG could look into other game systems (because they're not mutually exclusive, unlike 4e) and even go dual-system, like Legend of the Five Rings did for a time. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/174216.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/174216.page GMT
As for everyone having "powers," you have to remember that powers are simply a generic term for abilities. Fighters and Paladins have martial powers, simply meaning that these powers are special attacks that they use as melee combatants with their swords, etc. Instead of just saying "I hit the ogre with my sword" now you have the cool option to do something special with that sword swing. Afterall, skilled combatants (fencers, martial artists, etc), do not simply swing a sword.....they know exactly how to attack with their weapon in order to exact maximum hurt on their opponent(s).

I do however understand what many of you are saying about 4e not fitting the Midnight setting for various reasons. I think anyone that used 4e with Midnight would need to make quite a few adjustments to the core rules to make it really fit. This is why I am leaning more toward using Castles & Crusades, which fits Midnight rather easily with very minimal adjustment.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/174354.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/174354.page GMT
That would require to waste time and money on wizards products. After their recent activities, a lot of people will do neither.

[quote=daddystabz]
I think anyone that used 4e with Midnight would need to make quite a few adjustments to the core rules to make it really fit. [/quote]

Or go the wizards way, and make a lot of adjustments to the setting to fit the rules, like they did with the 4gotten realms.


And, as I said, it's all irrelevant, as the GSL just isn't feasible. wizards clearly wants their sandbox for themselves, and maybe trick a couple of companies into signing the GSL only to yank the rug out from under their feet, getting rid of them as competition in both GSL and OGL.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/174369.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/174369.page GMT
That would require to waste time and money on wizards products. After their recent activities, a lot of people will do neither.
[/quote]

Well, it's one thing to bash a system that you've got an informed opinion about and another to bash something that you've read, believe that you comprehend but clearly do not.

Also to say that they 'butchered the setting of something that has not yet come out yet...c'mon. I've been around the internet for so long, I've seen that same argument so many times. Why not wait until it comes out before coming to a conclusion.

I'm not refuting you about the GSL. You seem to have read it and it might be the devil for all I know.

I'm squarely in the middle of the 3.5 and 4.0 debate. I like what 4.0 does which is improve combat quite a bit. It's combat system is so much better than 3.5, it's like apples and oranges. But I dislike so many other things about it (magic, magic items, lack of character options, etc). But lots of people hated 3.0 when it came out. I think that I'll give it a year. I want to see what products they do put out and the 2nd players handbook before I completely dismiss it or not.

I'm curious about this Pathfinder. I will check it out. There are a lot of problems with 3.5 right now and to see some fixed, that would be nice. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/175061.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/175061.page GMT Well, it's one thing to bash a system that you've got an informed opinion about and another to bash something that you've read, believe that you comprehend but clearly do not.
[/quote]

I've read parts of it. Small parts, admittedly. And I read what others who did read it said about it. It's enough for me.

[quote=Sarim Rune]
Also to say that they 'butchered the setting of something that has not yet come out yet...c'mon. I've been around the internet for so long, I've seen that same argument so many times. Why not wait until it comes out before coming to a conclusion. [/quote]

I don't need the final version. The parts we know about are bad enouth, and there's stuff already in books:

They just skipped 100 years, did away with the weave, had the "Spellplague" that changed the way magic worked. They did all that to make the setting work with the rules (instead of doing it the other way around, which would have been correct).

Those 100 years alone will kill many very interesting characters, since they're human and humans don't get to live that long unless they're special. And many of those who are special are already known to be dead or insane.

They killed lots of gods, often in extremely silly ways (it brings to mind 5th-class soap opera writing, and often doesn't make sense at all). Those deities include, but aren't limited to, all duergar deities, all drow deities except Lolth, Helm, Mystra, Cyric more or less (he's under house arrest in his Realm for 1000 years), and probably many others.

They split drow into drow and dark elves, who are now nice and no longer black-skinned. They also said that the remaining drow are beyond redemption and will always be evil.


Most of the changes would have been deal-breakers for me on ther own. All of them are way beyond what I could tolerate. This is simply not the setting that was my favourite any more.

And, as you said: The hardcover isn't even out yet. It's bound to have a lot more changes like this.


[quote=Sarim Rune]
I'm not refuting you about the GSL. You seem to have read it and it might be the devil for all I know.
[/quote]

I read parts of it, and had lawyers (who happen to be roleplayers, too) take a stab at it, as well as several game designers. The consensus is that it's practically unsignable.

If they turned Midnight into 4e, they would have to stop making the old stuff. That's right. Sorcery and Shadow, Wrath of Shadow, the setting itself, Legends of Shadow, and all the other extant books would have to be discontinued, and they could never resurrect them, even if the license was terminated.

Plus, the GSL says that you may not redefine anything from the SRD. I'm not 100% sure on this one, but to me it reads that you could not keep the elves as Midnight has them, because 4e elves are forest dwellers, not magic users. Those are the eladrin. Midnight elves are basically like eladrin and elves all rolled into one - and the GSL won't let you redefine elves like that.


[quote=Sarim Rune]
But lots of people hated 3.0 when it came out. I think that I'll give it a year. [/quote]

I loved 3e from the start. And back when they first told us that they were doing 4e after all (despite their assurances that it wouldn't be there for some time), I liked that, too. It was only after more and more of it was made known that I realised that I won't want it. The final conclusion came when I browsed through the PHB and MM.

[quote=Sarim Rune]
I'm curious about this Pathfinder. I will check it out. There are a lot of problems with 3.5 right now and to see some fixed, that would be nice. [/quote]

It's only in alpha stages now, still requiring the core books for everything it doesn't contain (it's about 150 pages, compared to the final 550+), but already a lot of things have improved: Skills are now handled a lot better (without sacrificing versatility in the process), the classes had a lot of interesting stuff added (usually more choices to better individualise your character, and things like animal companions, special mounts, and familiars now have alternatives if you don't want to remember those critters).]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/175687.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/175687.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/196140.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/196140.page GMT
I ran into a number of problems with Midnight in 3.5, namely:

- The math is wonky. D&D 3.5 is built for superheroic characters, and it scales badly through levels. Witness the quick outpacing of AC by BAB, exponential hit point explosion of PCs over other creatures in the game world, etc.
- Complete dominance by casters, even with the Channeler class in Midnight. This was less of a problem in Midnight than it was in 3.5, but its still there.
- Bad wonky CR\EL system which is all but usless in Midnight since magic items are rare.
- Reliance on magic items. Yes, this was mitigated somewhat by Heroic Paths, but the issue still remained.

We also looked into Pathfinder, but after playing 5 adventures with Pathfinder Alpha rules ranging from 1st to 15th level, we found it has all of the same problems of 3.5 I listed above, but makes them worse and harder to work around. So Pathfinder is out.

4E works very well with Midnight IME though. Here is what we did to make 4E more gritty:

- All characters have half the normal number of healing surges. Healing surges give back 1d6+ Con bonus hp at Heroic tier, 1d8+ Con at Paragon, and 1d10+ Con at Epic.
- PCs being at full health at the start of every day bugs me a little. I know why the designers did it, but there is no way to simulate long-term injury. I've added a house rule that when someone goes to 0 hp or below, they gain 1 Wound Point per negative hit point and they have to spend 1 day of recovery for every Wound Point they went below 0 HP, and during that time, they can still move around, adventure, etc- but take a -2 to all rolls, skill checks and defenses, and cannot regain HP above their bloodied condition. Magical healing could restore the wound points on a 1 WP per 5 HP healing basis to get them back in the action sooner. The warlord CANNOT heal wound points- only magical healing or clerical spells. You could explain the WP as whatever you like- sprains, broken bones, severe lacerations, burns, etc.
- Use the Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, and Warlord as written. Cleric and Paladin only available to worshippers of Izrador. Channelers are basically Wizards, but with a slightly modified spell list (combine some spells from Wizard and Warlock). Added in homebrew Druid class from ENWorld, but with healing mostly stripped out. Added in homebrew Barbarian from ENWorld too.
- Reworked Heroic Paths so that at each tier 2 feats are available for PCs to take that give them extra abilities or bonuses in tune with the theme of the Path. (sort of like the Divine Channeling feats in the PHB).
- Allow for the spending of Action Points more than once per encounter, and APs can be used either to grant an extra action, or gain a +1d6 bonus to any d20 roll. Two action points can be spent to refresh a daily or encounter power. I also tend to give APs for actions in accord with the character's Heroic Path, rather than after every 2 encounters. Every time a character takes an extended rest, they lose 1 AP, to a minimum of 1.

Thats it. So far its working beautifully, as 4e is more streamlined and contrary to what some claim, LESS superheroic than 3e D&D was. Also, because 4e is less reliant on magic items than 3e was, its a breeze to slip it into Midnight. I hope some of these suggestions help- if you guys have any questions, feel free to ask.
]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/196245.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/196245.page GMT
That said, perhaps Piazo's 3.75 (Pathfinder)...]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/200623.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/200623.page GMT
I ran into a number of problems with Midnight in 3.5, namely:

- The math is wonky. D&D 3.5 is built for superheroic characters, and it scales badly through levels. Witness the quick outpacing of AC by BAB, exponential hit point explosion of PCs over other creatures in the game world, etc.
- Complete dominance by casters, even with the Channeler class in Midnight. This was less of a problem in Midnight than it was in 3.5, but its still there.
- Bad wonky CR\EL system which is all but usless in Midnight since magic items are rare.
- Reliance on magic items. Yes, this was mitigated somewhat by Heroic Paths, but the issue still remained.

We also looked into Pathfinder, but after playing 5 adventures with Pathfinder Alpha rules ranging from 1st to 15th level, we found it has all of the same problems of 3.5 I listed above, but makes them worse and harder to work around. So Pathfinder is out.


Thats it. So far its working beautifully, as 4e is more streamlined and contrary to what some claim, LESS superheroic than 3e D&D was. Also, because 4e is less reliant on magic items than 3e was, its a breeze to slip it into Midnight. I hope some of these suggestions help- if you guys have any questions, feel free to ask.
[/quote]

I find this interesting. I've run some playtests myself with the 4e rules and I have to say...I'm convinced that they are less of a fit than 3.5.

4e is nothing more than a tactical combat system. One could make the same argument about 3.5 but in 3.5 I can make a non-combat character, or at least a character who focuses more on non-combat elements of the game. All 4e needed to do was provide more Utility powers and allow you to swap out Attack powers for Utility powers and I think it would have been better received.

Basically they made combat more interesting by sacrificing everything else in the game.

I also strongly disagree with the concept that 4e's monster ratings are in any way better than 3.5. At 1st level, I was able to make some challenging encounters. I've tested the system out at 4th, 16 and soon 26th level. So far, the standard encounter that I've made has yet to even challenge the group. They've crushed the opposition but it does take them a good long while. But it seems so easy to bring a new power that circumvents the monster's abilities or blows the monsters away. I tried two Ogres against the party and it was a joke. They were just boring meat shields, dishing out laughable damage. They should have been a challenge according to the XP system. I tried an 'tough' encounter and did a little better but by the end of the fight, the entire party pretty much tore apart the undead I threw at them and were pretty much a full HP's by the end (with plenty of healing surges). Oh and minion damage scales horribly. 7 damage for level 16 minions? The characters have over 100 HP at that point and so many AOE's that minions are useless at higher levels.
So basically, whether a CR or an XP rating, they are both out of whack.

The powers, in too many cases are just too flashy. I really like the concept of what they were attempting. At-Will attacks, scaling damage and the like. All good. But the game is too tied to a board now. Too many strict Adjacent, Shifting, Healing surges and AoE's.

The best concept out of 4e is that players can do Minor, Move and Standard attacks. This opens up the game very well, as fighters don't have to root themselves to the ground and Clerics can heal and attack.

I think that Pathfinder is a great start but will still need more work. But I no longer think 4e is a good fit for Midnight. But concepts of it can be put in. Bloodied status, Action points, Healing Surges (lowered as was suggested is a great idea) and the like are all great features that can be imported seemlessly into 3.5. I would like to import the action sequence (Minor, Move and Standard) but that's a little trickery. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/200751.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/200751.page GMT
Once again, for those of us who do not follow every nerd thing out there, please?]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/200752.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/200752.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/203825.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/203825.page GMT
In the 4E world, it's a snap. So a setting like Midnight, big on fluff, moderate on crunch, where it's expected for the DM to homebrew most of their campaign settings, 4E is a good fit for it just from ease of homebrewing.

Complaints about healing surges or endless abilities and whatnot are coming from people who haven't played 4E; it's very bloody. It would actually be trivial to tweak it to make it grittier, to add injuries and longer lasting damage effects (I've even seen some of the designers toss some ideas out there off the cuff).

I do agree that the 4E GSL looks like it's going to foreclose this avenue for FFG unless they cross the game line over. I was literally 'just passing by', doing my usual check-in on the FFG world to see if there had been any news on Midnight and 4E. Alas, not yet I see.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/213534.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/213534.page GMT
In the 4E world, it's a snap. So a setting like Midnight, big on fluff, moderate on crunch, where it's expected for the DM to homebrew most of their campaign settings, 4E is a good fit for it just from ease of homebrewing.

Complaints about healing surges or endless abilities and whatnot are coming from people who haven't played 4E; it's very bloody. It would actually be trivial to tweak it to make it grittier, to add injuries and longer lasting damage effects (I've even seen some of the designers toss some ideas out there off the cuff).[/quote]

I hate to burst your bubble, but the XP system of 4.0 is just as poor as 3.5. Building challenging encounters is just as tricky. At the starting levels, everything is good. At higher levels...the system is bad. Monsters have a pretty large HP increase and a slight damage decrease so as to make fights boring. I remember 3.5 fighting Ogres and it was challenging. I ran a pair of Ogres against the party the other day and...it was an exercise in boring. The Ogres just served as meat shields and with very few attacks, it was very easy for the party to mitigate the damage.

I've run several combats now and never have I felt that I've given the party a true challenge, as in a fight in which they've ever felt like they could lose. By about 1/4 into the battle, I know that the party will defeat the enemy without any serious problems. By about 1/2 of the way into the battle, the party knows this as well.

If by bloody combat you mean nearly impossible to drop a single character without running very hard challenges (as per their system), then I agree with you. But seriously, don't kid yourself:
XP system is just a flawed
Monsters often have one attack so having small groups of baddies allows the party to run rampant on them
Monsters have too many HP
Minions are great at beginning levels and scale horribly
Monster damage is underpar
Healing is way too casual know. It's on par with a video game and that removes pretty much any tension from a fight.
Character Powers can completely overwhelm the monsters. At one point my Dragon was Stunned, Immobiized, Dazed, Blinded and shoved around like a rag dog in combat. This was not cool. I also had a ghoul who couldn't even get into combat because they shoved it away constantly.

Sorry but I've tried 4th edition and it's failed to deliver. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/213545.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/213545.page GMT
Two ogres versus a PC party in 3.5 is 'okay'. Ten kobolds and one ogre against a PC party can actually last longer.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/213569.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/213569.page GMT
In the 4E world, it's a snap. So a setting like Midnight, big on fluff, moderate on crunch, where it's expected for the DM to homebrew most of their campaign settings, 4E is a good fit for it just from ease of homebrewing.

Complaints about healing surges or endless abilities and whatnot are coming from people who haven't played 4E; it's very bloody. It would actually be trivial to tweak it to make it grittier, to add injuries and longer lasting damage effects (I've even seen some of the designers toss some ideas out there off the cuff).

I do agree that the 4E GSL looks like it's going to foreclose this avenue for FFG unless they cross the game line over. I was literally 'just passing by', doing my usual check-in on the FFG world to see if there had been any news on Midnight and 4E. Alas, not yet I see.[/quote]

Registered just to reply to this... I normally only post on the AtS forums, but hey...

Ok, first, 4E is far from the easiest thing to setup and play, and it's far from a good fit.

My vote for best system for ease of use, setup, play, speed, and versatility is the SIEGE system used by Castles and Crusades. If you've never played it, don't even bother commenting, just read this:

http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/cnc/why_play_cnc.html

If Midnight is to ever move to a new system, I think a Ground Up Players Handbook for Midnight written with the SIEGE system will Midnight justice and I know it would garner a lot of players who already use the SIEGE system. Cheers.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/225665.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/225665.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/228462.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/228462.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/268924.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/268924.page GMT
Castles and Crusades isn't much more than a cleaner system of 2nd edition D&D. It has as limited character development as D&D 4th edition. 3.5 fought hard to make classes such as the Fighter at least viable and interesting. C&C returns the fighter back into the most boring class ever. The system really just returns to the age old problem of "I attack." Next round: "I attack again."

At least Pathfinder tries to include combat maneuvers (although I don't care for the execution) and a lot more feats which require choices to be made during combat. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269024.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269024.page GMT
From what you've discussed, I can see the following:
- D&D 3.5 is not satisfying as a rules set for Midnight
- D&D 4E is even worse
- Castles & Crusades is not a good fit either.

Common sense dictates that FFG creates its own rules system for Midnight. That way, you have rules that implement the feeling conveyed by the setting (that's usually where generic systems fail to deliver). On the plus side, FFG is then no longer tied by silly GSL licences

I really hope FFG will revive the setting in a new edition, with a rules system that does the setting justice.

Just for the pleasure of giving my own opinion ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269038.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269038.page GMT
I think it's own system would be a better idea. But it's a lot of work and for, likely, very little gain in their part. FFG seems to be focusing on the games that will get them money, which are board games and miniature games.

3.5 is serviceable. It's been used, it's familiar, it works. It's just not flashy. Using the Pathfinder system is a step in the right direction. Or using various 'mods' (such as some of the ideas from Game of Thrones).

Midnight is a world that cries out for gritty combat, which is one thing that D&D doesn't do very well. Some people feel that Warhammer RPG is a better model for gritty combat, but truly, it's just a clone of D&D 3.5 but with paired down HP's and a better armour system (but also a far more abusive armour system).

Yeah, maybe it's own system is the way to go. But it's a lot of work.

Say FFG, if you want, I'll offer to build you a new system for your Midnight world. =D

(Hey, a guy can dream, right?)]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269051.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269051.page GMT
I think it's own system would be a better idea. But it's a lot of work and for, likely, very little gain in their part. FFG seems to be focusing on the games that will get them money, which are board games and miniature games.

3.5 is serviceable. It's been used, it's familiar, it works. It's just not flashy. Using the Pathfinder system is a step in the right direction. Or using various 'mods' (such as some of the ideas from Game of Thrones).

Midnight is a world that cries out for gritty combat, which is one thing that D&D doesn't do very well. Some people feel that Warhammer RPG is a better model for gritty combat, but truly, it's just a clone of D&D 3.5 but with paired down HP's and a better armour system (but also a far more abusive armour system).

Yeah, maybe it's own system is the way to go. But it's a lot of work.

Say FFG, if you want, I'll offer to build you a new system for your Midnight world. =D

(Hey, a guy can dream, right?)[/quote]

Yes, sure 3.5 works... as long as you don't use combat rules

I understand that its own system would not necessarily sell that well. So, why don't they go the "Pathfinder road"?

Just take the 3.5 rules, tweak them (create an alternate combat system that makes it more gritty, emulate rules for illiteracy, lack of knowledge, etc: all that makes Midnight unique), and publish a "Midnight RPG", based on the 3.5 rules. That's what Paizo is doing with Pathfinder, and all bets are that it will work very well, as it is likely to draw people who did not want to move to 4E (but desire a cleaned version of 3.5), AND those who were disappointed by 4E (and I hear there's quite a large crowd of them).

On the plus side, you have almost complete compatibility with what was published so far, so you won(t lose the "old timers",everyone will be familiar with the system, everyone will be happy because all the "bad" points of 3.5 will be removed and replaced by Midnight-specific rules, and FFG makes money with minimal investment...

This seems the optimal move IMO... unless someone has a better idea?]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269063.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269063.page GMT
That's where [i]Epic 6[/i] comes out as a really appropriate alternative...
As someone proposed, another good choice for the Midnight setting is the approach taken by the designers of [i]A Game of Thrones RPG [/i](Guardians of Order) with its lethal combat system which encourages players to think twice before letting steel sing...rising up in level in AGOT doesn't make you a superhero by any means...]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269085.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269085.page GMT
There are certain things to take into consideration when re-doing part of a game. Small changes can lead to incompatibility.

You would have to:
- Modify certain areas. Such as standard actions, full-attack actions, 5 foot step, etc. To change any of that may unravel other areas
- You would have to recognize what makes D&D combat a little dull/slow. Fighters get many attacks at higher levels (lots of dice rolling). Confirming Critcals (more dice). Lacking description. Little room to add flavor (I want to smash a chair over an orcs head...I don't want to look up rules that say I attack at a -4, does it only do non-lethal damage and what is the damage level of a chair? 1d4? Why would I ever do that then? Fine, I'll draw my sword and gut him...)
- You would have to add something more dynamic than HP's. Gritty tends to mean that some combat will leave the characters scarred and broken. It would be very important (and difficult) to balance the progress of the characters while leaving them scarred. Ultimately, winning the fight and moving the story forward and being heroes is the ultimate goal. The trick would be to make them pay for every victory.

Other thoughts?

(Why wait for FFG to 'never' get to this. We could make our own fan-fic game, much like Pathfinder did)]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269087.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269087.page GMT
That's where [i]Epic 6[/i] comes out as a really appropriate alternative...
As someone proposed, another good choice for the Midnight setting is the approach taken by the designers of [i]A Game of Thrones RPG [/i](Guardians of Order) with its lethal combat system which encourages players to think twice before letting steel sing...rising up in level in AGOT doesn't make you a superhero by any means...[/quote]

I agree. It's the ever increasing HP. Game of Thrones 'fixes' this by lowering HP's in general.

I'm not sold on Epic 6, but I do like the concept. But in Epic 6, you stop gaining everything but Feats after level 6, correct? I think people really like to play D&D because of the constant new powers that their characters can get. Stopping a Monk at level 6 denies some mighty cool (if powerful abilities).

I think it's the combat system (damage stays static while HP's skyrocket) is the key problem. Not the levels in general.

Umm...except some of the spells. Yeah, some of those spells are stupid powerful. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269089.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269089.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269091.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269091.page GMT
I've seen this in Mutants and Masterminds. I really didn't think it worked as well as it sounds. I like the concept a lot. Nothing is guaranteed. But the d20 is wild and inconsistent. You roll like crap and you're done and out in the 1st round of combat. How enjoyable was that? I've also seen powerful enemies (in M&M) go down in the 1st round. You know what players do, when you try to build up an enemy like that? They laugh.

Even with re-rolls it's a little wild.

I think it would be a better system is the 'taken out' effect was removed for a 2nd saving throw. More like a Grievous wound is caused: Roll to see if you can suck it up and fight on. But then now you have a system that threatens to allow a character to keep going on and on forever if he rolls well enough.

I'm sure if it was played around with for long enough it might be made to work. I think it's a neat mechanic. But it's a little 'mathy' and a little random. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269100.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269100.page GMT
You can also get your inspiration from the Conan OGL rules: beyond a certain level, PCs stop gaining hit dice (they only gain 1 hp per new level, IIRC), and there are massive damage thresholds. It also introduces combat maneuvers, which are not feats, but you gain access to them as your level increases.

Actually I think this is a very interesting move: in one book, you have all the rules you need, and an overview of the setting for the players. In another book, which could be DM-only, you'd have all that is "fluff" (no stats needed), and the DM's secrets (creatures, adversaries, etc).

Btw, I think high-level play in Midnight is highly unlikely

What *I* would like to see (as a player):
- I describe an action. No, the DM does not tell me "you can't do that, it's not covered in the rules". Exit wargaming D&D... I can do as many actions I want (no more questions like "is this a standard action or a fast action or whatever), but mechanically, the more ambitious I am, the more chances I have to fail (for each supplementary action, I get a -5 to ALL my rolls (-5 to all rolls for 2 actions, -10 for 3 actions, etc)
- DM allows me to *try*, even though it is almost impossible. I like the idea that I can at least *try* something (even though it will probably fail: see above). No more math or complicated rules: if I try something that is not "standard", then I accept that it's a DM's judgement call.
- good ideas should be rewarded with "tactical bonuses"
- combat system is deadly: yes, you can deal lots of damage, but so can do your opponents. So choose your battles carefully. There you insert the "no more HPs beyond x level" and the massive damage threshold rule. Also there should be a rule like "you give damage equal to your weapon + your character level": a seasoned veteran knows how to strike where it hurts
- Emphasis should be put when things are prepared (ambush and surprise attacks, decoys, terrain reconnaissance, etc, should all give bonuses once the fight begins). On the contrary, any "rushed" actions (like stupidly getting into a fight without minimal observation) should give minuses. Once again, this is a "choose your battle" mantra.
- when reduced to 0 hp, PCs are not unconscious, but suffer -x malus to their actions. And now each time they are wounded, they roll on a severe wound table (torn limb, etc). That way, (remember that your HP is limited), if you keep fighting when hurt, you take a severe risk of permanent wounds (missing limb, etc) or even death.
- with a "normal" wound recovery system, they will be forced to flee and hide, just to get a chance to heal normally. Exit "second breath" and other nonsense that allow you, once a fight is over, to start a new one immediately: this is not a MMO, combat is a "last resort" in Midnight. Remember that access to healing magic is very rare...

Other ideas or comments?

]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269123.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/866/269123.page GMT