4E Midnight?

i dont rly see a challenge for 4E fitting midnight b/c their is not much of a challenge for it... u can never run out of abilities, thats so stupid, but with 3.5 u can which totally makes it a better fit... in midnight the people are supposed to stuggle, and with 4E i dont see much of tat happening with that.... but oh well if they can make it fit im all for it but im 93% sure they are not going to make a 4E for midnight for along time, so its best to stick to conversions.

I would say this is the biggest benefit of switching to 4E... 4E is the easiest system to DM and generate encounters and adventures as homebrew, since maybe Classic or OD&D. 3.5 Midnight was one of those game settings that may have been more heavily collected than played, since there weren't many published adventures for it. Invariably there was a chorus of requests for more published adventures on places like AtS. Anyone who has worked with 3.5 statting their own monsters knows what a nightmare game prep and homebrew was with those rules, balancing encounters and working the math of CRs and ELs. (Shivers, remembering the horrors...)

In the 4E world, it's a snap. So a setting like Midnight, big on fluff, moderate on crunch, where it's expected for the DM to homebrew most of their campaign settings, 4E is a good fit for it just from ease of homebrewing.

Complaints about healing surges or endless abilities and whatnot are coming from people who haven't played 4E; it's very bloody. It would actually be trivial to tweak it to make it grittier, to add injuries and longer lasting damage effects (I've even seen some of the designers toss some ideas out there off the cuff).

I do agree that the 4E GSL looks like it's going to foreclose this avenue for FFG unless they cross the game line over. I was literally 'just passing by', doing my usual check-in on the FFG world to see if there had been any news on Midnight and 4E. Alas, not yet I see.

crash beedo wrote:I would say this is the biggest benefit of switching to 4E... 4E is the easiest system to DM and generate encounters and adventures as homebrew, since maybe Classic or OD&D. 3.5 Midnight was one of those game settings that may have been more heavily collected than played, since there weren't many published adventures for it. Invariably there was a chorus of requests for more published adventures on places like AtS. Anyone who has worked with 3.5 statting their own monsters knows what a nightmare game prep and homebrew was with those rules, balancing encounters and working the math of CRs and ELs. (Shivers, remembering the horrors...)

In the 4E world, it's a snap. So a setting like Midnight, big on fluff, moderate on crunch, where it's expected for the DM to homebrew most of their campaign settings, 4E is a good fit for it just from ease of homebrewing.

Complaints about healing surges or endless abilities and whatnot are coming from people who haven't played 4E; it's very bloody. It would actually be trivial to tweak it to make it grittier, to add injuries and longer lasting damage effects (I've even seen some of the designers toss some ideas out there off the cuff).

I hate to burst your bubble, but the XP system of 4.0 is just as poor as 3.5. Building challenging encounters is just as tricky. At the starting levels, everything is good. At higher levels...the system is bad. Monsters have a pretty large HP increase and a slight damage decrease so as to make fights boring. I remember 3.5 fighting Ogres and it was challenging. I ran a pair of Ogres against the party the other day and...it was an exercise in boring. The Ogres just served as meat shields and with very few attacks, it was very easy for the party to mitigate the damage.

I've run several combats now and never have I felt that I've given the party a true challenge, as in a fight in which they've ever felt like they could lose. By about 1/4 into the battle, I know that the party will defeat the enemy without any serious problems. By about 1/2 of the way into the battle, the party knows this as well.

If by bloody combat you mean nearly impossible to drop a single character without running very hard challenges (as per their system), then I agree with you. But seriously, don't kid yourself:
XP system is just a flawed
Monsters often have one attack so having small groups of baddies allows the party to run rampant on them
Monsters have too many HP
Minions are great at beginning levels and scale horribly
Monster damage is underpar
Healing is way too casual know. It's on par with a video game and that removes pretty much any tension from a fight.
Character Powers can completely overwhelm the monsters. At one point my Dragon was Stunned, Immobiized, Dazed, Blinded and shoved around like a rag dog in combat. This was not cool. I also had a ghoul who couldn't even get into combat because they shoved it away constantly.

Sorry but I've tried 4th edition and it's failed to deliver.

This was a problem in 3E as well. A PC party versus 1-3 creatures usually resulted in the creatures dying in the first or second round of combat. One thing I've learned from 3.5, and I'm sure it holds true in 4E, is that you want quantity. A lot of creatures means that they last more rounds than just one or two or three monsters, and they have more opportunity to dish out damage than when you have a few monsters.

Two ogres versus a PC party in 3.5 is 'okay'. Ten kobolds and one ogre against a PC party can actually last longer.

crash beedo wrote:I would say this is the biggest benefit of switching to 4E... 4E is the easiest system to DM and generate encounters and adventures as homebrew, since maybe Classic or OD&D. 3.5 Midnight was one of those game settings that may have been more heavily collected than played, since there weren't many published adventures for it. Invariably there was a chorus of requests for more published adventures on places like AtS. Anyone who has worked with 3.5 statting their own monsters knows what a nightmare game prep and homebrew was with those rules, balancing encounters and working the math of CRs and ELs. (Shivers, remembering the horrors...)

In the 4E world, it's a snap. So a setting like Midnight, big on fluff, moderate on crunch, where it's expected for the DM to homebrew most of their campaign settings, 4E is a good fit for it just from ease of homebrewing.

Complaints about healing surges or endless abilities and whatnot are coming from people who haven't played 4E; it's very bloody. It would actually be trivial to tweak it to make it grittier, to add injuries and longer lasting damage effects (I've even seen some of the designers toss some ideas out there off the cuff).

I do agree that the 4E GSL looks like it's going to foreclose this avenue for FFG unless they cross the game line over. I was literally 'just passing by', doing my usual check-in on the FFG world to see if there had been any news on Midnight and 4E. Alas, not yet I see.

Registered just to reply to this... I normally only post on the AtS forums, but hey...

Ok, first, 4E is far from the easiest thing to setup and play, and it's far from a good fit.

My vote for best system for ease of use, setup, play, speed, and versatility is the SIEGE system used by Castles and Crusades. If you've never played it, don't even bother commenting, just read this:

http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/cnc/why_play_cnc.html

If Midnight is to ever move to a new system, I think a Ground Up Players Handbook for Midnight written with the SIEGE system will Midnight justice and I know it would garner a lot of players who already use the SIEGE system. Cheers.

I do not want to see a shift to 4E as I have no intention of playing that system. The GSL as reported will not allow dual system material and would therefore kill 3.5 support. Yeah I am being selfish but I am sure that I and my roleplay group are not the only ones sticking with 3.5. Also I presume this would mean any current 3.5 material could not be sold if they signed the 4.0 GSL and started producing 4.0 material.

I have been trying to find a Castles & Crusades conversion of Midnight for ages.

I looked at Castles and Crusades. Ummm...It is not really a good solution at all. Sticking with 3.5 is far better.

Castles and Crusades isn't much more than a cleaner system of 2nd edition D&D. It has as limited character development as D&D 4th edition. 3.5 fought hard to make classes such as the Fighter at least viable and interesting. C&C returns the fighter back into the most boring class ever. The system really just returns to the age old problem of "I attack." Next round: "I attack again."

At least Pathfinder tries to include combat maneuvers (although I don't care for the execution) and a lot more feats which require choices to be made during combat.

Hey guys, I too specially registered just to answer this thread (I usually only post on ATS).

From what you've discussed, I can see the following:
- D&D 3.5 is not satisfying as a rules set for Midnight
- D&D 4E is even worse
- Castles & Crusades is not a good fit either.

Common sense dictates that FFG creates its own rules system for Midnight. That way, you have rules that implement the feeling conveyed by the setting (that's usually where generic systems fail to deliver). On the plus side, FFG is then no longer tied by silly GSL licences

I really hope FFG will revive the setting in a new edition, with a rules system that does the setting justice.

Just for the pleasure of giving my own opinion

Nice 'plug' (or request).

I think it's own system would be a better idea. But it's a lot of work and for, likely, very little gain in their part. FFG seems to be focusing on the games that will get them money, which are board games and miniature games.

3.5 is serviceable. It's been used, it's familiar, it works. It's just not flashy. Using the Pathfinder system is a step in the right direction. Or using various 'mods' (such as some of the ideas from Game of Thrones).

Midnight is a world that cries out for gritty combat, which is one thing that D&D doesn't do very well. Some people feel that Warhammer RPG is a better model for gritty combat, but truly, it's just a clone of D&D 3.5 but with paired down HP's and a better armour system (but also a far more abusive armour system).

Yeah, maybe it's own system is the way to go. But it's a lot of work.

Say FFG, if you want, I'll offer to build you a new system for your Midnight world. =D

(Hey, a guy can dream, right?)

Sarim Rune wrote:Nice 'plug' (or request).

I think it's own system would be a better idea. But it's a lot of work and for, likely, very little gain in their part. FFG seems to be focusing on the games that will get them money, which are board games and miniature games.

3.5 is serviceable. It's been used, it's familiar, it works. It's just not flashy. Using the Pathfinder system is a step in the right direction. Or using various 'mods' (such as some of the ideas from Game of Thrones).

Midnight is a world that cries out for gritty combat, which is one thing that D&D doesn't do very well. Some people feel that Warhammer RPG is a better model for gritty combat, but truly, it's just a clone of D&D 3.5 but with paired down HP's and a better armour system (but also a far more abusive armour system).

Yeah, maybe it's own system is the way to go. But it's a lot of work.

Say FFG, if you want, I'll offer to build you a new system for your Midnight world. =D

(Hey, a guy can dream, right?)

Yes, sure 3.5 works... as long as you don't use combat rules

I understand that its own system would not necessarily sell that well. So, why don't they go the "Pathfinder road"?

Just take the 3.5 rules, tweak them (create an alternate combat system that makes it more gritty, emulate rules for illiteracy, lack of knowledge, etc: all that makes Midnight unique), and publish a "Midnight RPG", based on the 3.5 rules. That's what Paizo is doing with Pathfinder, and all bets are that it will work very well, as it is likely to draw people who did not want to move to 4E (but desire a cleaned version of 3.5), AND those who were disappointed by 4E (and I hear there's quite a large crowd of them).

On the plus side, you have almost complete compatibility with what was published so far, so you won(t lose the "old timers",everyone will be familiar with the system, everyone will be happy because all the "bad" points of 3.5 will be removed and replaced by Midnight-specific rules, and FFG makes money with minimal investment...

This seems the optimal move IMO... unless someone has a better idea?

Once again, the problem with D&D rules (whether Pathfinder or not) comes up at high level when the character becomes some kind of unstoppable übermensch. Unstoppable by anything not high-level and magically supercharged, that is... which is exactly what you don't want to have in a Midnight game, according to me...

That's where Epic 6 comes out as a really appropriate alternative...
As someone proposed, another good choice for the Midnight setting is the approach taken by the designers of A Game of Thrones RPG (Guardians of Order) with its lethal combat system which encourages players to think twice before letting steel sing...rising up in level in AGOT doesn't make you a superhero by any means...

I like what i hear.

There are certain things to take into consideration when re-doing part of a game. Small changes can lead to incompatibility.

You would have to:
- Modify certain areas. Such as standard actions, full-attack actions, 5 foot step, etc. To change any of that may unravel other areas
- You would have to recognize what makes D&D combat a little dull/slow. Fighters get many attacks at higher levels (lots of dice rolling). Confirming Critcals (more dice). Lacking description. Little room to add flavor (I want to smash a chair over an orcs head...I don't want to look up rules that say I attack at a -4, does it only do non-lethal damage and what is the damage level of a chair? 1d4? Why would I ever do that then? Fine, I'll draw my sword and gut him...)
- You would have to add something more dynamic than HP's. Gritty tends to mean that some combat will leave the characters scarred and broken. It would be very important (and difficult) to balance the progress of the characters while leaving them scarred. Ultimately, winning the fight and moving the story forward and being heroes is the ultimate goal. The trick would be to make them pay for every victory.

Other thoughts?

(Why wait for FFG to 'never' get to this. We could make our own fan-fic game, much like Pathfinder did)

Dweller on the Threshold wrote:Once again, the problem with D&D rules (whether Pathfinder or not) comes up at high level when the character becomes some kind of unstoppable übermensch. Unstoppable by anything not high-level and magically supercharged, that is... which is exactly what you don't want to have in a Midnight game, according to me...

That's where Epic 6 comes out as a really appropriate alternative...
As someone proposed, another good choice for the Midnight setting is the approach taken by the designers of A Game of Thrones RPG (Guardians of Order) with its lethal combat system which encourages players to think twice before letting steel sing...rising up in level in AGOT doesn't make you a superhero by any means...

I agree. It's the ever increasing HP. Game of Thrones 'fixes' this by lowering HP's in general.

I'm not sold on Epic 6, but I do like the concept. But in Epic 6, you stop gaining everything but Feats after level 6, correct? I think people really like to play D&D because of the constant new powers that their characters can get. Stopping a Monk at level 6 denies some mighty cool (if powerful abilities).

I think it's the combat system (damage stays static while HP's skyrocket) is the key problem. Not the levels in general.

Umm...except some of the spells. Yeah, some of those spells are stupid powerful.

An alternative to Hit Points can also be found in Green Ronin's True 20 where you get to roll a Toughness Save (akin to the other Saving Throws) which is nothing more than a Constitution roll (totally independent of any level considerations) modified by armor and by the source of damage... depending on the margin by which you fail, you get a stunning blow, a light wound, a severe wound or you can even be mortally wounded and start dying... Very gritty and interesting way of handling damage ...

Dweller on the Threshold wrote:An alternative to Hit Points can also be found in Green Ronin's True 20 where you get to roll a Toughness Save (akin to the other Saving Throws) which is nothing more than a Constitution roll (totally independent of any level considerations) modified by armor and by the source of damage... depending on the margin by which you fail, you get a stunning blow, a light wound, a severe wound or you can even be mortally wounded and start dying... Very gritty and interesting way of handling damage ...

I've seen this in Mutants and Masterminds. I really didn't think it worked as well as it sounds. I like the concept a lot. Nothing is guaranteed. But the d20 is wild and inconsistent. You roll like crap and you're done and out in the 1st round of combat. How enjoyable was that? I've also seen powerful enemies (in M&M) go down in the 1st round. You know what players do, when you try to build up an enemy like that? They laugh.

Even with re-rolls it's a little wild.

I think it would be a better system is the 'taken out' effect was removed for a 2nd saving throw. More like a Grievous wound is caused: Roll to see if you can suck it up and fight on. But then now you have a system that threatens to allow a character to keep going on and on forever if he rolls well enough.

I'm sure if it was played around with for long enough it might be made to work. I think it's a neat mechanic. But it's a little 'mathy' and a little random.

Back in the old time, Tome of Sorrows (volume 1) had alernate combat rules for a "grim & gritty" flavour.

You can also get your inspiration from the Conan OGL rules: beyond a certain level, PCs stop gaining hit dice (they only gain 1 hp per new level, IIRC), and there are massive damage thresholds. It also introduces combat maneuvers, which are not feats, but you gain access to them as your level increases.

Actually I think this is a very interesting move: in one book, you have all the rules you need, and an overview of the setting for the players. In another book, which could be DM-only, you'd have all that is "fluff" (no stats needed), and the DM's secrets (creatures, adversaries, etc).

Btw, I think high-level play in Midnight is highly unlikely

What *I* would like to see (as a player):
- I describe an action. No, the DM does not tell me "you can't do that, it's not covered in the rules". Exit wargaming D&D... I can do as many actions I want (no more questions like "is this a standard action or a fast action or whatever), but mechanically, the more ambitious I am, the more chances I have to fail (for each supplementary action, I get a -5 to ALL my rolls (-5 to all rolls for 2 actions, -10 for 3 actions, etc)
- DM allows me to *try*, even though it is almost impossible. I like the idea that I can at least *try* something (even though it will probably fail: see above). No more math or complicated rules: if I try something that is not "standard", then I accept that it's a DM's judgement call.
- good ideas should be rewarded with "tactical bonuses"
- combat system is deadly: yes, you can deal lots of damage, but so can do your opponents. So choose your battles carefully. There you insert the "no more HPs beyond x level" and the massive damage threshold rule. Also there should be a rule like "you give damage equal to your weapon + your character level": a seasoned veteran knows how to strike where it hurts

- Emphasis should be put when things are prepared (ambush and surprise attacks, decoys, terrain reconnaissance, etc, should all give bonuses once the fight begins). On the contrary, any "rushed" actions (like stupidly getting into a fight without minimal observation) should give minuses. Once again, this is a "choose your battle" mantra.
- when reduced to 0 hp, PCs are not unconscious, but suffer -x malus to their actions. And now each time they are wounded, they roll on a severe wound table (torn limb, etc). That way, (remember that your HP is limited), if you keep fighting when hurt, you take a severe risk of permanent wounds (missing limb, etc) or even death.
- with a "normal" wound recovery system, they will be forced to flee and hide, just to get a chance to heal normally. Exit "second breath" and other nonsense that allow you, once a fight is over, to start a new one immediately: this is not a MMO, combat is a "last resort" in Midnight. Remember that access to healing magic is very rare...

Other ideas or comments?