[OFF] Other Crappy RPGs...

Ok... Taking a ride on the other topic...

Which are the RPGs you guys despise the most?

Any D20.
Paranoia.
In Nomine.
Anything by White Wolf.

D20 and D&D: Forgotten realms, Eberron and Dragonlance get extra doses of abuse for suckiness, bad novels and cheesy background gamebooks, d20 does indeed suck and these 3 settings suck harder than suck.

Castle Falkenstein: one of the best settings EVER in one of the worst systems EVER, had it a system to match the background it would have been a classic masterpiece.

Marvel RPG- I HATE superhero rpg's

Star Wars RPG- but than again Star Wars just blows anyway.

Gurps- particularly since I think Savage Worlds does generic role play better now making gurps feel acient.. some good background books though

Anything Wrestling rpg's

Star Wars in all of its d20 incarnations.

I can't believe anyone could hate Paranoia!

hehe

Myself I hate GURPS and that's really about it. I'm 50/50 on d20 as I don't mind playing in d20 games but I loathe GMing them.

D20, both the mechanic and most settings.

Any HongKong / karate / wuxia RPG.

nWOD (though I am somewhat fond of the old World of Darkness).

7th Sea - I acknowledge the fact it's a really great RPG, maybe even one of the best. I just can't bring myself to like it, I don't know why.

DagobahDave wrote:Star Wars in all of its d20 incarnations.

QFT. Thou shalt not make a prestige class out of Sith Lords.

That, and Legend of the Five Rings. As Sythorn excellantly summed it up in a totally unrleated thread:

Sythorn wrote:Not to mention I'm sick and tired of the entire western world portraying asians as demi-gods who are perfect in all that they do.

That describes my attitude to L5R quite accurately.

I also tend to prefer the old World of Darkness to the new one.

Note: despise is a too strong a word. I just wouldn't like to play any of the above.

I thank you for your time

Lord Gorthuar de Veris
Cult of Nagash

Oh yeah, I forgot about the crap and blasphemy Star Wars d20 is.

Though not nearly as bad as Cthulhu d20... (shudder)

Wow I'm surprised that on a site that fanboys constantly knock D20 and D&D as overpowered cheese the old World of Darkness is getting so many props... I'm just bored of playing White Wolfs horror games... but the new system is infinitely better than the old system... talk about min-max, munchkin style gameplay.... the new system is much more balanced and killing off the games super cheesy meta plot, thank god for that, V:TM was a GREAT game in it's first edition when White wolf was a crappy indie company making soft cover books by second edition it was ABSOLUTELY AWFUL... my opinion, thank you for your time...

The worst RPGs I've come across (and trust me, I've come across far too many for my own good)...

- Vampire: The Masquerade. Shows all the rough edges of an ambitious but ultimately flawed system. The other WOD games were vastly superior in content, context and mechanical streamlining -- Oblivion, Wraith and Orpheus in particular. However, I'll admit this could very well be due to the group I played with. An assorted crew of miscreants and dolts ruined virtually all game sessions for me, and I gave up after five or six sessions.

- Amber... The diceless system was cutesy, but horribly ineffective. And unless you've got a doctorate in Zelazney's Amber Chronicles, the information is virtually useless to you. Terrible game.

Burning Empires... What do you get when you create a system that has a separate and distinct set of rules for each possible activity you can perform? A sloppy, incoherent 600+ rulebook hailed as the second coming by the elite few who can decipher the drudge within. You're lucky to pull off 2 or 3 scenes worth of action, as something that would take 10-15 minutes to resolve in almost any other game can literally take 30-60 minutes (or more) to mire through.

Riddle of Steel... It was like the band Manowar made their own RPG. That works fine for music, but not so much for a game. I felt the game had a lot of promise, which was ultimately left unfulfilled by the very unwieldy mechanics. Sure, a very detailed combat system, but that's not enough to save this.

Timelords... Old school game from BTRC. Players portray themselves (and assign their attributes based on a series of tests performed during the creation process). But the level of detail was confounding and muddled. Players had blood points, stamina, health, about 50 hit locations, a zillion possible situational modifiers that varied greatly, and inconsistent mechanics in an attempt to suit any situation from any time zone/era.

Games with problems:

Note: Just in case: this is all IMO, and I'm sure that others' can make these games work for them. I can't.

5): Shadowrun: OK, this is a sad one. The setting is quite cool, if a bit overdone. But the rules ... are just too complicated, particuarly when you start to involve Riggers, Deckers etc. With the unfortunate result that it's hell to make a working character, hell to design adventures and hell to execute combat. Cyberpunk did this much better.

4): Dark Heresy: Again, the setting is cool, but the rules heaviness is really a big drawback, and the large lists of guns and stuff like that don't help convey that this game is not about guns and stuff like that, but is supposed to be CoC in space with a large dash of 'Fascism, the RPG' thrown in. Also, the DH forums just annoy me.

3): WoD: Old, New, I don't care. Vampire, Werewolf, I don't care. It just doesn't work as a group-game; all the angst-goth stuff goes out the window in favor of "Look at my cool powers!" And I was never too keen on goth-angst anyway; It's nice for depressed teenagers and wannaby 'dark souls', but not if you want an actual game. And the pretentiousness of it all is just sickening.

2): d20: It ruined what once was a great system and a bunch of wonderful worlds. Yes the rules are clearer, but thats actually a drawback; with more detailed rules you just get more complicated combat, and with more options for Feats/Prestige Classes etc. you just get into the min-max-munchkin mentality, which is precisely what WotC want, for then they can sell you a ton of book with even more options so you can create the ultimate combat monster and yeah, that's what RPG's are all about.

1: The game that should go unmentioned: And that's all I will say on it.

Dr. Rudolf von Richten

Gotta agree that Dark Heresy forum is annoying, I do like the game very much though... you don't need to use all the zuper kewl home brew rules and weapons... people try to do this stuff with wfrp all the time but I'm just happy with one and two handed weapons and a few extra special rules nothing more, everything else just creates paperwork and dice rolling to the ninth degree.

I actually disagree with your take on the whole WOD... it can and does work as a group game pretty well but like any game it depends on the players and as for all the super power bells and whistles... it's all about the GM. Have you looked at any of the Changeling stuff? it's pretty good, as for teen angst and the whole dark scene...lol, I was going to go to Wave Gotik in Leipzig, Germany this year which is going on as I write this... damn it I missed Unheilig last night

it's not all teen depression and all, it's pretty fun and many people in attendance are not all that young and Europeans do the best renaissance/medieval fairs, I have to say I have a personal fondness for Euro trash but that may be because I find Americans dreadful bores so better bad Euro taste and camp then no taste at all as is the case of American white trash hipster scene... be happy you are in the Netherlands after all if your bad boy they might send you to the U.S.S.A and it's really no fun at all

Heretek wrote:
I actually disagree with your take on the whole WOD... it can and does work as a group game pretty well but like any game it depends on the players and as for all the super power bells and whistles... it's all about the GM.

I just had to QFT, most people who criticize the WoD do so because of the power-hungry, attention-whoring players. If you find the right group it can be an amazing game, which to my mind makes it no better or worse than D&D. Plus, I grow weary of the stereotype that anyone who prefers a little depression and gothic angst in their entertainment (music, fiction, whatever) is automatically a whiny bitch starving for attention. I'm quite jovial, thank you very much. Well, except when I'm complaining about the latest game that was screwed up by a game designer/developer, but isn't that a part-time job for all gamers?

The Main issue with World of Darkness games is they are all about style and so called storytelling over substance.

It probably has one of the best character sheet systems in role-play, your character is defined by a 1 to 5 star system like a restaurant guide, very intuitive and easy to explain. The problem is the mathematics of WoD are shit - having 10 dice (which everyone bought as its so cheap,) makes average target numbers ludicrously easy, while upping the targets to 10 totally invalidates your skill. (Indeed in some circumstances it makes having more dice worse as your more likely to botch than with lower dice.) They did try to fix this in later additions, by changing the mechanics of difficulty to removing dice rather than increasing targets, but this made moderately difficult tasks impossible for average people - not an ideal solution again.

In defense of L5R its told from the POV of the Rokugani who are not the most technologically nor the most magically advanced people on their world, and who've been shown to be perfectly capable of some truly epic frack ups. Just they happen to have the worst of Chinese and Japanese cultural arrogance combined with and isolationist political model.

It's not as a much an "the asians are always right" as it is the fact that Rokugan is so damned cocky, has next to nill outside contact, and has never had to deal with serious foreign invasion bar the Shadowlands who are basically the forces of Chaos with a Jade allergy.

Vampire: the Masquerade & Requiem.

"Hey, let's all pretend to be vampires!"

'nuff said.

I've had loads of fun playing Werefolf the Forsaken though. Much of its appeal is in the spirit world, and how it relates to the "real" world. Also I like that the werewolves run in packs. Unlike the vampires who disperse into their individual machinations the very instant the intro bit has been ran by the GM.

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:Also, the DH forums just annoy me.

QFT

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:Games with problems:

4): Dark Heresy: Again, the setting is cool, but the rules heaviness is really a big drawback, and the large lists of guns and stuff like that don't help convey that this game is not about guns and stuff like that, but is supposed to be CoC in space with a large dash of 'Fascism, the RPG' thrown in. Also, the DH forums just annoy me.

I agree. The amount of rules is insane and seem to me as a whole bunch of fixes and contradictory bits and pieces. I've got the books but I can't ever see myself playing it seriously. Case in point, unnatural attributes with a further revision of unnatural attributes in opposed tests in Inq handbook. I was blown away by the clumsiness of it all.

I have to say that D20 sucks the fun out of most settings. Its like communism of the RPG world, everyting turns to different shades of grey.

Most Cyberpunk RPGs dont last long. When you tire of upgrading your characters with guns and cyberware you find out that the rest is a hollow shell that easily collapse. Shadowrun tried to shift focus, which made the game intreresting for a while longer (than the awful Cyberpunk). But, as pointed out, it gets to a grinding halt as soon as someone switches on their computer...

Ars Magica. Magic rules were genious (for its time), the rest not even moderate quality.

Toonz. After you drop a piano on someone, or pull a cannon out of your pocket for the third time, the game is going nowhere...

Vampire & Werewolf RPGs. Reasons posted above.

GURPS. If the game has not improved vastly over the last 5 years (I only have older rules), its right after D20 sucking fun out of things..

*************

Games Id like to defend.

Paranoia. With a good GM this game is hilarious. You just have to take it on the light side. I remember and old WD 'training' adventure where the players were told that one of the players would be a traitor trying to sabotage the mission secretly (all players got a note, one supposedly saying 'you are the traitor'). Finding out who the traitor was a sub-goal of the mission. The thing is that all players notes said they were traitors and should secretly sabotage the mission... Hilarious game!

AD&D, old school. This is said because I have played with no rules set released after the beginning of the nineties

If you take it for what it is (High fantasy with a bit of OTT worlds) its good fun.

Just to make it clear, im not calling these 'crappy' so much as really, really, not to my taste. and of course the usual caveat that a good GM and players can make any system fun etc etc.

D20. Just dont like the rules. And a lot of the settings (incidentally I think DH veers too much towrds D20 territory with all the talents...talents...blech!).

Exalted. *vomits copiously all over the place* Maybe Im being judgemental but i just flat refuse to have anything to do with it.

Cyberpunk V3. Horrific. Like killing off WHFRP and replacing it with D&D. Incidentally 2020 is brilliant. Lord of the pit, there is, a small parcel bomb on its way to you as you are reading this.*

Anything WoD based. I must admit Ive never actually played, just the idea provokes a similar reaction to Exalted.

TW2K such a great setting, wonderful source material....such diabolocal rules.

*the bomb is a joke, obviously

Cyberpunk V3 is really, really bad. Unplayable mechanics combine with a background that doesn't actually cover anything that is.. well Cyberpunk.

Lets see:

D20 (Any, especially games ported into D20)

World of Synibar (I know I spelled it wrong but still crap game that took forever just to figure out enough to test combat)

Prime Directive (the original)

Mark McMiller's Traveller (like Traveller, just not this abomination)

jadrax wrote:Cyberpunk V3 is really, really bad. Unplayable mechanics combine with a background that doesn't actually cover anything that is.. well Cyberpunk.

Ooooohh...dont get me started on that one....I resisted the urge in my first post....nnnggggg....must....resist....urge...to...spout...bile....at....V3....ngggyyyahhhhhh

Moracai wrote:Vampire: the Masquerade & Requiem.

"Hey, let's all pretend to be vampires!"

'nuff said.

"Hey let´s all pretend we are Ratcatchers, Coachmen or dwarfs with extravagant haircuts in a world vaguely resembling middleage/rennaissance europe."

'nuff said...

Being a roleplayer yourself, you ropably shouldn´t criticise the make-belief part of systems you don´t like. Seems a bit stupid if you take a step back.

Tanakor wrote:

Moracai wrote:Vampire: the Masquerade & Requiem.

"Hey, let's all pretend to be vampires!"

'nuff said.

"Hey let´s all pretend we are Ratcatchers, Coachmen or dwarfs with extravagant haircuts in a world vaguely resembling middleage/rennaissance europe."

'nuff said...

Being a roleplayer yourself, you ropably shouldn´t criticise the make-belief part of systems you don´t like. Seems a bit stupid if you take a step back.

Yeah dude, but vampires. Frickin' vampires dude!

Well, it could be worse. Like dragons or something...

Which reminds me of Rifts.

Which sucks.

Big time.

@ all who defend WoD: My rant was based purely on the fact that I can't make the game work, and I can't get over the goth-angst stuff. In the hands of others, I'm sure it's utterly amazing.

regarding DH: True, you don't have to use 50 different kinds of SP guns alone, but just having those means that the rules must be balanced for each and every one of them. Same thing with all the Feats (err... Talents, ... yeah, Talents

), Psyko Powers, Power Armour and Nuns with Guns. Even if you get rid of all that nonsense you still have to deal with a rules system that tries to support it, which means it's too much trouble for someone like me. It's really too bad, since the basic concept is sound.

Oh, and when I said Cyberpunk worked better than Shadowrun I meant Cyberpunk2020, 2nd edition and Shadowrun 3rd edition. I've got no idea how (if) Shadowrun 4th edition works, and I did not even know there was a Cyberpunk v3.