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1. During setup you pick 11 allies and the rest go to the box. The politian can take any ally that has been returned to the box in any phase. Technically he could take them all?

2. There is an ally (basil elton) you can discard to prevent an old one's attack. If you have the politian doesn't that mean you could keep using the ally to beat the GOO, and then take him back?]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203450.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203450.page GMT
1. I don't think so. There's been some discussion on this, I don't know if any official answer has been released. The question is whether those 'other' allies are actually sent to the box, or removed from the game entirely. I'm inclined to believe the latter, but I could be wrong.

2. Quick thought, but I believe 'discarding' the ally would return him to the ally 'deck', and not the box. Plus, doesn't the politician only get to retrieve an ally from the box when he would otherwise be able to get an ally? When does that happen during a GOO battle?

]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203455.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203455.page GMT
for 1. it says in the rules they are returned to the box ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203462.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203462.page GMT ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203479.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203479.page GMT ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203484.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203484.page GMT
Before, there was no distinction between being "removed to the box" and "not in the game at all." But this could be a key clarification for Kane. We have asked this question many times but no official response yet.

My feeling is that he is supposed to negate the times when you finally draw an encounter card to get an Ally only to find the Ally is not in the game. To me then, there should be no distinction in him grabbing this Ally. I think he should be able to get any of the 34 Allies regardless of which 11 actually started the game. The only exception being if someone already has that Ally in their possession.

For random draws, I am still leaning towards just that - a random draw; even at the beginning of set-up. Ma's is a toss up for me. I am sitting on the fence of allowing him to choose just from the current deck or from any of the 34.

As to question #2, once a GOO battle starts, I am not aware of anything that will bring back Allies. FFG is pretty adamant about making sure things that cancel a GOO attack happen only once.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203494.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203494.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203619.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203619.page GMT That is a Tome and requires movement points to use. You have no movement points in the Final battle.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203621.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203621.page GMT That is a Tome and requires movement points to use. You have no movement points in the Final battle.[/quote]

I couldn't find where movement points are denied. I've always assumed the final battle was in Arkham. Maybe its at just a virtual location?

Page 6:
[u]"If the player’s[/u] [u]investigator is located in Arkham[/u] (i.e., his
investigator marker is in the town area of the game
board), [u]he receives movement points equal to his Speed
value[/u], as found on his investigator sheet. A player may
spend one movement point to move his investigator
marker from one board area to another, so long as the
two areas are connected by a yellow line on the game
board. One movement point allows an investigator to
move from a location to a street area, from one street
area to another, or from a street area to a location."]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203643.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203643.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203672.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203672.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203675.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203675.page GMT Yes, you get them in the movement phase during the game - but there is no movement phase in the final battle so no movement pionts in the final battle. No movement points, no usage of tomes. I think that is what we are talking about, right?]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203683.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203683.page GMT Yes, you get them in the movement phase during the game - but there is no movement phase in the final battle so no movement pionts in the final battle. No movement points, no usage of tomes. I think that is what we are talking about, right?[/quote]

I'm sure you're right, but I don't think its perfectly clear. I've considered using Tomes before but usually didn't want to risks the sanity loss. Never stopped because I didn't think it was allowed.

In addition, trading is allowed and that's a Movement phase function. I agree that there is no statement that the final battle has a Movement phase. The ony phase mentioned, in fact, is the Upkeep phase and then there's battle.


1. Investigators Refresh
At the beginning of a round of combat with an Ancient
One, the investigators may refresh their cards, use any
character abilities, and adjust their skill sliders as though
it were the Upkeep Phase. Next, the first player marker
should be passed to the left. [u]Finally, they may trade
items among themselves as if they were in the same
location ([b]see “Trading Equipment” later in these rules).[/u][/b]

TRADING EQUIPMENT
An investigator in the same street area, Other World
area, or location as another investigator may trade
money, Common Items, Unique Items, and Spells. [u]This
may be done [b]before, during, or after movement[/b], but not
during combat.[/u]

And finally there's a picture of investigators fighting old ones using a tome on the Kingsport cover.

]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203690.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203690.page GMT No, it's not - not exclusively. Investigators can trade at ANY time they are in the same space with the exception of combat.

[quote]And finally there's a picture of investigators fighting old ones using a tome on the Kingsport cover.

[/quote]
Artisitc license I am sure. I am not well versed in the Mythos so 1) I always thought the cover was just a monster and 2) I always thought she was using a spell on Dunwich not a tome (though it looks like a tome obviously). Kingsport does look more ike a tome since he is reading it and not casting anything.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203714.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203714.page GMT See my quote from above. You must be reading it as way before and way after movement.

[b]This may be done before, during, or after movement, but not during combat. [/b]

At any rate, you are probably technically correct, though I don't see any real prohibition against it and several impliecations for it and thematically its probably OK.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203790.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203790.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203811.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203811.page GMT See my quote from above. You must be reading it as way before and way after movement.

[b]This may be done before, during, or after movement, but not during combat. [/b]

At any rate, you are probably technically correct, though I don't see any real prohibition against it and several impliecations for it and thematically its probably OK.[/quote]
Actually, I am reading the FAQ

[quote][b]Miscellaneous[/b]
Q: Exactly where, when, and what can investigators
trade?
A: [u]Investigators may trade any time they are in the same
location [b]except [/b]during combat.[/u] They may trade before,
during or after movement, which means trading does not
end a move.
They may trade [b]Common Items, Unique Items, Money,[/b]
and [b]Spells[/b]. They may not trade Clue tokens, Allies, and
Monster and Gate trophies.[/quote]
(underline added for emphasis)

Back to the movement though. It is only granted in Phase 2. There is no "Phase 2" during the Final battle. The phases as we know them are replaced with the 3 steps outlined under the Final Battle section on Page 22:
1. Investigators Refresh (which is the only thing that closely resembles a Phase from the "main game" - Upkeep)
2. Investigators Attack (which follows the rules for combat closely but doesn't represent a Phase)
3. Ancient One Attacks

If it is not in one of these steps, it doesn't exist. Trading was specifically added; movement was not.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203827.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203827.page GMT As for movement points during the final battle I believe that there aren't any cause there is no movement of investigators.

Finally you guys have addressed some good points but I think that you missed the biggest problem of all.

Unless I'm mistaken tamsyn has miss interpreted Kanes ability in such a way that Kane (if he had it) would be the undeniably best character in the game.
Both her questions imply that she thinks that when allies are returned to the box Kane INSTANTLY gets them. As in every time the terror level rises Kane gets an ally and if you have kingsport, dunwhich and pharaoh in Kane starts with the 23 alies that have been returnred to the box (see her first question).

For her second question, with the miss interpretations and thinking Basil gets returned to the box, her question makes sense (whereas other wise gaining allies during the Final battle is impossible).

If you read his ability and interpret it loosely its easy to see why this error could be made though obviously starting the game with a +66 and a bunch of extra skills is overly broken.
His ability only means that for the sake of getting allies the only allies that are off limits to him are those already aligned with another investigator. However he must still obtain allies normally like every one else.

BTW I feel I should share this with you all. Today I had 3 allies all paid for at Ma's. They were Basil, The Massager, and Professor Morgan. That Comes out to a +2 to fight (+6 to combat) , a +1 to will (+3 to horror), and plus 1 to speed. I was the bounty hunter and Shrub Niggrath was the AO so all monsters had +2 for spending. I got these guys for 7 monsters and 1 gate trophy. fun times ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203883.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/203883.page GMT Yes, you get them in the movement phase during the game - but there is no movement phase in the final battle so no movement pionts in the final battle. No movement points, no usage of tomes. I think that is what we are talking about, right?[/quote]

I like to think its like when you are in the outer worlds and you can't use any tomes there either. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204016.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204016.page GMT Unless I'm mistaken tamsyn has miss interpreted Kanes ability in such a way that Kane (if he had it) would be the undeniably best character in the game. Both her questions imply that she thinks that when allies are returned to the box Kane INSTANTLY gets them. As in every time the terror level rises Kane gets an ally and if you have kingsport, dunwhich and pharaoh in Kane starts with the 23 alies that have been returnred to the box (see her first question).

His ability only means that for the sake of getting allies the only allies that are off limits to him are those already aligned with another investigator. However he must still obtain allies normally like every one else.
[/quote]

I must address my apparent misinterpretation! I am not trying to munchkin my way out of the rules, just something we noticed.

Kane's written ability: Any phase Charlie may gain allies that have been returned to the box

Rules (pg5 KH) ..only 11 total allies should be used in each game. When preparing the ally deck, shuffle it and deal out 11 cards face up, returning the others to the box.

We obviously don't think he is due all the allies that aren't in the 11, that is due an errata.

If the ability said 'when gaining allies Kane may choose from those returned the box' then those points would be valid. But it doesn't, it says any phase and gain allies.


]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204032.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204032.page GMT
Being able to get an ally not included in the game is unbalancing, not because this character could be the only one ever to get such ally, quite the opposite in fact. There are several occasion that have you "discard" an ally and some allies allow you themselves to do so (like Duke for instance).

Now as an example let's say that Kane can pick an ally, he choses Duke which was never included to the game but was returned to the box during the setup. Kane can then decide to discard Duke to heal his sanity and return Duke to the bottom of the ally deck. Now there would be 12 allies in the deck and Duke (previously not included in the game) would be now available to any other investigator. (unless I have misinterpreted something and when you discard an ally you don't return it to the bottom of the deck as you'd do with any other investgator cards in the game...)]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204045.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204045.page GMT
Investigators are granted one, maybe two, "rule-breaking" abilities that alter things slightly. Being able to take an Ally from teh box when instructed to take an Ally is such a "slight" game-breaking ability. Taking all Allies as they are discarded changes too many things in teh game to be legitimate.

Back to the Final battle and movement:
@ allstar - [i]Trading [/i]can be used during Phase 1, 3 and 4 as has been issued as errata. So it is no longer a matter of interpretation or preference, it is law! But feel free to houserule it. For all practical purposes, I find that it only occurs during movement 99 times out of a hundred anyway. Because if you do it in Phase 1, the game doesn't change any from that point until Phase 2 which is then technically "before movement" anyway. And if you do it in the Arkham phase when you are both sitting in the same space, you could have done it at the end of Phase2 as "after movement." So these distinctions are so fine there is no point in even making them.

The only stand out difference would be trading in the OW. The OW is so removed from the Movement phase that under thr original rules, no trading was allowed. Under the new ruling, it would be. And this is the only thating that actually benefits from the new Trading rule.

@ tamsyn: The way you view the FB lack of movement to the OW lack of movement is a perfect ananlogy. I thought about saying it myself but was afraid soemone would jump on me because you do techincally move in the OW but are not granted movement points. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204066.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204066.page GMT
Investigators are granted one, maybe two, "rule-breaking" abilities that alter things slightly. Being able to take an Ally from teh box when instructed to take an Ally is such a "slight" game-breaking ability. Taking all Allies as they are discarded changes too many things in teh game to be legitimate.

[/quote]

I totally agree that the rules need clarification, because the way they are written at the moment allows taking allies as they are discarded, and this may not be the designer's intent.

However, there is a reason why you might get the ally as it is discarded. In games I have played the main way you return allies to the box is when the terror level increases (I realise there may be other ways, I have not studied this). Kane's other ability is to spend clue tokens to stop the terror level increasing. This would give an interesting quandry for the player - do you let the terror level go up and gain an ally but arkham suffers the consequences, or do you keep the terror level under control and not benefit. If he did not gain allies as they are discarded he would generally always keep the terror level under control if he could, and as an unlimited ability this also skews the terror level part of the game.

In today's climate it would seem fitting for a politician to have to make the choice between power and fear or helping people
]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204116.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204116.page GMT Let me make it clear that I do not think "as written" it allows you to grab every Ally discarded.

I think as [i]written[/i], you [i]could [/i]make a case that the language is loose enough to imply that. But I think it is so far out of the realm of possibility, that given the context in the game it is not what is meant - and so the other legitimate interpretation based on language is what is correct.

You still only gain Allies through "purchasing" them at Ma's or when an Encounter tells you to do so. There is no game rule that allows you to grab discarded Allies. So in order to be able to do so, a specific rule needs to be written. What is written on Charlie's card is not sufficient to make this change. It is merely stating that when you gain, you can gain from the box; not giving you additional ways to gain Allies.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204232.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204232.page GMT Back to the Final battle and movement:
@ allstar - Movement can be used during Phase 1, 3 and 4 as has been issued as errata. So it is no longer a matter of interpretation or preference, it is law! But feel free to houserule it. For all practical purposes, I find that it only occurs during movement 99 times out of a hundred anyway. Because if you do it in Phase 1, the game doesn't change any from tehat point until Phase 2 which is then techincally "before movement" anyway. And if you do it in teh Arkham phase when you are both sitting in the same space, you could have done it at the end of Phase2 as "after movement." So these distinctions are so fine there is no point in even making them.
[/quote]

I'm afraid I don't understand what your trying to address. Nor am I sure which rule your referring to. I never knew of anything other than trading or fighting that were arguably movement only things which could be attempted to be performed during other phases (cept monster encounters which I know about). Most of the items I know of which use movement can only be done during the movement phase such as tomes. All that I've seen state Movement for their phase of use.

Which rule are you referring to and how is it relevant to the game?]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204367.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204367.page GMT You made this statement. I am saying this is an incorrect belief as corrected in teh FAQ. Trading occurs whenever 2 investigators are on the same location - even beyond the movement phase. The only time it doesn't occur is during combat, which is why it is limited to the refresh phase int eh Final Battle.

What I was trying to explain though is that during the actual game, there is hardly any distinction between saying trading "only during the movement phase" and trading "anytime except combat." The one issue where they can't be reconciled is during Phase 4. According to the original rules and your belief, you cannot trade if two Investigators are int eh same area of the OW. The FAQ says you can.

That is all I was trying to say

EDIT
Ah, I see what the confusion is. I was talking about "Trading" but typed "Movement." My bad. I'll correct my original post.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204415.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204415.page GMT You still only gain Allies through "purchasing" them at Ma's or when an Encounter tells you to do so. There is no game rule that allows you to grab discarded Allies. So in order to be able to do so, a specific rule needs to be written. What is written on Charlie's card is not sufficient to make this change. It is merely stating that when you gain, you can gain from the box; not giving you additional ways to gain Allies.[/quote]

I disagree. There are other rules that are nixed by other investigator's abilities, so why not this one?]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204423.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204423.page GMT
1. It would be silly.
2. If that was the intention it would have been worded differently.

However, as with everything else in this game, play it how you want. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204445.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204445.page GMT You still only gain Allies through "purchasing" them at Ma's or when an Encounter tells you to do so. There is no game rule that allows you to grab discarded Allies. So in order to be able to do so, a specific rule needs to be written. What is written on Charlie's card is not sufficient to make this change. It is merely stating that when you gain, you can gain from the box; not giving you additional ways to gain Allies.[/quote]

I disagree. There are other rules that are nixed by other investigator's abilities, so why not this one?[/quote]
It's not a matter of "nixing" a rule in this case. What you are suggesting is taking an ambiguous line of text and creating a whole new concept: grabbing discarded Allies. For that to be justified, it would have to be crystal clear wording. This is how it differs.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204454.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204454.page GMT
My primary reason for thinking that the card doesn't mean what is printed on it is that that ability would be extremely powerful (and the character totally unbalanced) if it were read in that way. Which isn't to say there are never unbalanced and powerful characters i.e. Mandy, Daisy, Joe ::shrug:: Still, I'd bet money that it was just badly written (causing an unintentional ambiguity).

Tamsyn, just think of it this way, the text is "Any Phase: Charlie may gain Allies that have been returned to the box." If this were intended to be read as him simply being able to get allies that have been returned to the box without cost, that would mean that he would (if you owned all the expansions), start off with 23 allies ;'D this is beyond broken. There's no way the text is intended to be read that way. The average character starts off with about 15 points of stats. Having 20+ extra allies would make a character start off with more than sixty points of stats (plus a number of special abilities and bonus items). There's *no way* that FFG would make a character like that because it wouldn't even need other players (or even weapons) to dominate the game. It's clearly a case of bad writing. With the stack of allies I'm holding he would start off with +11 to combat and +11 to will checks and +6 to speed. This isn't to mention luck, lore, and sneak bonuses. There's no way. There's no way. Maybe if the character was called Charlie Kane the Incarnation of God, but he's only a Politician.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204463.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204463.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204569.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204569.page GMT
especially since we don't play with charlie due to all the disagreements!

I think we will continue with idea that when the terror level goes up charlie can take the discarded ally, or he can prevent it by spending a clue token. He would only get the 11 though, not all of them.

When the official line comes out we will alter our perception accordingly! ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204913.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/204913.page GMT
When the official line comes out we will alter our perception accordingly! [/quote]
I don't think you will have to...Except I don't think its merely "discarded" allies but allies discarded(returned) [b]to the box[/b] from the original 11.

My wife played Charlie yesterday and "convinced" me that's what the words say and that's how she was going to play him. OK!?! So we did.

She ended up with 4 allies (including the original) and stopped the terror level once. Mostly because she had difficulty getting the clues and we were playing Hastur and needed all the clues we could get.

It [b]now [/b] makes a lot of sense this is how Charlie Kane works. He usually has a choice. He can be self serving and take the boxed ally or be a statesmab and stop the terror level from raising. As you state, he's limited, like everyone else to the 11 starting allies.

Whatever the final answer turns out to be, his rule certainly could have been written more clearly.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248194.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248194.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248305.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248305.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248312.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248312.page GMT
"have been" means Charly can get allies that were returned to the box [b]in the past[/b], which excludes the interpretation that he can take them at the moment when they are returned. And if he could take any allies which are in the box at any time, he could take some 34 - 11 = 23 allies at the start of the first turn (NO WAY!!!), so the obvious way to read it is that he is allowed to draw an ally from the box if he is told to gain an ally (not sure if this only applies when a certain ally is named, or even when drawing randomly).

[i]Edit: Sorry, "the obvious way to read it" may sound somewhat arrogant here; of course that's just how I read it, and of course I might be wrong here.[/i] ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248378.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248378.page GMT
"have been" means Charly can get allies that were returned to the box [b]in the past[/b], which excludes the interpretation that he can take them at the moment when they are returned. And if he could take any allies which are in the box at any time, he could take some 34 - 11 = 23 allies at the start of the first turn (NO WAY!!!), so the obvious way to read it is that he is allowed to draw an ally from the box if he is told to gain an ally (not sure if this only applies when a certain ally is named, or even when drawing randomly).[/quote]

I am interpreting the term "gain" as right after (recent past) it is returned to the box. I think all the arguments have been made and I think your position is probably the majority one. But I think the grammar and word choice is suffiently weird as to require a FAQ.

In addition, although all the Allies are literally "returned" to the box, the statement in Kingsport also reads:
"Although 11 new Allies are included in this expansion,
only 11 total Allies [b]should be used in each game[/b]."

In further addition, the two rules for Charilie, when interpreted my way, may perfect sense for a politician as he has to choose between his votes (allies) and reducing the negative score of the game and/or closing stores. Your way produces a (too) weak investigator in two ways. One, there isn't really any soul-wrenching decision on whether to reduce the terror level. If he's got the 2 clues, he'll almost always do it. Why not. He still has ALL the allies available to him if he runs across them.

And it results in one of the weakest investigator skills, because it requires him to run across the allies, which isn't the easiest thing in the world.

If the investigators aren't concerned about the score of the game, Charlie is a next to useless investigator--boring. I'd only use clue tokens to stop the store being closed and only early in the game. And whether an ally is in the game 11 or the out of game 23 is really of no consequence to him. I guess his ability to choose the strongest ally at Ma's vs. everyone else's only 1/3rd chance may be enough to consider him adequate.

Of course, just because my interpretation makes complete polictical sense and yours creates a weak character shouldn't sway anyone.

We tend to keep score of our games and it made Charlie really interesting and the fact that he gained three free allies made him really valuable. Too valuable? Maybe.

We're going to continue to play him Tamsyn's way because its a lot more fun. If your way prevails, he'll remain my second least favorite investigator, right after Sister Mary.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248485.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248485.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248503.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248503.page GMT Oh, I am sure of it. Kate comes to mind. Lily Chen might be in 3rd place. And then there is all the discussion threads about who is better....]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248515.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248515.page GMT
I thought there was a spreadsheet that told you who was best? ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248519.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248519.page GMT
Oh heck no. Consider Kate for a moment: there's an encounter at Independence Square in which you see a creepy dude walking off with a kid. If you let that go, the kid turns up dead some time later. If you intervene, the dude transforms into a monster out of the cup and if you win something happens and f you lose something else happens. But when Kate intervenes, the guy's monster transformation [i]fails[/i]. Does that count as a win? A loss? Something else? There's no spot on the flow chart for "you intervened and a monster failed to appear because Kate is on the scene."

Lily meanwhile has a very explicit power where she can give up her focus to regain a sanity and a stamina. Or she can change her maximum sanity or stamina and get more of whichever. But people whined about how they were using her in games that didn't have Epic Combat enabled (which is supposed to be illegal because she's a Kingsport card, but whatever), and that she automagically defeats Yig in combat (which she does). So they instituted a nerf to her that made her a second or third rate character most likely... but no one really knows what the nerf specifically is. She can now only regain Sanity [i]or[/i] stamina, but no one knows if she can still regain 2 points in a turn or not.

[quote]I thought there was a spreadsheet that told you who was best? [/quote]

There's one that tells you who is the best at succeeding at specific kinds of checks. That's not especially similar. For example: the Redeemed Cultist has a Lore of 6, which makes her a very good spellcaster. But Daisy is a much better spellcaster despite her Lore of 5.

-Frank]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248566.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248566.page GMT Actually, there is nothing illegal about this. Epic is a [i]variant [/i]that can be packaged with Kingsport [i]or not[/i], or any of the other ways to play [i]or not[/i]. Playing with Kingsport investigators does not mean you must play with every variant in the expansion. Heck, it doesn't even mean you must play with Kingsport itself.

Note, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with the power of her abilities or people "nerfing" her, just this statement alone.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248630.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248630.page GMT
There are really only two ways you can rephrase this guy's ability.

1. Whenever he wants, Charlie receives any and all allies he wants that are inside the cardboard box your game came in.

2. At any time in the game, if Charlie gains an Ally, he is able to take that Ally even if it has been removed from play.

Since Charlie's ability to keep the terror level down using clue tokens is MAJOR, I'm guessing his Connections ability isn't supposed to be as crazy-awesome.

The only thing that needs clarifying, really, is whether "returned to the box" refers to characters that were returned to the box before the game started or not.

To say that interpretation #2 nerfs the character and makes Charlie one of the weakest in the game is exaggerating: Amanda Sharpe draws an extra Skill and discards the one she doesn't want. Personally I think Allies are way more useful than Skills, and they are also much rarer and much MUCH more expensive to buy in game. The magician draws an extra spell to choose from. He doesn't even get to keep it.

Charlie does not have Ultimate Cosmic Power. He'd be a GOO if he did. Until a ruling comes down from On High, let's be sensible hmm?]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248731.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248731.page GMT
This is pretty clear IMO. DH rules page 4:
[quote]When preparing the Ally deck, shuffle it and
deal out 11 cards faceup, [b]returning the others to the box[/b].[/quote]
They had been returned to the box, so Charly can get them...at least if there is no rules passage that I'm not aware of and that contradicts this passage.

[quote=jeffszusz]Since Charlie's ability to keep the terror level down using clue tokens is MAJOR, I'm guessing his Connections ability isn't supposed to be as crazy-awesome.[/quote]
Amusingly, that's the ability I most often forget, though I admit it's useful (damn you, "Family found butchered"!). ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248745.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248745.page GMT
There are really [b]only [/b]two ways you can rephrase this guy's ability.

1. Whenever he wants, Charlie receives any and all allies he wants that are inside the cardboard box your game came in.
....let's be sensible hmm?[/quote]
OK. There ARE other interpretations.

[quote=jeffszusz]Since Charlie's ability to keep the terror level down using clue tokens is MAJOR...[/quote]
Why is this MAJOR? These aren't doom tokens. I don't think most players would really much care about the Terror Track unless you're playing for score or playing with the Blight cards. I think if you look at the statistic thread detail, a great deal of players don't even bother with the score.

The only other concern is the General Store closing and only if you haven't bought yet. For me, that's hardly ever.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248753.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248753.page GMT
The RAW isn't quite working out in Charlie's case, so an assumption that Charlie isn't supposed to be "The Most Awesomest Guy Ever, Who Wins Automatically Because He's Just That Freaking Cool," leads to the interpretation that he doesn't automagically get all the allies that aren't currently at Ma's Boarding House.

The ability is called "Connections" not "I am Legion."

*edit*: sorry HëllRÆZØR, only the first sentence was directed to you specifically, in regards to the rules on DH page 4.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248767.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248767.page GMT
The ability is called "Connections" not "I am Legion." [/quote]
Sorry for the confusion: I first inserted a quote from you that didn't make much sense in that context, and then corrected it. I suppose you refer to the initial post here? ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248782.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/248782.page GMT
Oh heck no. Consider Kate for a moment: there's an encounter at Independence Square in which you see a creepy dude walking off with a kid. If you let that go, the kid turns up dead some time later. If you intervene, the dude transforms into a monster out of the cup and if you win something happens and f you lose something else happens. But when Kate intervenes, the guy's monster transformation [i]fails[/i]. Does that count as a win? A loss? Something else? There's no spot on the flow chart for "you intervened and a monster failed to appear because Kate is on the scene."[/quote]

Does the test say "transforms into" or appears? If it says transforms into then I'd be tempted to rule that in this instance the monster isn't appearing at all, it was already there in disguise when Kate arrived. Kate has to face the monster. That's how I'd go with that particular card (if that is indeed the text). But I agree with your main point : Kate does run into confusing situations.


[quote]
Lily meanwhile has a very explicit power where she can give up her focus to regain a sanity and a stamina. Or she can change her maximum sanity or stamina and get more of whichever. But people whined about how they were using her in games that didn't have Epic Combat enabled (which is supposed to be illegal because she's a Kingsport card, but whatever), and that she automagically defeats Yig in combat (which she does). So they instituted a nerf to her that made her a second or third rate character most likely... but no one really knows what the nerf specifically is. She can now only regain Sanity [i]or[/i] stamina, but no one knows if she can still regain 2 points in a turn or not.
[/quote]

I'm a whiner. Not just because of the final battle. I really dislike the idea of toggling the Sanity/stamina slider back & forth during one upkeep to gain 1 point back of each. Similarly I dislike the idea that +2 in either direction = two increases. My preference is to compare starting & ending position : (a) slider in same spot = no increase; (b) sanity or stanina max increased by 1 or 2 spots = +1 to that stat. I think I'll stick with playing Lily that way pretty much reagrdless of what the official line becomes. That's my preference yours may vary. Feel free to whine away about the other point of view as I have about mine.

However, IMO as a general rule all character special abilities should no longer be available following the pre-final battle upkeep. Similarly that should be the last chance to use your focus. That cuts out the problem with Lily & ridiculous rolls from characters such as Joe & Mandy. Again that is only my preference, i'm sure many (everybody?) will disagree.

Cheers -Mariana the ex-nun cultist

*edited to fix a problem with the quote highlighting*]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249028.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249028.page GMT
Oh heck no. Consider Kate for a moment: there's an encounter at Independence Square in which you see a creepy dude walking off with a kid. If you let that go, the kid turns up dead some time later. If you intervene, the dude transforms into a monster out of the cup and if you win something happens and f you lose something else happens. But when Kate intervenes, the guy's monster transformation [i]fails[/i]. Does that count as a win? A loss? Something else? There's no spot on the flow chart for "you intervened and a monster failed to appear because Kate is on the scene."[/quote]

Does the test say "transforms into" or appears? If it says transforms into then I'd be tempted to rule that in this instance the monster isn't appearing at all, it was already there in disguise when Kate arrived. Kate has to face the monster. That's how I'd go with that particular card (if that is indeed the text). But I agree with your main point : Kate does run into confusing situations.
[/quote]

To be fair, this is not a Kate-only problem. It also applies if a Elder Sign is at the location.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249069.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249069.page GMT
There are really only two ways you can rephrase this guy's ability.

[/quote]

I disagree, I think there is a third way.

3. From the rules 'For every point the terror level goes up, select one ally card at random and return it to the box'. Charlie may gain this ally, as it has been 'returned to the box'.

(this would being up the concious decision to let the terror level increase or not as I have described earlier in this thread).]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249075.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249075.page GMT
He is able to get help from people who otherwise wouldn't be available to investigators in Arkham because they've left town. (let's not even try to think about those who have been killed by the Southside Strangler!)

He doesn't auto[b]magic[/b]ally get every Ally that goes to the box (leaves town) just because he's cool.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249249.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249249.page GMT
that is probably what they meant, just not what they wrote....]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249257.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249257.page GMT
Instruction: You may take a piece of cake.

This assumes that the cake you take is chocolate. Just because the instruction doesn't explicitly say "You may take a piece of chocolate cake" doesn't mean you can take Pineapple Up-side-down cake.

If they meant the instruction to be so wildly in opposition to the rule, the instruction would have been more elaborate. It's very vagueness implies that it follows as closely to the original rule as possible.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249264.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249264.page GMT
You don't have to take a piece of cake, but if you do, it can be chocolate if you like. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249278.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249278.page GMT
The cake is dead. You [i]must[/i] take the cake. If you have cake, you cannot win. But you can give the cake to someone else if you have the chainsaw.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249291.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249291.page GMT I'm gonna have to disagree. While we certainly don't play it that way (gaining all allies ever), vague rules don't necessarily imply the intent. Under the rules as given, it is possible to arrive at the conclusion that he may, during any ohase, gain all allies which were returned to the box (i.e. all that were sorted out in the beginning and those which are later returned to the box due to the terror level).

I'm pretty sure his abillity is supposed to just allow him to always be able to gain specific allies even if they have been returned to the box somehow (no matter how). But it doesn't say that.

I don't think your example applies to the situation, and not just because the cake is a lie.

*edit*
And besides, the example is faulty. If the instruction only is "You may take a piece of cake", then you can also take a piece of banana-split cake with vanilla ice toppings introduced in the "Yog's interstellar cooking expansion", even if the base game only had pieces of chocolate rhombus cakes - they are both pieces of cake, so you may take one.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249295.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249295.page GMT
The cake is dead. You [i]must[/i] take the cake. If you have cake, you cannot win. But you can give the cake to someone else if you have the chainsaw.[/quote]

I love Zombie Fluxx! Coming soon, Monty Python Fluxx!

[img]http://fluxxgames.com/pics/SampleMPFcards.jpg[/img]]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249306.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249306.page GMT
Seriously though. We know the card isn't specific enough. Play it fairly and don't be RAW-Nazi about it.

The card also says he's a politician. It doesn't specify otherwise, so that must mean he can do anything a real politician can...

In that case, I declare that he's entitled to take as much money as he wants from Arkham, get a free Sedanette, doesn't have to pay for any food at Velma's diner (even magic pie!) and any Deputized character has to do what Charlie's player says or else he gets fired.

Edit: also he gets to smoke in non-smoking establishments and go golfing instead of fight Cthulhu... XD



The cake is chocolate, even if it's undead.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249316.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249316.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249319.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249319.page GMT
Seriously though. We know the card isn't specific enough. Play it fairly and don't be RAW-Nazi about it.

The card also says he's a politician. It doesn't specify otherwise, so that must mean he can do anything a real politician can...

In that case, I declare that he's entitled to take as much money as he wants from Arkham, get a free Sedanette, doesn't have to pay for any food at Velma's diner (even magic pie!) and any Deputized character has to do what Charlie's player says or else he gets fired.

Edit: also he gets to smoke in non-smoking establishments and go golfing instead of fight Cthulhu... XD



The cake is chocolate, even if it's undead.[/quote]

I realize you are mostly joking, but Playing by RAW has nothing to do with playing it "fairly" or "unfairly" or anything else like that. Not playing by RAW is the realm of house rules (fine) or arbitrary chaos (not fine at all). And labelling someone (even in general speaking) a RAW-Nazi (and thus apparently a person possessed of a "lower ethical" codex, whatever that is), is just silly and disingenuous. And "real-world" examples like that politician one don't apply at all to a game where characters are highly abstracted into a simpler form (i.e. this game; in a a free-form live RPG or something similar your example would be much better). Any number of characters in Arkham Horror don't represent their real-world jobs to any lengthier extent; that's the nature of the game.

We can have, in such an extreme case, a much higher percentage chance of knowing what the designer wanted to do with this guy, simply because we know that the way characters are balanced (which is more or less known through the strange eons program), that this character is probably not supposed to work that way. But we don't really know it, we are assuming that it is so because of a sort of precedent.

Note that I did say that you are probably kidding - "RAW bashing" is just a pet peeve of mine, especially in competitive games (which isn't the case here, unless you count the League).]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249337.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249337.page GMT
You might be having a go at me, but I have no idea what one of those are. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249352.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249352.page GMT Fluff-nazi would be someone whom adheres stoically to the "fluff" (i.e. background) of a certain game/other thing, and so on.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249368.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249368.page GMT
I just think it's silly to take part of the Rules As Written that you know are improperly written and need correcting and actually play the way it's written, word for word, taking all the allies from the box because that's "what it says." It's -not- what it says.

"Charlie may gain X that Y" is not the same as "Charlie gains X when Y"

"Charlie may take Allies that have been returned to the box." Those allies in the box are valid for him to take. It does not tell you to take any. You take one when something else in the game instructs you to do so: encounter or buying at Ma's.

"Any Phase:" is not "whenever the heck you want".
It means "At any point in the game where the following rule could apply."

@Tamsyn: I wasn't making a personal go at anyone, not even yourself. I was making a general suggestion to everyone that they not take the RAW so literally when there's an obvious lack of clarity. We KNOW there is a problem with the text as written.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249378.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249378.page GMT I just think it's silly to take part of the Rules As Written that you know are improperly written and need correcting and actually play the way it's written, word for word, taking all the allies from the box because that's "what it says." It's -not- what it says.

"Charlie may gain X that Y" is not the same as "Charlie gains X when Y"

"Charlie may take Allies that have been returned to the box." Those allies in the box are valid for him to take. It does not tell you to take any. You take one when something else in the game instructs you to do so: encounter or buying at Ma's.

"Any Phase:" is not "whenever the heck you want".
It means "At any point in the game where the following rule could apply."
[/quote]

I'm afraid that those examples you've listed do indeed mean what you say that they don't mean. Sure, it doesn't tell him to take any. It does say that he may do so though. In Any Phase. While this does not mean "whenever the heck you want", it does mean you can take them at any point in the game, as the entire game is made up of phases - sure, only when the rule applies, but the only thing preventing the taking of allies is the investigator's wish to not do so.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249394.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249394.page GMT It means "At any point in the game where the following rule could apply." [/quote]

Right. Which is why it is an open question whether it is supposed to be that any ally card that gets returned to the box during play is immediately handed to he politician [i]or[/i] that any time he is entitled to an ally he can treat it as if it were available even if it is in the box.

Both are plausible interpretations. Both can make some amount of sense when people have left town because of the terror level increases. Both make little or no sense when allies have been removed by the Southside Strangler and then raised as Servants of Glaaki. But which ever way it's supposed to be done, you'd still do it during the Southside Strangler Rumor.

-Frank]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249403.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249403.page GMT
The Choice: Use the 2 clues to keep the terror level down or take the ally.
Although this is an interesting take on Charlies abilities and does fit his character nicely, I'm almost certain that this isnt how he is meant to be played. I do like this alot though and would consider it a house rule as Charlie would definately be a better character for it, but maybe too good. If others want to play this way so be it. As other have pointed out, Charlie could potentially take up to 10 allies for free, just from ignoring the terror level and letting it rise. Seems a bit over-powering.

Being able to start the game with the 23 allies that are removed from the game is just silly and I think we all agree this is simply wrong and game-breaking.

I have always played him and understood his ability to mean, just like others have pointed out, that he is able to get allies unavailable for other players, when he encounters them or buys them at Ma's. This way would include all 33 or so allies for him to choose from when buying at Ma's and allows him to always get the ally during an encounter as long as no other player has it already. I shall continue to play this way as I am sure this is how it is meant to be.

This is all just re-interation of this whole thread, but I think we know how this is meant to be played, but people do have the option of house-ruling anything they like, so go for it. I just would not do this in a League game is all.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249405.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249405.page GMT I have always played him and understood his ability to mean, just like others have pointed out, that he is able to get allies unavailable for other players, when he encounters them or buys them at Ma's. This way would include all 33 or so allies for him to choose from when buying at Ma's and allows him to always get the ally during an encounter as long as no other player has it already. I shall continue to play this way as I am sure this is how it is meant to be.
[/quote]

This is also how I house-rule it. Yes, house-rule it, for it isn't what the card says (it's the only house rule I have, because due to alot of data on character power levels, it is an okay guess to make). But because this is a house-rule, I am not going to use him in the League, unless an official clarification is made, to avoid the issue entirely.

(If someone held a gun to my head and told me to play with him in the League, I would play him like it sez on the card though, as using house rules in the League is basically "cheating", and in competitive efforts I'm a firm believer in RAW. I know no-one sees it that way, and I am not calling you lot cheaters [I think it is self-evident what a cheater is, so no need to say that sort of thing], nor would I care if someone played it one way or the other: In the case of ÜBER-Politician, it is following the rules of the game and the League - in any other interpretation, you are ignoring advantages, which is perfectly legit as well. I just personally find playing with less than all your strength to be unsportsmanlike, but that "sportsmanship" is an ill-defined term and since it doesn't appear in the rules, it can be cast aside completely with no consequences. Ideally anyway.)]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249420.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249420.page GMT
I getcha. I'm picking up what your putting down.

Start Speculation - But if we had to bet on it, I think the way we currently play him is going to be the official rule in the end. - End Speculation]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249426.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249426.page GMT
We know it's not intended to be that way. If it were, he would be Dimitri Martin with 9000 Myspace friends, not Charlie the Politician, investigator in Arkham Horror.

[quote]"It's -not- what it says"[/quote] I was referring to the fact that it does not explicitly say so.

RAW Interpretation: He gets any allies from the box, whenever he wants.
This interpretation assumes that because it doesn't explicitly say to follow the other rules, you get to just take them.

RAW Interpretation: He has the luxury of taking boxed allies when he gets an ally by the usual means.
This interpretation assumes that the other rules in the game are implicit.

Both interpretations are possible, absolutely.

To isolate the text and assume that the other rules in the game are NOT implicit, and that because there is no explicit restriction, you can just take all the allies from the box, is to be a RAW-Nazi. (To gain an advantage, yes.)

To accept the other rules in the game as implicit, and assume that boxed allies are fair game when gaining allies normally, is more balanced, makes the game fun for everyone (not just Charlie's player), and is more likely by far the intention of the designers.

@Victimizer: a House Rule is when you -change- a rule from what it was intended to something else. Interpreting a vague rule that doesn't specify what really happens to actually make some sense in the game isn't a House Rule ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249433.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249433.page GMT Oh absolutely - although I think it is possible, to a small, but not to be ignored, degree that he might only be able to take returned allies from the original 11. I would still bet on the interpretation that he has access to all of them, and can take them when instructed to do so by encounters/tomes/etc., as well as being able to choose which one he likes when he buys from the boarding house. If I were a betting man anyway.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249439.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249439.page GMT
I'm just having trouble imagining a native English-speaker setting out to write a card that grants the ability as Tamsyn's reading it and choosing to use the phrasing used on Charlie's card.

I really can't imagine someone designing an investigator to gain allies as the Terror level rises and not just saying "When an ally is returned to the box, Charlie may take that ally" if that's what they meant.

-Lactamaeon.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249454.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249454.page GMT
We know it's not intended to be that way. If it were, he would be Dimitri Martin with 9000 Myspace friends, not Charlie the Politician, investigator in Arkham Horror.

[quote]"It's -not- what it says"[/quote] I was referring to the fact that it does not explicitly say so.

RAW Interpretation: He gets any allies from the box, whenever he wants.
This interpretation assumes that because it doesn't explicitly say to follow the other rules, you get to just take them.

RAW Interpretation: He has the luxury of taking boxed allies when he gets an ally by the usual means.
This interpretation assumes that the other rules in the game are implicit.

Both interpretations are possible, absolutely.

To isolate the text and assume that the other rules in the game are NOT implicit, and that because there is no explicit restriction, you can just take all the allies from the box, is to be a RAW-Nazi. (To gain an advantage, yes.)

To accept the other rules in the game as implicit, and assume that boxed allies are fair game when gaining allies normally, is more balanced, makes the game fun for everyone (not just Charlie's player), and is more likely by far the intention of the designers.[/quote]

The second "RAW" interpretation adds text that isn't there, and is hence no RAW interpretation. One should not view correct rules interpretations in forms of "does this give me an advantage?" or "does this net me a disadvantage?" That isn't RAW. That's wishful thinking.

The rules, if simply read, to the letter, allow what you take all allies returned to the box (it is explicit, by the way). There are no other rules one has to look to. Rules tell you what you can do, not what you are not allowed to do. Yes, the rules do not say you may not search the item decks and give your character whatever you like. They only tell you when and how to do this under specific circumstances. Similarly, the rules for gaining allies are explicitly mentioned on the politician's card.

Again, a real RAW-nazi follows rules absolutely. Someone wiggling out advantages for himself which are not in the rules is a cheater. I realize colloquially this is another matter, but I would fall into the category of a "RAW-Nazi", but I follow the rules to the letter and point them out even if such a case would automatically have me lose the game. "Advantage" and "Disadvantage" do not matter.

And again, I House-rule it so that it works differently, I do not play it this way. But no-one here is in their right to assume that people play it that way because they want the advantage. That isn't the case at all with all people. Nor can one know if this makes it "less fun" for these people.

I agree with what the intent of the designers is likely to be, but that isn't the issue at hand, and should have no bearing on looking at what the rules actually say. Intent of another person can never be truly known.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249455.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249455.page GMT
She has linked the two together to form an interesting side play.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249466.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249466.page GMT
The Choice: Use the 2 clues to keep the terror level down or take the ally.
Although this is an interesting take on Charlies abilities and does fit his character nicely, I'm almost certain that this isnt how he is meant to be played.
[/quote]
Why?

The KH rules insist that only 11 allies should be in the game. In other words, the rules say both that the other allies are returned to the box and that they are out of the game. If they are out of the game, then they are clearly not available to Charlie.

[quote]I do like this alot though and would consider it a house rule as Charlie would definately be a better character for it, but maybe too good.[/quote]
It sounds too good, but I don't think it really is. My wife, who played it that way, says she's not interested in playing him again. Why? His movement is 3 and none of the allies she got improved upon that. Essentially they turned him into a high Lore wizard who never got any spells.

IMO, being able to [b]always [/b] get Professor Rice at Ma's boarding house is overpowered. Of course, he can't do that until he's accomplished a few things (gets 10 toughness markers) and the game will probably be half over by then.

[quote] If others want to play this way so be it. As other have pointed out, Charlie could potentially take up to 10 allies for free, just from ignoring the terror level and letting it rise. Seems a bit over-powering.[/quote]
The terror rises when the terror level rises. It's not like Charlie has any control over when it rises. He can't make it rise faster. All he has is a choice stop its rise or take an ally. I'd advise people to house-rule it this way once and you'll find that it's not overpowering. However it is fun. Random allies are, well, random. Actually Charlie could get up to 11 allies, because he starts with one. On the other hand, he can't get allies that other players have.

[quote]I have always played him and understood his ability to mean, just like others have pointed out, that he is able to get allies unavailable for other players, when he encounters them or buys them at Ma's. This way would include all 33 or so allies for him to choose from when buying at Ma's and allows him to always get the ally during an encounter as long as no other player has it already. I shall continue to play this way as I am sure this is how it is meant to be.[/quote]
We've played with Charlie four times. Only once with the new interpretation. I'd already consigned him to my second to last favorite character. He's just boring and stopping the terror level just isn't enough to save him.



]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249470.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249470.page GMT The KH rules insist that only 11 allies should be in the game. In other words, the rules say both that the other allies are returned to the box and that they are out of the game. If they are out of the game, then they are clearly not available to Charlie.
[/quote]

Actually, it tells you to return the other allies to the box. To be exact:

"...shuffle it and deal out 11 cards faceup, returning the others to the box."

Quite clear on that account.

I find the "terror level or ally" thing, though lacking in incentive, a very fun house rule, visually speaking.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249490.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249490.page GMT The KH rules insist that only 11 allies should be in the game. In other words, the rules say both that the other allies are returned to the box and that they are out of the game. If they are out of the game, then they are clearly not available to Charlie.
[/quote]

Actually, it tells you to return the other allies to the box. To be exact:

"...shuffle it and deal out 11 cards faceup, returning the others to the box."

Quite clear on that account.
[/quote]
Not so: As I said and as I quoted earlier, KH says both:

[i]"See the “Kingsport Horror Expansion Game Setup”
diagram on the next page for the placement of the new
Kingsport Horror cards. The new Special cards, in
particular, should be placed near the other Special cards.
Although 11 new Allies are included in this expansion,
[b]only 11 total Allies should be used in each game.[/b] When
preparing the Ally deck, shuffle it and deal out 11 cards
faceup, [b]returning the others to the box[/b]. Players may
examine the allies to see which ones will appear. Then turn
the Ally cards facedown and shuffle them again. Allies that
are taken as starting equipment in setup step 9 will come
from this deck of 11 cards."[/i]

As I said earlier, we've played it the generally accepted way and are totally unimpressed with Charlie. We played it the new way and he becomes an interesting character, but hardly over powered.

In addition, add in the "Join the winning Team" (sacrificing allies, who are NOT returned to the box) and you have the possibility of a totally self-serving, short-sighted glory seeking politician! I think Charlie's design is stroke of genius on the part of the designer.

]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249509.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249509.page GMT
I agree on the Joining the winning team thing, it's quite funny.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249567.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249567.page GMT
...in addition (as someone else mentioned), there is no evidence at all that his ability is triggered when an ally is returned to the box - the opposite is actually the case, since it says "[b]had been[/b] returned", and not something like "when it [b]is[/b] returned".]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249618.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249618.page GMT
...in addition (as someone else mentioned), there is no evidence at all that his ability is triggered when an ally is returned to the box - the opposite is actually the case, since it says "[b]had been[/b] returned", and not something like "when it [b]is[/b] returned".[/quote]
Memory is so tricky:
"Any Phase: Charlie may gain Allies that [b]have been [/b]returned to the box."
At any rate, under any scenario, the allies can't be taken until after (past tense) they're in the box. The question, if you want to rely on this part of grammar, is how immediately in the past is OK?

The evidence is the term "gain". This allows the phrase to be interpreted as something happening immediately or when the time comes to take an ally in an encounter.

But the main tricky concept IMO isn't how far in the past is in the past but the word "gain". The term "gain" an ally is only used in Charlies rule (at least I checked a few of the encounter cards and the term was always "take".

Maybe the term "gain" equals the term "take" and maybe it doesn't.

But the real bottom line is that everyone can point to something that the rule does [b]not[/b] say to prove the other side wrong. What no one has done, IMO, is definitively say what the rule does say.

I agree that if Charlie's rule is interpreted in one spot to mean take an ally immediately, it would also mean to take all the other allies returned to the box at the beginning. But that would definitely be way out of line. But I think that outlandish interpretation is covered by the phrase that they should not be in the game at all.

I've been reading game rules for a long time and its not unusual when game designers forget their own somewhat exotic definitions. To me, its an exotic definition to use "returned to the box" when you may or may not mean "removed from the game." It's tough being consistent.

I hope my view prevails because I think it will result in a more enjoyable investigator, but whatever will be will be.

]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249790.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249790.page GMT
The text is clear however: at any point in time, he may take those allies which have returned to the box. No "maybe it means something else" or some such. Also, changing "have been" to "had been" doesn't change what Hail Racer was pointing out (though that doesn't matter).

"Gain" isn't really such a tricky term. One could see a sort of involuntary action involved on behalf of the character, but that also doesn't change anything about him getting the allies. Whether he gains them or takes them is completely the same.

What one should be doing is either: a.) forget about the thing or b.) offer house rules on the subject. The text is clear in it's insane ramifications on character balance, and is simply (probably anyway) poorly worded by the designer - can happen to anybody. Does need rectification though.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249835.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249835.page GMT ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249840.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249840.page GMT [/quote]

It's on my open question list: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/list/10131.page

I chatted with Kevin through email yesterday and he is fully aware of the thread. He is just trying to find the time to sit down and go through it.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249845.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249845.page GMT
He's a politician. He's supposed to be vague on details and cloud issues.

This way we don't notice he's taking bribes to pass corporate-centric legislation.

Fools, all of us!]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249850.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249850.page GMT

Looks like Jeffszusz has resolved the issue!]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249853.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249853.page GMT That's because all they've done is read the rule, not tried it. In addition, the weakness of Charlie argues for the other side.

[quote]The text is clear however: at any point in time, he may take those allies which have returned to the box. No "maybe it means something else" or some such. Also, changing "have been" to "had been" doesn't change what Hail Racer was pointing out (though that doesn't matter).[/quote]
I agree it doesn't matter much. I think I said as much. Because neither of us are arguing for grabbing allies in the present. In fact, it means nothing at all to the argument, IMO.

[quote]"Gain" isn't really such a tricky term. One could see a sort of involuntary action involved on behalf of the character, but that also doesn't change anything about him getting the allies. Whether he gains them or takes them is completely the same.[/quote]
Here we disagree. "Gain" is a really an unusual term to use in this rule. Even as you say its not tricky, you follow up with "One [u]could[/u] see...", that is, you find it necessary to define the term away from its usual meaning. There's really no reason to have used it when in every other case I've checked the term is "take" an ally unless the designer is attempting to say something different. It is this term that causes the confusion IMO.

[quote]What one should be doing is either: a.) forget about the thing or b.) offer house rules on the subject. The text is clear in it's insane ramifications on character balance, and is simply (probably anyway) poorly worded by the designer - can happen to anybody. Does need rectification though.
[/quote]
As I said early on, we'll be playing it based on my wife's and Tamsyn's interpretation or house rule, if you will, which means about once every 8 games he'll be available for someone to choose. The investigators have wide range of skills are some really strong and some are really weak. I really don't think the argument lies in whether Charlie is out of balance with my wife's interpretation. I think the argument is that the designer couldn't possibley mean what is written, so just what did he mean? As I said a bit ago, I hope he means it Tamsyn's way because its much cleverer and more fun.

I love this game and there's so much to it. And I'm sure Kevin's a little insane from it. But there just so much in it and so much that's so seldom gets used or so seldom attacks us, such as: visiting out of the way locations. awakening the Dunwich horror, rift problems, Darke's blessing, joining the Sheldon gang, the ramifications of the Inner Sanctum, being Wanted for the murders we all commit on cultists in every game, making a deal with the black man and so much more. There's a lot of cleverness in it and lots of exploration to do that we never just seem to have time to do. ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249859.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249859.page GMT [quote]"Gain" isn't really such a tricky term. One could see a sort of involuntary action involved on behalf of the character, but that also doesn't change anything about him getting the allies. Whether he gains them or takes them is completely the same.[/quote]
Here we disagree. "Gain" is a really an unusual term to use in this rule. Even as you say its not tricky, you follow up with "One [u]could[/u] see...", that is, you find it necessary to define the term away from its usual meaning. There's really no reason to have used it when in every other case I've checked the term is "take" an ally unless the designer is attempting to say something different. It is this term that causes the confusion IMO.
[/quote]

I agree with most of your points, except here. What I did was to show an example of what gain can possibly mean besides "take" and how this does not affect the results of what we are talking about here. I followed it up with an example to show that it isn't tricky, which I believe I did. I don't think it's necessary to crack out a dictionary over this, as I'm pretty sure it won't change the result either.

Also, starting with 20+ allies is definitely unbalanced. I don't think the forumites need to try it to know that. Maybe you meant something else though, but it was what I was talking about, and you responded specifically to that.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249867.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249867.page GMT
Hve you tried your (wrong) interpretation with "The Southside Strangler Strikes"?

And Charlie is a fine investigator. He has high Will/Fight and if you send him to Kingsport with his (right) ability he usually ends up with a couple extra allies.
]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249882.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249882.page GMT Did I ever argue that? I didn't mean to. Sorry.
There are only 11 allies allowed in a particular game.

My house rule: Allies that have been returned to the box (usually through terror level raises) may be (immediately) gained by Charlie.
He doesn't have available to him allies that were removed from the game during setup even though they had been "returned to the box" during set up. I see the literal argument. I think its a mistake.

The alternative is the Charlie has an advantage over other investigators when he runs across allies in the encounter cards or when he buys an ally from Ma's. In my games, we almost never buy an ally at Ma's and sometimes never run across an ally in the encounter decks but sometimes we run across a bunch. There's nothing to indicate he get's his choice of ally's at the setup. There's nothing to indicate he gets his choice of allies when instructed to choose an random ally. Everyone gets their choice of the 11 allies at Ma's. I'd say, Charlie gets his choice of all allies if the alternative prevails.

I think the alternative is boring and weak except for the part where he gets his choice of all allies at Ma's. I think my wife's and Tamsyin's alternative is balanced and interesting and very characterful.

I really appreciate the civilized discussion and await the final outcome when revealed from high. I don't think I have any more say.]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249885.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249885.page GMT http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249893.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/249893.page GMT
While it may be intersesting it's not balanced. There are too many cards that run up the terror level or just return allies to the box outright. There is even an AO that raises the terror level whenever a cultist is killed. Oh yeah, and when a monster jumps into a vortex the terror level rises... and when a Next Act card is drawn...

Compare your version of what Charlie gets when the terror level rises compared to Diana's...]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/250000.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/250000.page GMT
[list] The ability does [i]not[/i] trump the rule that only 11 allies are used in the game, [i]and[/i] only kicks in when an ally would be gained normally. Which means that the game is played essentially normally save that he personally is not affected by events such as the terror level increasing that reduce the size of the ally deck from the initial 11.[/list]

[list] The ability trumps the 11 rule, but only does so when an ally is mentioned by name. So while it would allow you to get Ryan Dean when he wasn't in the game, it would only allow you to do so if Ryan Dean introduced himself to you in a bar. And not, for example, if Along Came Jones or Ma's Boarding House was visited.[/list]

[list] The ability trumps the 11 allies rule all the time. If an ally is in the box for any reason, [i]and[/i] yo are entitled to that ally or a choice of allies, you can get that ally and not the consolation prize for the ally being unavailable.[/list]

[list] The ability doesn't trump the 11s rule, but it does straight up give you every ally that is put into the box as it is put in the box from play.[/list]

[list] The ability entitles you to gain allies that weren't in the game to begin with as normal ally gains (ex.: Dr. Herbert West introduces himself at the little Kingsport hospital but he wasn't in the game), [i]in addition[/i], every time an ally card would be placed in the box (ex.: terror level increase, strangler strikes) you can take the ally card and have him join your team.[/list]

[list] You can straight up take all 23 unused allies out of the box and append them to your character.
And yes, all of these are valid readings because English Grammar is really flexible and the past tense can be used in an immediate or indefinite sense. If you aren't Kevin, please don't insult us by claiming that you magically know which of these was intended. And [i]really[/i] don't pretend that you know how any of this is supposed to interact with League Scenarios. Recall for the moment that Scenario 4 removes Legrasse "[i]from the deck[/i]" but never mentions whether his physical card is in the box or not.[/list]

I [i]personally[/i] play it by the third option. I have no idea if this was intended or not. I can make a semantic argument for it, but I can make a semantic argument for any of the other options as well.

-Frank]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/250148.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/250148.page GMT
*Goes in search of a few clue tokens so he can figure out what the heck Charlie has been doing in secret while this thread has grown.*]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/250162.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/250162.page GMT

And no, I'm not going to argue for it, as this thread proves, that is pretty pointless anyway! ]]> http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/250230.page http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/preList/10516/250230.page GMT And yes, all of these are valid readings because English Grammar is really flexible and the past tense can be used in an immediate or indefinite sense. If you aren't Kevin, please don't insult us by claiming that you magically know which of these was intended. And [i]really[/i] don't pretend that you know how any of this is supposed to interact with League Scenarios. Recall for the moment that Scenario 4 removes Legrasse "[i]from the deck[/i]" but never mentions whether his physical card is in the box or not.[/list]

I [i]personally[/i] play it by the third option. I have no idea if this was intended or not. I can make a semantic argument for it, but I can make a semantic argument for any of the other options as well.

-Frank[/quote]

I don't think all of those are valid interpretations of the language used in the politician's abillity, but they are all valid house rules. The scenarios are probably the only instance where something is removed and not returned to the box (at least I haven't seen any other instance of something being removed and not being returned to the box).
Only the last point can be argued literally (and you forgot that even there he would gain the allies that were later returned to the box due to other means), as everything else creates strictures which are not in the rules of the game or in Charlie Kane's rules.
Again, I also play by option 3, as as house rule.

@Mageith
I see, you are talking about a house rule. I got confused because you seem to try to argue that your house rule is based on a literal rules interpretation (for example: [quote=mageith]here's nothing to indicate he get's his choice of ally's at the setup. There's nothing to indicate he gets his choice of allies when instructed to choose an random ally.[/quote] )
You don't have to argue any points when you are invoking a house rule - i