4E Midnight?

So, will Midnight be converted to 4th Edition, or will it go non-d20? I'm just curious.

My guess is that it'll stay d20, ie not 4E.

What sensible reason would there be for switching to 4E?

PhoenixAndy wrote:My guess is that it'll stay d20, ie not 4E.

What sensible reason would there be for switching to 4E?

Well, 4E is a cleaner system than 3.5E, it will allow them to be up to date with the mechanics, so 4E players will be more inclined to bridge over, and the game will run smoother.

Tashiro wrote:So, will Midnight be converted to 4th Edition, or will it go non-d20? I'm just curious.

I hope that Fantasy Flight Games develops and releases Midnight in a 4th Edition rules standard. As you noted, Tashiro, the D&D 4th Edition rules seem to be streamlined and more fun. Perhaps FFG shall take the Midnight setting in that direction to tap into the well spring of new players Wizards of the Coast is hoping to woo to D&D.

I support a 4th Edition compliant Midnight setting. But, nobody knows except FFG's managers. Hopefully, they'll share their intentions with the public soon.

Don (Greyson)
West Jordan, Utah

Yeah, that's great and all, but what about us poor saps who've been supporting Midnight, the very reason that the line still exists, unlike all of FFGs other RPGs, are we then supposed to buy all the books again, just because someone decided to drag it onboard the 4E bandwagon?

The day that happens, is the day I vote with my wallet.

Note: I'm not adverse to 4E per se, or even the idea of upgrading the system. I just don't think Midnight needs, or will even benefit from, a change to 4E

PhoenixAndy wrote:Yeah, that's great and all, but what about us poor saps who've been supporting Midnight, the very reason that the line still exists, unlike all of FFGs other RPGs, are we then supposed to buy all the books again, just because someone decided to drag it onboard the 4E bandwagon?

The day that happens, is the day I vote with my wallet.

Note: I'm not adverse to 4E per se, or even the idea of upgrading the system. I just don't think Midnight needs, or will even benefit from, a change to 4E

Of course you vote with your wallet. So does everyone else.
I've looked at Midnight, and it is a great setting, and I think that 4E would benefit it greatly. Characters would be created faster, the system would be faster, combat would be faster, levelling would be faster, and everything would be more intuitive.

So, I can only see this as a Good Thing.

Personally I'd love to see a non-d20 version of Midnight. It's always looked like a good setting but I just don't have the time to stripe all the d20 stuff from it to use it right.

lordmalachdrim wrote:Personally I'd love to see a non-d20 version of Midnight. It's always looked like a good setting but I just don't have the time to stripe all the d20 stuff from it to use it right.

Of course, this comes with another problem -- finding a set of mechanics which suits the game's flavour and the paradigm. It isn't enough to just make rules, the rules have to fit the feel of the setting. d20 is not as bad as people make it out to be, but it is math-intensive, too much so I feel. That's why I think 4E will be a great idea.

On top of that - if you make another game mechanic system for Midnight, you'll have to deal with people who are upset at the fact they'd have to convert their old characters over - which may not be as smooth as people might hope, while you have others who simply do not wish to learn 'yet another game system'. Unless the system is incredible, you'll be losing out there.

I'm speaking from experience - my company's released an RPG, and the first thing that I have to deal with is the hesitation people have of picking up something when they don't recognize the game system. And designing a game system, with all the nit-picky rules that you need to come up with, is a pain.

4E may just simply be the best way to go, as far as time and resources are concerned.

I played and enjoyed d20 when it first came out but got disgusted with the fact that everything seemed to be going to it. Games I loved were suddenly duel stated or had a d20 version. It became harder and harder to find material for other games because the local stores would only stock d20, and then 3.5 came along and I walked.

Since then I've had a great time with the other games I played before d20, and new games I've found. As for being math intensive I disagree, but then I don't believe that simple = better. If I did I wouldn't still be playing the games I do (HackMaster, Alternity, Shadowrun, and Palladium to name some).

I really like the world and themes of Midnight, but also I feel d20 is a poor fit for those themes.

Once I planned to do a HARP conversion*, now perhaps a WFRP version would be more appropriate?

*) HARP is (in my mind) ICE's successor game to MERP, Middle-Earth Role-Playing. And, as we all know, Midnight is Middle-Earth in disguise. So I felt the marriage was natural, at least until I was disheartened by the alien views of the ICE forumites.

You know I never thought of trying to convert it to HARP. Though that does sound interesting. I kept thinking of trying to convert to RoleMaster. MERP was a good game but every time I tried to run it I'd get players that just wanted to replay the books.

I for one do hope they convert it to 4e. Dragonstar was one of my favorite campaign settings. When 3.5 came out, FFG chose not to convert it to 3.5 and shortly afterwards stopped supporting it. Now it's difficult to even find anyone who plays it anymore.

Hi Guys. A WFRP player here but I've always had a suspicion I'd love the Midnight setting!

I was just curious, people have mentioned that 4E is a cleaner system and I was just wondering how you know? I'm not flaming or anything, I'm genuinely interested in info about the new game I've missed (not really up to speed with D&D these days - I last played when it was the red edition

)

PhoenixAndy wrote:My guess is that it'll stay d20, ie not 4E.

So 4E has no d20 system? Could you tell me something more?

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35799
There's two reviews on the site, but this is the second one.

If you want to see what 4E would have to offer Midnight...

Thanks for that link, very interesting indeed. Looks like D&D may have come full circle to a nice simple system that us from the "red edition" can get behind

I particularly like the introduction of XP for all parts of an adventure, not just the slayage. It's all sounding very interesting indeed.

4e is definitely D20 mechanics - check out www.enworld.org to find out more as they have a whole huge section devoted to what has been said about 4e thus far.

Based on what I've heard thus far, I think that 4e would work pretty well for Midnight, IMHO. Yes, it is supposed to be a far cleaner, easier system to run and play in. Some of the things that strike me as working particularly well with Midnight seem to be less of a reliance on magic items for PCs and more reliance on a Race/Classes abilities to see them through things, including every class's ability to regain HP. (Think Iron Heroes or Star Wars Saga for these effects, non-magically.) They've also moved spells such as Raise the Dead and Restoration to rituals instead of merely 10-minute breaks in the action. Battlefield teleportation effects such as Dimension Door (or Dimension Strike, perhaps) have been kept in, but regular Teleport is also now a ritual.

While I am a fan of 3.0 and 3.5 (got nearly every supplement WOTC put out for each) and a big Midnight fan (got about half of the Midnight supplements out thus far and am currently working on the rest), I will definitely give 4e a try when it comes out.

CapnZapp wrote:Once I planned to do a HARP conversion*, now perhaps a WFRP version would be more appropriate?

*) HARP...was natural, at least until I was disheartened by the alien views of the ICE forumites.

I have also had troubling experiences with the (rude) forums at ICE. That also turned me off HARP. But I do agree that WFRP would make a good fit for Midnight (grim, dark, low-magic, etc).

I also agree that D&D 4e sounds like it would make a better fit than 3.5e (heck - now you have to be 16th level before you even get a Fly spell...).

However, I would imagine both systems would need some work to fit into the author's concepts of the world. And, like other posters on this forum - it would be a shame to see all of their books become obsolete with a new version.
Perhaps they can find some middle-ground and just post a 4e/WFRP conversion guide???

You do raise a good point. FFG now controls WFRP, and it would make sense for Midnight to perhaps be released with those rules.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't purchase it if it did come out, because I long ago boycotted anything involving Games Workshop after the dirty tactics the company pulled in my region. While I do hope FFG gets their money's worth out of the titles they've taken from GW, I wouldn't be happier if GW itself imploded and we never heard from them again.

Vitriol aside, I would prefer to see Midnight under 4th Edition, because I like the setting and feel of Midnight, and 4E D&D has me pumped.

Tashiro wrote:You do raise a good point. FFG now controls WFRP, and it would make sense for Midnight to perhaps be released with those rules.

I'm sure someone in FFG's accounting department has been speculating if they could make more $ by converting Midnight over to WFRP.

However, the current (Green Ronin/Black Industries) WFRP rulebook is filled with background notes/races/setting info on the Warhammer world. I think it would take some effort to strip all that away, leaving just core rules.

I have no clue what FFG wants to do with their WFRP property? Will we get a new rulebook? Will they just make suppliments and use the existing (GR/BI) rulebook? I expect this decision will influence their thoughts on the core rules for Midnight.
(That - and how well the sales $$$ of 4e go for WotC...

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Greetings to all of you, traveller sof Eredane...

Reading this thread, I wholeheartedly agree with people who think that the d20 system is not really fitting for Midnight.
The reasons ?
Midnight is a dark, gritty game, where survival is the name of the game. In my opinion, it is a rather human-scaled game, where characters are struggling against the harsh nature of Aryth, fighting the Shadow's minions who are mainly human and orc soldiers with their legate masters. Monsters are occasional, or at least should be in my opinion, to convey the Tolkien-like feeling that is at the core of the whole Midnight campaign setting.
The point is not to destroy the Shadow in the North nor even the Night Kings. I think the point is to fight for as long as you can, being a dwindling light of hope in a world gone terribly dark...yet hope is but an illusion and the end is near...
That's why the d20 system with its high-level characters able to withstand incredible amount of opposition isn't the best one can envision for the game.

One possibility is slightly tweaking the system as it has been done in Mongoose's Conan RPG (stopping hit point progression at 9th level, lowering massive damage threshold at 20 pts of damage...) to break the "superheroic" feel inherent to classic D&D.

Another one I would suggest (and will probably use) is using Ryan Stoughton's wonderful Epic6 system

In a nutshell, the idea is stopping level progression (with all derived benefits such as hit points but also BAB, Save Bonus etc...) at level 6, allowing characters to gain one new feat every 5,000 Xp afterwards.
A 6th level character is truly a hero when compared to the standard commoner and can hold its own against several regular opponents but he is not a superhero able to stop the onrushing wave of an army 300-style...
As he grows in experience, he gets more and more versatile, broadening his spectrum of possibilities without ever becoming some kind of Ã¼ber-hero, bound to to struggle against outsiders and dragons to get his share of thrills (check out all those nice D&D Adventure Paths such as Savage Tide, Shackled City or Age of Worms to see what I mean...).
In essence, a d20 character is the character of one campaign and then you can put him aside as he has reached a power level that sets him out of mundane issues...like the ones being the staples of a Midnight campaign...
1st to 3rd level magic is way beyond what an normal man can accomplish (think about it: flying, turning invisible, lobbing fireballs, breathing underwater...) and certainly makes a 6th level wizard a scary foe though not an unkillable one for one who has the advantage of surprise or who manages to get close enough to attack him in melee combat...

Check it out at:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=202109

It's really worth it...

(Sorry for being a bit long and for the occasional mistakes in English, your humble servant being French...so excuse my French, as you guys say

)

Tashiro wrote:Well, 4E is a cleaner system than 3.5E,

This is of course, according to WotC and people that are in favor of a new edition. One gamer's 'streamlined' is another gamer's 'dumbed down.' But if you really want to keep it clean, D20 roll + ability + modifier vs. other side's D20 roll + ability + modifier. GM interprets result, move on.

Tashiro wrote:...it will allow them to be up to date with the mechanics,

If MIDNIGHT stays D20, then it is already up to date with mechanics that have been tested and revised. Not to mention staying compatible with the existing 18 titles that the MIDNIGHT fan base have bought.

Tashiro wrote:so 4E players will be more inclined to bridge over,

Not necessarily. Will gamers pick MIDNIGHT as their 4th edition? Or will they stick with GREYHAWK, FORGOTTEN REALMS, EBERRON, etc. Seriously.

Tashiro wrote:and the game will run smoother.

This is a mix of conjecture & opinion. D20 MIDNIGHT games run great if you have a GM who does not let rules ruin the story. All editions of D&D have their warts and 4th will be no exception.

Steve G.
Project Manager
AvatarArt

AvatarArt wrote:This is of course, according to WotC and people that are in favor of a new edition. One gamer's 'streamlined' is another gamer's 'dumbed down.' But if you really want to keep it clean, D20 roll + ability + modifier vs. other side's D20 roll + ability + modifier. GM interprets result, move on.

As opposed to 'roll 1d20 + attribute + modifier' vs DC, take result. Or even simply 'activate effect, take result'. I wouldn't call 4E dumbed down, though. I've been following it pretty closely, and the book keeping has been drastically reduced. I tend to prefer keeping that kind of stuff to a minimum, while being given a variety of options to choose from. (And they got rid of Dead Levels, which I'm pleased as punch for).

This is a mix of conjecture & opinion. D20 MIDNIGHT games run great if you have a GM who does not let rules ruin the story. All editions of D&D have their warts and 4th will be no exception.

That depends on the desires of the players and the game master. For example, I want the rules to be used, not discarded. When I play, and when I GM, if the rules contradict the story, then the rules trump. This allows the players to get the drop on the bad guy, rather than having the bad guy survive for when the story says he 'should' be defeated, and it allows the good guys to lose, and lose badly, even at the beginning or mid-point.

Yes, I accept some players and game masters prefer 'story' with mechanics being something to act as a way to solve conflicts, but I prefer the rules to lay out the paradigm, and the story - if there's a story at all - to act within that paradigm. If the archer just happens to get their groove on and critical hit the general from across the battle field, kudos to the archer. General drops, army is confused, heroes get an advantage.

But, different players, different styles of game. And 3E bothered me specifically for the sheer amount of not-keeping and length of time it took to 'throw together' a 'quick' character or NPC.

Steve G.
Project Manager
AvatarArt

Dweller on the Threshold wrote:
Another one I would suggest (and will probably use) is using Ryan Stoughton's wonderful Epic6 system

Yes! The E6 variation would be an excellent choice for Midnight.

I'd love to see a 4e Midnight too!

I've always got the feeling of a fallen D&D world from Midnight as much as I did LotR, and I don't think the style of WFRP would fit for most Midnight games. The player characters have decidedly heroic destinies, and are all supposed to be a cut-above the average peasant, as in D&D, rather than accidentally involved folk as in WFRP.

I heard that one of the stated goals for 4e was to make it more adaptable, and it does seem that you can remove magic items, clerics and similar without harming the capability of the party to deal with things. In 3.5 settings this adjustment required either the introduction of new powers to try and bring the characters back up to par with varying success, or the GM had to wildly guestimate the possible threat of every creature taken from the main books.

The decision to clearly define the tiers of play (heroic, paragon and epic) now mean that you could run the game differently depending on tier- allowing for heroic characters to play through the whole hide-kill-run! style of game at heroic, and letting paragon characters play the 'going out with a bang' against the forces of Izrador.

Plus, Midnight pretty much has the 4e 'Points of Light' setup well established already : )