Ten things that I cannot stand about WFRP

The Brettonian Book has no rules for Grail Damsels, which are only a major pillar of their society.

The Skaven stats in Children of the Horned Rat make no bloody sense.

The economy is simply retarded in many key areas, I don't just mean weapons, Cloaks costing 12 gold to purchase separately and 1 silver with an included set of clothing just means sloppy editing.

I don't think this edition has used Orcs as a antagonist once, FFS Skaven do not have the be used in every sodding adventure.

Cathayan Longsword, Weeping Blades and White Wolf hammers - Having them require a separate SWG Talent makes no sense.

Endless crap Maps, why oh why did the best Cartographer get used to make maps of Norsica and the Border Princes, the most empty areas of the globe instead of the sodding Empire where almost everyone's game is set.

Language Skills - No one ever wants to make a PC roll a language skill check, FFS why did you not just make them Talents?

The Rule of One, clunkiest and most obvious half hearted stab at papering over a rules issue without having to think about it ever.

Kazak Azgul - why does this supplement scream D&D more than the Doomstones did, I mean how much effort would it have took to actually read up on the background and actually incorporate it before publishing it?

Bawds - Why did you take away the best and most iconic of the careers?

jadrax wrote:Language Skills - No one ever wants to make a PC roll a language skill check, FFS why did you not just make them Talents?

I have to defend BI/GR on this one, languages can require a Skill Test under certain circumstances (understanding an archaic dialect or someone speaking a related language, etc.) but most players fail to utilize it. I certainly don't blame them, it's easy to forget about the skill because it's not rolled that often and few campaigns (at least in my experience) offer situations where they need to be used anyway. However, since languages can be used as skills instead of talents, since some GMs actually do so, and because it doesn't ruin anything to have a character's languages listed under "skills" instead of "talents," is it really such a terrible thing? I say no.

11th - Grim and Perilous combat my a$$! In our last game it took more than an our to resolve a single duel. "Dodge!" "Parry!" "Not enough damaege."

12th - "Hey what do you know! I'm stronger than a dragon ogre! And I'm a bone picker..."

13th - "It's not possible for players to get their hands on a cannon. Or if they do start playing WFB"

14th - "Let's make a lot of books so that we'll get their money!" Actually I don't hate me for making a lot of rulebooks. Just because they get my money that way...

...

I hate too. Still can't stop playing and loving them...

jadrax wrote:Cathayan Longsword, Weeping Blades and White Wolf hammers - Having them require a separate SWG Talent makes no sense.

My primary criticism of these weapons is that they even exist in the first place. It feels too much like a hack n' slash game to have elite weapons with unique (and often better) stats than what can be found in the normal weapon list, especially for a game that prides itself on having a single "hand weapon" entry. Not to mention I'm sick and tired of the entire western world portraying asians as demi-gods who are perfect in all that they do.

jadrax wrote:

I don't think this edition has used Orcs as a antagonist once, FFS Skaven do not have the be used in every sodding adventure.

Because ratmen are kewl and sell books? Actually they are qute cool, but they certainly have been vastly overused. BTW, I think that Orcs did appear in 'Pretty Things' in the GM's pack.

Sythorn wrote:

jadrax wrote:Cathayan Longsword, Weeping Blades and White Wolf hammers - Having them require a separate SWG Talent makes no sense.

My primary criticism of these weapons is that they even exist in the first place. It feels too much like a hack n' slash game to have elite weapons with unique (and often better) stats than what can be found in the normal weapon list, especially for a game that prides itself on having a single "hand weapon" entry. Not to mention I'm sick and tired of the entire western world portraying asians as demi-gods who are perfect in all that they do.

Quoted fo truth, yo.

My sentiments exactly. I had a player who once wanted one. I asked him what he thought it looked like. Of course, he said, a katana.

I wanted to throttle him with a piece of piano wire.

a) I think the weapon system should be revised into just "hand weapons" and "two-handed weapons", or a complex set of weapons as an optional rule. The current mix is stupid.

b) I agreed with you on languages, but we have often made rolls for understanding Dark Tongue and others. I think this is part of a weakness of the WFRP system which is the sometimes you don't have to roll and sometimes you do. The d20 system of taking 10 is more coherent. Yes the GM still chooses when you can do it, but it explains what you can do by taking 10. WFRP just has simpler rules and relies more on the GM for making decisions.

c) the lack of orcs is annoying. Orcs, beastmen, and bandits should be the primary encounters.

d) rule of 1 is lame. The whole magic system is a bit lacking. It has incredible detail on the curses but little detail in actual casting. I suspect that there are more curses than actual spells in the base book. It isn't that the magic system is terrible or even bad. It just feels like it could use a couple of more elements to really make it shine.

e) the stat increases are a bit odd (as well as the random stats). For such a stylized game it is odd that I rolled up a dwarf with a lower strength than the elf in our party but a higher agility. And enemies have very limited stat differences. A goblin is almost as strong as an orc or beastman. This is another case where the game is heavy on description and the stats just don't live up to the description.

Some things just don't make sense. E.g. the Pit Fighter must carry a double-handed weapon and learn a talent to use it. However, when I played one, I actually wasn't tempted to use it only once - it brought no advantage over a common one-handed weapon, which I could use at least in conjunction with something else (and be it the free hand to draw a healing potion from my pocket when I needed it). Upon career change, the first thing I did was selling the two-hander. And shall I tell you something? I didn't even miss it once...

With the problems of fundraising v2 brought, some careers are absolutely hard to grow into. It'll take longer to get the money together to buy a pair of (not so impressive) pistols and a destrier which you need as trappings when becoming a pistolier than it'll take you to accumulate the experience to learn the advances the career brings. The end of the story is once you'll be able to get the trappings, you'll rush through that career since you can get a good deal of its advances in a short time. (in fact, all but the secret signs of a scout can be got through your own exercise. The secret sigs are the only ones which someone different would really have to introduce you to.) And this could happen to be your second career in the row... And given the rarity of the pistols, having the money ready to get them is still no guarantee to get them in useful time; a wizard may happen to learn a new set of spells in the meantime.

jadrax wrote:Ten things that I cannot stand about WFRP

Feels better already, doesn't it?

BraganÃ§a Escher wrote:Some things just don't make sense. E.g. the Pit Fighter must carry a double-handed weapon and learn a talent to use it. However, when I played one, I actually wasn't tempted to use it only once - it brought no advantage over a common one-handed weapon, which I could use at least in conjunction with something else (and be it the free hand to draw a healing potion from my pocket when I needed it). Upon career change, the first thing I did was selling the two-hander. And shall I tell you something? I didn't even miss it once...

You see, Escher....
I think you're mistaken here... They do this to give options to players... I, for example, played Pit Fighters for two long games during my time... I've NEVER used the hand weapon/buckler and I've never used that silly flail.

A friend of mine, though, is playing one right now...(A Bretonnian peasant called Jaques) that rellies on the bukler-handweapon-feint combo to win. I would never trade Impact for any other thing.

With the problems of fundraising v2 brought, some careers are absolutely hard to grow into. It'll take longer to get the money together to buy a pair of (not so impressive) pistols and a destrier which you need as trappings when becoming a pistolier than it'll take you to accumulate the experience to learn the advances the career brings.

Not with a GM who's on the ball. I always make sure that these things, as well as a good reason to move into their next career, get worked into the story when the PC in question is prepared to advance. In one instance, the PC needed a pistol and I arranged for him to find one, albiet an old one, in the drawer of the innkeeper's desk he was investigating. Not only that, but the pistol served as a clue as the innkeeper had supposedly committed suicide by pistol, yet here was his pistol, fully loaded.

This concept isn't new, either. It was heartily encouraged in V1. The Enemy Within Campaign, for instance, works in a number of career changing opportunities. For some this smacks of 'deus ex machina' but that's the idea. The heroes are fated (hence Fate Points) for greater things. And besides, I want my players to spend their time adventuring, not meta-gaming ways into some distant career...

Some points for some of the issues you raised:

jadrax wrote:
The Skaven stats in Children of the Horned Rat make no bloody sense.

Why? Can you give examples?

jadrax wrote:
Endless crap Maps, why oh why did the best Cartographer get used to make maps of Norsica and the Border Princes, the most empty areas of the globe instead of the sodding Empire where almost everyone's game is set.

Maybe because they didn't hire (or know about) Andy Law (whom I presume you mean by 'best cartographer'; he certainly is that IMO) until after they did SH? He did do the Sylvania and Kislev Maps, and if BI hadn't gone kablooie they eventually would heve let him to a better Empire Map, I'm sure. Let's hope FFG will employ him as well.

Sythorn wrote:

jadrax wrote:Cathayan Longsword, Weeping Blades and White Wolf hammers - Having them require a separate SWG Talent makes no sense.

... Not to mention I'm sick and tired of the entire western world portraying asians as demi-gods who are perfect in all that they do.

In a fantasy World (especially Warhammer), why risk your life and money to wander around the globe for these weapons when there is Dwarfs probably in the closest city... Even getting these uber-weapons would as hard, at least those-good-old-dwarves are close.

But good point.

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:
Maybe because they didn't hire (or know about) Andy Law (whom I presume you mean by 'best cartographer'; he certainly is that IMO) until after they did SH? He did do the Sylvania and Kislev Maps, and if BI hadn't gone kablooie they eventually would heve let him to a better Empire Map, I'm sure. Let's hope FFG will employ him as well.

Well, you never know what he might do just for the fans now that his work is not restricted

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:Maybe because they didn't hire (or know about) Andy Law (whom I presume you mean by 'best cartographer'; he certainly is that IMO) until after they did SH? He did do the Sylvania and Kislev Maps, and if BI hadn't gone kablooie they eventually would heve let him to a better Empire Map, I'm sure. Let's hope FFG will employ him as well.

They might not have hired him right away, but they certainly knew about the man - as he acted as forum moderator Sigmar/Asuryan.

Of course, hiring random street people

is not what I'd do as a developer, so I'd say it's only natural that time passed from BI first being exposed to Mr Laws unique talents until they hired him. (Though I'm sure this time felt way too long for Andy himself

)

(grrr... smileys reenabled)

jackdays wrote:Well, you never know what he might do just for the fans now that his work is not restricted

You mean, say, working on a full Empire map that will blow us all away, like this one:

Go here for developments: http://hapimeses.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=213

15th Full plates are too awsum. If I would have any part in designing the game, I would have capped the max AP to 4, instead of 6.

CapnZapp wrote:

jackdays wrote:Well, you never know what he might do just for the fans now that his work is not restricted

You mean, say, working on a full Empire map that will blow us all away, like this one:

Yep

Far out!

That's just too

to be real!

Lawks! thats good. There is another one that is a compsite of the fanmaps thats very, very good, has all the little towns and villages from SH on it, but I cant remember where I DL'd it from, and its 79MB...so I cant really email it to anyone.

Luther wrote:
This concept isn't new, either. It was heartily encouraged in V1. The Enemy Within Campaign, for instance, works in a number of career changing opportunities. For some this smacks of 'deus ex machina' but that's the idea. The heroes are fated (hence Fate Points) for greater things. And besides, I want my players to spend their time adventuring, not meta-gaming ways into some distant career...

V1 did implement this very well with TEW.
I never even thought of trappings the way people on this forum consider them, that is, monetary hurdles to move into the career. A kind of hidden gp-xp relationship, in a way...

The career says you need a pistol or a firearm ? In many cases, your career will give it to you ! (Soldier, Coachman...) So getting the pistol isn't a problem. The idea behind trappings, IMO, is to give a good idea on what tools members of this career need to do their job. Ditto.

And remember, PCs are adventurers, not part of an active career. Careers represent an occupation you have in your normal life, between adventures. For verisimilitude, GMs should always prepare some downtime between adventures where PCs go back to being normal citizens and occupy their present career. That makes buying skills and talents believable.

I only allow some advance scheme advances to be bought during adventures. All skills must be bought between adventures.

Moracai wrote:15th Full plates are too awsum. If I would have any part in designing the game, I would have capped the max AP to 4, instead of 6.

5, you mean, right ?

I like scary full plate types... But people, you need to be tactical when fighting these guys !!!
Don't just Swift Attack away !
Outrun them, grapple them, push them in mud, water, whatever.
Don't let the rules impede your imagination.

Gromril Full Plate grants 6 AP

Only if you allow them to get gromril armour. The base rules for it say it's never for sale (just like Ithilmar) so that's up to the GM.

bjorntfh wrote:Only if you allow them to get gromril armour. The base rules for it say it's never for sale (just like Ithilmar) so that's up to the GM.

I don't think Gromril Armour is mentioned at all in the core rules is it?

As fro other books, OWA says its never for sale while KA has some available in a shop.