PC's underpowered in v2?

I am a wfrp v1 veteran but recently bought the v2 rulebook and am planning on running the Thousand Thrones campaign very soon, but I have my thoughts about some of the new v2 features.

- First of all, and the thing that bothers me the most: reading through the rules, it seems that the PC's can't become as powerfull as in the v1 version. I am absolutely no fan of high fantasy, overpowered combat - D&D style, but the attributes seem really low capped: if I'am correct, even the best combat class has an average max WS and BS of 60% (human: 20+2D10+30), even after months of adventuring and multiple careers, which seems a bit low. I don't want a group of supernatural killer PC's, but 60%? Same with S and T bonusses.
Did I overlook something, or do you disagree?

- Secondly, I very much like the new magic system, except for one thing: playing a v1 mage I enjoyed chosing and 'buying' new spells now and then, which is completely gone in v2. You become a mage, get a lore (only 10 spells) and then it's done. Has someone come up with a (balanced) alternative to keep things exciting and let the mage earn new spells (and not only from a short 10-spell list) along the way?

- The Tzeench curse rule for magicians seems pretty harsh, especially for unexperienced magic users; how does this work out in an actual game?

Thanks alot!

The top careers give a +40 to the relevant stat bring the average into the 70s. Add in the talents that are available and it goes up by another 5.

so average WS + top career + warrior born + best craftsmanship weapon is in the low 80s for a human (90s for a dwarf). Not too shabby and much higher then pretty much any monster out there.

lordmalachdrim wrote:so average WS + top career + warrior born + best craftsmanship weapon is in the low 80s for a human (90s for a dwarf). Not too shabby and much higher then pretty much any monster out there.

Correct... then include the more manageable and more readily applied combat modifiers, or the combat actions that provide a bonus (such as Aim or Charge) and you could conceivably have some very high attacks indeed.

I dont know about the power of the PCs. The monsters are still as weak as in V1, so the balance remains. The biggest difference is that its very hard (for humans) to start with a SB or TB of 4, and impossible to start with 5, even with talents. In V1, you had a 1 in 3 chance of starting with a S and T of 4, with skills being able to raise that to 5.

About the magic, I have to agree. The 'poof you learn an entire list' idea is the one of the worst floating around. It was bad in the 80:ies (Role Master), and it has not gotten better since.

Ive redone the system so that you roll D6s instead of D10s. TC only crop up on multiple 1s (and a chance at multiple 6s). In effect TC is less common in this system. This is balanced with introducing a fatigue system, so that Wizards get tired when casting spells near the top of their ability.

PC's become quite powerful but in limited ways.

For instance you have only one parry but it is not modified in general. So an advanced melee with a shield (+10% to parry) will end up with a parry of 80%+. So if they are hit by only one attack they have a great defense. Hit by 3 attacks and they have no defense against the 3rd attack.

They are not weak, but they are certainly vulnerable to hordes of foes.

The Realm of Sorcery provides you with a new talent 'Extra Spell' that allows you to purchase extra spells as well as a lot of extra spells for each 'List.' In effect, it is the same as v1, you spend 100xp and learn another spell.

I'd also recommend rituals. I know they're not the obvious choice since the GM must select one from limited options or create his own and hope it's not game breaking, but rituals are where the real excitement of arcane discoveries lies, in my opinion. Paying experience points to research, study, or create a new ritual, or discovering one in some forgotten place, strikes me as far more interesting and mysterious than learning just another spell, and has the added benefit of shifting the character away from a D&D type wizard to a more believable character with other options at his disposal, giving the character and the magic he wields a little more texture.

Luther wrote:The Realm of Sorcery provides you with a new talent 'Extra Spell' that allows you to purchase extra spells as well as a lot of extra spells for each 'List.' In effect, it is the same as v1, you spend 100xp and learn another spell.

Its the whole 'list' concept that feels a bit outdated.

While the lists concept may be a little outdated it fits with the rigid regulations and enforcement of how colour magic is taught within the setting itself.
Part of the training of a wizard is a formal and formulaic sequence, and going outside that basic formula is seen as a direct influence by Chaos itself.

PearlChoco wrote:- Secondly, I very much like the new magic system, except for one thing: playing a v1 mage I enjoyed chosing and 'buying' new spells now and then, which is completely gone in v2. You become a mage, get a lore (only 10 spells) and then it's done. Has someone come up with a (balanced) alternative to keep things exciting and let the mage earn new spells (and not only from a short 10-spell list) along the way?

Yes.

What I've done is basically ignore everything in the V2 magic rules which relates to the use of Lores as a magic-user classification mechanism, and spell selection mechanism.

Instead, I've substituted a range of Channelling Skills to determine what beleif system a magic user relies upon to drawn magical energy. So, in your case you would need to consider what your character beleives to be the source of his magical power. If he has been schooled in the Teclis Code, then he will only beleive he has the power to draw on a single colour of magic from the wind, but he will have been mentored by a skilled Colour Mage and so will have the basic range of Colour Spells.

On the other hand if he is self taught, or a natural born magic user, he could be drawing on multi-hued magic (which is fine if your an Elf, but the gods help you if you are human). Spells under such circumstances have to be acquired by the old roleplay menthod. Some will have been taught by your characters mentor or master if, he had one, if not he will be searching for hidden spell books and grimiores, or worse still experimenting.

Its at this point during the learning process that I bring back some of the aspects of the Tzeentch Curse as this is the dangerous time, when your character is learning something new or experimenting with things he doesn't really understand. Failed skill/spell acquisition tests run the risk of nasty consequences, the same way they did in V1, but those consequences are now supplemented by the curse tables.

Not sure how balanced this is, that largely becomes a matter for the GM to administer and control. After all he decides on the availability of NPC mentors and research material and can either make the magic user work hard to gain access to them or have them lying around in the gutter.

PearlChoco wrote:I am a wfrp v1 veteran but recently bought the v2 rulebook and am planning on running the Thousand Thrones campaign very soon, but I have my thoughts about some of the new v2 features.

- First of all, and the thing that bothers me the most: reading through the rules, it seems that the PC's can't become as powerfull as in the v1 version. I am absolutely no fan of high fantasy, overpowered combat - D&D style, but the attributes seem really low capped: if I'am correct, even the best combat class has an average max WS and BS of 60% (human: 20+2D10+30), even after months of adventuring and multiple careers, which seems a bit low. I don't want a group of supernatural killer PC's, but 60%? Same with S and T bonusses.
Did I overlook something, or do you disagree?

- Secondly, I very much like the new magic system, except for one thing: playing a v1 mage I enjoyed chosing and 'buying' new spells now and then, which is completely gone in v2. You become a mage, get a lore (only 10 spells) and then it's done. Has someone come up with a (balanced) alternative to keep things exciting and let the mage earn new spells (and not only from a short 10-spell list) along the way?

- The Tzeench curse rule for magicians seems pretty harsh, especially for unexperienced magic users; how does this work out in an actual game?

Thanks alot!

Hi PearlChoco,

1. You didn't overlook something. v2 characters can't get as many Attacks and as high characteristics scores as v1 characters. Now, the important questions are: is this good or bad? Is it a problem for you and if so, why? Let's not discuss solutions until we know the problem.

2. I too enjoy the excitement as a wizard that I might find a magical tome inside the library or cellar or wherever my adventures are taking me, that might provide me with new spells (or insanities!).

And as has been said, sadly WFRPv2 doesn't support this, not for the central spellcasters - the wizards and priests of the empire. My advice is getting hold of Realm of the Ice Queen. It contains what you need to create houserules that have the look and feel of "officialness". Granted, it concerns itself with Kislevite witches only, but it does provide a solid foundation to reuse for imperial characters too.

3. Some groups find TC to be very harsh, others not at all. This is because for all its strengths, the restraint this mechanism offers is heavily reliant on how grimly the GM treats discovered wizards in his or her personal game. My only advice here is: before you start to tinker, you should 1) play a few games to lessen the risk of having your perceptions be clouded by a streak of bad (or good) luck 2) think about how you run your campaigns: if being discovered outside the college walls is a one-trip to the pyre, then TC is probably very harsh; but if fireballing mutants is something even peasants can understand is a necessary evil, then it might even be too weak.

There isn't one good "solution" to TC, because it's a different problem for different groups, and probably not a big problem at all for many!

Lord of the Pit wrote: This is balanced with introducing a fatigue system, so that Wizards get tired when casting spells near the top of their ability.

Would you share that fatigue system of yours with us?

PC also have the Fate and Fortune option, I am be wrong but I think there are some changes from v1 that seem to help the characters.

As far as I remember the 1st edition you could hava no more than 2 or 3 armour points. Now you can reach up to 6 points - that's a significant improvement.

You're supposed to be weak.

Ragnarok wrote:As far as I remember the 1st edition you could hava no more than 2 or 3 armour points. Now you can reach up to 6 points - that's a significant improvement.

Not really. V1 used six-sided dice and everything was based on a scale 1-6 (roughly).
V2 use ten-sided dice and everything is scaled accordingly. A value of three in the old system becomes nearly five in the new.

So, yes, the importance of armour is perhaps a teensy bit increased. But it isn't that big a change.

(Btw, the normal v2 limit is 5 AP. Then only remotely accessible exception is dwarven gomril plate.)

CapnZapp wrote:...but if fireballing mutants is something even peasants can understand is a necessary evil, then it might even be too weak.

If some of the minor manifestations were along the lines of, "somewhere in the vicinity, a kitten/puppy/bunny dies", now that would make players think twice about slinging fireballs with reckless abandon.

Heh.

Herr Arnulfe wrote:
If some of the minor manifestations were along the lines of, "somewhere in the vicinity, a kitten/puppy/bunny dies", now that would make players think twice about slinging fireballs with reckless abandon.

New Rules:

Every time you roll doubles on an WS roll, Khorne kills a puppy.

Every time you roll doubles on a T roll, Nurgle infects a puppy with Neiglish Rot

Every time you roll doubles on a Fel roll, Slaanesh does ...things... with a puppy

Can you tell I don't like dogs?

Luther wrote:The Realm of Sorcery provides you with a new talent 'Extra Spell' that allows you to purchase extra spells as well as a lot of extra spells for each 'List.' In effect, it is the same as v1, you spend 100xp and learn another spell.

So now you have the staggering amount of 20 lore spells to choose from...

I simply use a mix from v1 magic, where you have to find/learn/buy all spells one by one (beginning app. wizards start with 2 petty magic spells). (Petty = 50xp, standard = 100xp)
This combined with TC... when they use the same spell twice in the same day/week/month (depending on Casting Number) I roll in secret an extra chaos dice (keeps adding up untill they take a break from using the spell...), this is to reflect that using the same magic tires you, and draws attention from the Changer. (also a failed attempt, still counts towards this...)
Also forces the players to not just rely on one spell in combat, and to limit their use of healing.

The Journeyman Wizard in the group is very catious when using magic, and usually draws sword in most fights, only rarely using magic to overcome obstacles.
You might see this as boring for him, but he really loves how he rarely uses magic, makes it so much more thrilling for him when he actually casts.

Another factor, is the glow in his eyes, when I say the magic words "you also find a tome..."

Maybe it is because I run a small group but I like the Ritual system, these can outside your lores and with the GM's help, be very useful. Yes, they are outside of the "action" structure but I see them as role-playing elements.

Spivo wrote:when they use the same spell twice in the same day/week/month (depending on Casting Number) I roll in secret an extra chaos dice (keeps adding up untill they take a break from using the spell...), this is to reflect that using the same magic tires you, and draws attention from the Changer. (also a failed attempt, still counts towards this...)
Also forces the players to not just rely on one spell in combat, and to limit their use of healing.

The Journeyman Wizard in the group is very catious when using magic, and usually draws sword in most fights, only rarely using magic to overcome obstacles.
You might see this as boring for him, but he really loves how he rarely uses magic, makes it so much more thrilling for him when he actually casts.

Another factor, is the glow in his eyes, when I say the magic words "you also find a tome..."

Some excellent thoughts there. I wholeheartedly agree the core rules extinguish that glow in the spellcaster player's eye, and quite needlessly too. (The WFRPv2 system has many great things going for it, but none of them depend on the fact everyone learns all, or nearly all, their spells before play start start)

Adding a Chaos Die to each healing attempt during a day is an excellent idea (now I'm taking your idea and moving with it, for instance solving the immediate issue of alternating between spell A and B to evade your penalty) though perhaps a tad too crippling (it will quickly become effectively unavailable if its casting triggers a truckload of chaos dice). But I like the underlying idea in that you don't cripple the few crucial healing attempts a PC spellcaster might need to do during a day, while still providing a strong incentive to not waste healing frivolously (thus explaining why NPC healers won't help a suffering populace).

What would be needed is a smaller increment of penalty than "one whole Chaos Die".

Perhaps the easiest idea would be to keep "whole" Chaos Dice, and instead give characters a number of free castings before they start to accumulate them Chaos Dice.

The mechanism that comes naturally to mind is your (effective) Magic number. With Magic 1, you can cast the spell once with no added Chaos Dice. With Magic 5, you can cast the spell five times before any Chaos Dice due to repetitive casting are rolled.

I'm most inclined to use this system on healing spells only myself. (I wonder if something like this wasn't suggested back when we last had the discussion on how to rein in magical healing though...?)

I actually think WFRP has the bet of both world, all spellcasters get a good starting selection and then get to hunt down rare rituals and lesser magic spells from tomes.

The problem with 1st edition is that spells were hardly ever worth pursuing as most where not actually worth the xp cost and the ones that were often required components that where unobtainable.