Lasgun Extravaganza!

Let me throw in a new idea.
A ways back, I read a proposal for a hand-held laser weapon for the American OICW program. Even at the blueprint stage the thing had teething issues; polonium rod, refrigerator sized cooling pack required to not incinerate the soldier etc.
Anyhow, the boffins building the sodder cited asa huge advantage of a laser this: the burnt laser-wound is surrounded by dead, or necrotised flesh killed by the heat of the beam.
In other wounds, guaranteed gangrene. Yummy, and the sort of thing the departmento munitorum would rhapsodise over; the deployment of las-weapons overstrains the enemy's triage systems, and does a better job of offing Orks.

To chip into the marksmanship angle, bullets from rea-life style projectile guns don't fire in a straight line. They fire in a parabolic arc affected by atmosphere; learning the ins and outs of this arcing is the essence of marksmanship. A laser, OTOH, actually fires in a completely straight line; any chump could use the damned thing.

Toxoplasma wrote:
Anyhow, the boffins building the sodder cited asa huge advantage of a laser this: the burnt laser-wound is surrounded by dead, or necrotised flesh killed by the heat of the beam.
In other wounds, guaranteed gangrene. Yummy, and the sort of thing the departmento munitorum would rhapsodise over; the deployment of las-weapons overstrains the enemy's triage systems, and does a better job of offing Orks.

I believe this is covered in optional rules towards the end of IH, where the rules indicated that wounds from 'E' weapons may accrue penalties to medicae tests.

Toxoplasma wrote:To chip into the marksmanship angle, bullets from rea-life style projectile guns don't fire in a straight line. They fire in a parabolic arc affected by atmosphere; learning the ins and outs of this arcing is the essence of marksmanship. A laser, OTOH, actually fires in a completely straight line; any chump could use the damned thing.

So... whould this result in all las weapons being accurate, longer range (which they already have) or something else?

Their is another "ammo logistic" reason for picking a lasgun. The pesky kid-sister of "their is no change to buy ammo right here/right now".

Even if you have regular visits to stores where ammo is sold... it is not sure that you get ammo fitting to YOUR gun. Let´s take a look on todays weapon market.

Actually, I don't believe that. Any world connected to the Imperium will have at least a few types of 'standard' ammo, for exactly this reason - there are guard troops in existance that rely on SP weapons and SP sidearms are relatively common. So when you've got control over a world anyway, why not send a department of the AM down there to tell them they can keep their local ammo, but they have to produce at least a number of X according to the sacred patterns?

Graspar wrote:

Toxoplasma wrote:To chip into the marksmanship angle, bullets from rea-life style projectile guns don't fire in a straight line. They fire in a parabolic arc affected by atmosphere; learning the ins and outs of this arcing is the essence of marksmanship. A laser, OTOH, actually fires in a completely straight line; any chump could use the damned thing.

So... whould this result in all las weapons being accurate, longer range (which they already have) or something else?

Incorrect, the range is still hampered because the energy in the beam can dissipate over long distances, making it harmless by the time it impacts the target.

Arguably while it might not make a difference over short or even medium ranges extreme rainfall might effect the lasers effectiveness over longer ranges, twisting the shot off target slightly, like glass or water can do to a bullet.

I do like las weapons, they may not be the most effective, but when ammos low and other guns are jamming these suckers will keep on going. Loads of ammo and just keep shooting. Always keeps a warm las pistol or lasgun ready.

Most people seem to think that, to make it match established fluff, the lasgun should be given the possibility to be fired fully automatically. Also that a charge selector should be built in, acting as an overcharge pack that can be turned on and off.

The autogun is supposed to be superior to the lasgun when it comes to dealing as much damage in as short a timespan as possible, whereas the lasgun is supposed to compensate with reliability, versatility and practicality.

In the RAW, the higher damage of the autogun was represented by giving it a fully automatic mode which the lasgun did not have. An alternative way to realize the same goal would be to let both guns have both firing modes, but make the lasgun deal one point of damage less.

Problem comes when you throw in the overcharge pack into the equation. In overcharge mode, the lasgun would deal the same damage and run through its clip equally fast as an autogun, and have reliable as a freebie. You could rule that it stops being reliable when firing overcharged shots, but then it becomes identical to an autogun when fired overcharged, with the additional option of firing on normal charge for reliability and ammo saving. Again, the lasgun would be strictly better than an autogun.

How about:

The lasgun works as it does at present, except that it gets to fire at full auto for 10 shots. When fired at full auto, the lasgun counts as unreliable rather than reliable, and cannot be fired in overcharge mode.

Hence, the autogun would be a better weapon for fully automatic fire due to the smaller chance of jamming, whereas the lasgun would have a lower chance of jamming at semi-automatic or single-shot fire.

If you think this would unbalance the lasgun relative to the autogun, one could also rule that a lasgun firing semi-auto overcharged would not count as reliable (but not as unreliable either). Since it makes sense that overheating would be what limits the rate of fire of a las weapon (as was said earlier, there is no physical reason for why you'd have to fire pulses rather than a coherent beam), it would reasonably follow that reliability would drop progressively as rate of fire is increased.

Of course, with sufficient tech-use skills, I suppose a lasgun could be rigged to fire full auto overcharged. For that, though, I'd not only make it count as unreliable, but give it the overheat rule too. Yeah, that's right, such rigging would make it as dangerous to its user as a plasma gun.

What do you think?

Cifer wrote:Actually, I don't believe that. Any world connected to the Imperium will have at least a few types of 'standard' ammo, for exactly this reason - there are guard troops in existance that rely on SP weapons and SP sidearms are relatively common. So when you've got control over a world anyway, why not send a department of the AM down there to tell them they can keep their local ammo, but they have to produce at least a number of X according to the sacred patterns?

Regardless, the Lasgun is still logistically superior... several million lasgun charge packs possess far more utility than several million full magazines of autogun rounds (assuming both are of equivalent size), simply because the charge packs are far more reusable.

IMO, the simple way to simultaneously upgrade the lasgun's rate of fire while keeping the Autogun as the better weapon for autofire purposes would be to give the lasgun a RoF of S/3/5 or S/3/6... less than the Autogun, but more reliable and less frequent reloading... simple.

Actually, a RoF of S/3/6 is superior to S/3/10.

Game mechanics wise, greater rate of fire is not what increases the chance of hitting. Firing mode is what increases the chance of hitting. Rate of fire is a liability that has to be endured to get that +10/+20 modifier to hit.

Granted, the number of shots fired determines the maximum number of hits you can score. However, the chance of actually scoring more than six hits even with a fully automatic burst is minuscule regardless of circumstances, and would result in a hideous overkill against almost all targets anyway.

Letting a lasgun have a lower rate of fire would work if the bonus to hit when firing a fully automatic burst would actually depend on the number of shots fired. Which is something that I have myself thought of introducing. It simply makes no sense that an autopistol firing six shots in a burst should have the same chance to hit as a minigun that can throw out a hundred rounds per second.

So, for modifiers to hit based on rate of fire, how about:

4-9 shots: +15%
10-19 shots: +20%
20-29 shots: +25%
30+ shots: +30%

Semi-automatic bursts would get a flat +10% regardless of whether 2 or 3 shots are fired, since there is an actual chance of scoring more "hits" than you have shots with a RoF of 2.

This could even make heavy stubbers worth bringing along. Machine guns have been a staple of infantry combat since they were invented, but a DH heavy stubber is essentially nothing but an autogun with a bit more range and penetration.

Now that I've thought of it (I tend to post in very stream-of-consciousness style), thanks for the idea, N0-1. Simply giving the lasgun S/3/6 solves it neatly, and the additional houserule needed to make it work is one that begs for introduction anyway. w00t!

Fluff-wise Las weapons are supposed to be superior damage-wise as well, because the standard Mark III is supposed to have power-sliders (because the Ghosts is considered canon here) on it that make the beam more powerful with more charge. Its also supposed to be capable of full-auto fire, but it isn't in DH. The IG doesn't just use Lasguns because they have more reliability etc., but they use them because they're also supposed to be more powerful and versatile weapons. Really the overcharge pack should be standard to all lasweapons as an option, because fluff-wise that's the way it works.

Re: the atmospheric haze thing:
Atmospheric haze; be it dust, rain, smoke, whatever, dissipates the las-beam, causing it to peter out at a shorter distance.
Effectively, haze'd choke your range down, (and possibly your damage) when it wouldn't do so as much to an autogun.

Game wise? I kind of want las-weapons to be equal to, maybe a little better than, SP weapons.
It's a laser and stuff! Pew! Pew!

How about this one?

Charge Slider
Cost: 25
Availability: Average
Effect: adds "min" and "max" settings to any las weapon

Minimum
Damage: -1 E, -1 pen
Range: -20m
Energy: x0.5
Special: basic or heavy las weapons may use autofire

By opting to decrease the energy output, a gun's lasbolts impose fewer stress on both barrel and mechanics, effectively allowing las weapons of carbine size or larger to become able to use autofire mode for increased efficiency in close combat. Autofire cadence is defined by the weapons burst mode increased by 100% (for example, a lasgun with S/3/- becomes S/3/6).
In addition, a lo-energy las round will drain only half energy from the weapon's chargepack, rounded up for uneven burst/autofire (for example, a burst of 3 shots will only drain energy for 2).

Maximum
Damage: +1 E, +1 pen
Range: +20m
Energy: x2
Special: not reliable if not used with single shot

As more energy is focused into the shot it becomes more consistent and stable, giving it a slight increase in damage and range. However, an overcharged lasbolt will drain twice as much energy out of the charge pack (for example, a burst of 3 shots will drain energy for 6).
If a las weapon used in hi-energy setting is not used in single shot mode, it looses any Reliable trait bonuses as the barrel becomes subjected to more stress.

CathedralSquares wrote:Fluff-wise Las weapons are supposed to be superior damage-wise as well, because the standard Mark III is supposed to have power-sliders (because the Ghosts is considered canon here) on it that make the beam more powerful with more charge.

And? We don't know how much power they use on any given mode, or how powerful each setting actually is. The STC/standard Autogun (according to Imperial Armour 5) apparently fires an 8.5mm caseless round and is fitted with a dense metal block at the front of the foregrip as a crude measure to limit the weapon 'climbing' due to recoil. They're heavy, brutal weapons, and judging by the calibre of the ammunition, more powerful than contemporary assault rifles.

The Lasgun is a comparable weapon - in 40k terms, they have identical stats, varying slightly over the years (40k 2nd edition and Necromunda gave lasguns a -1 save modifier that Autoguns didn't have, and the Lasgun was more likely to pass ammo rolls than the autogun in Necromunda, while Inquisitor gives the autogun a higher rate of fire and a slightly higher damage score, as opposed to the lasgun's larger magazine). They're not meant to be significantly different in performance. Their function is so close that the large-scale logistical issues (reliability, ease of resupply, simplicity of use) tip the scale within the context of the Imperial Guard... from the perspective of a massive army, those reasons are entirely valid. The Guard use Lasguns because that's what the Departmento Munitorum give them.

Good Post.

And to draw a real world analogy, compare acolytes to special forces.

In Vietnam, early on, the bulk of the US army was using the M14 7.62mm, but the special forces were using all sorts, with them being amongst the first to switch to 5.56 with the Stoner weapons systems and even gyroget pistols, even now the british special forces carry a huge range of weapons not seen in line regiments.

So while the Imperial Guard use lasguns, acolytes can justify using anything they want - so long as they dont mind lugging all that 8.5mm ammo about - that, even in caseless form, will take up a LOT of space and limit how much the acolyte can physically carry and a 30 round magazine will be a foot high and as wide and long as the required propellant - probably a lot given the size of round - it is equivalent to .34 calibur, either its a large, slow moving round like those from AKs or its a full size battle rifle round.

At the highest setting a lasgun is supposed to blow off the arm of a space marine. I don't think that the IA: 4 autogun quite compares to that.

I think a Lasgun has no kick (compared to an autogun) and hence very easy to control, and no flight time fo a bullet so accurate.

Perhaps a +10 bonus to BS (this would be in addition to 'Accurate'). Perhaps simply 'Las weapon +10'.

Another would be the vaporising effect. This would cause a struck area to vaporise into plasma, and produce a shock wave. Where bullet penetrate and slow down, or pass through (and hence no knock-back) a small plasma explosion would knock back.

A Lasgun could have a 'knock-back' and 'shock' effect on non-ceramite armoured areas. Making them effect against lightly armoured troops. This could kick in if the damage is over T. I would suggest 'prone' and perhaps 'surprised' would cover this.

I would also suggest that they are less effect against ceramite (and other ceramic) armours which are good insulators.

It makes lasgun a good choice for going up against light armour, but not so great against heavy armours. it should be noted that the IG run around with ceramite flak jackets, and so Lasgun are less effective against them.

Philip

Philip S wrote:Another would be the vaporising effect. This would cause a struck area to vaporise into plasma, and produce a shock wave. Where bullet penetrate and slow down, or pass through (and hence no knock-back) a small plasma explosion would knock back.

That's not physically possible. A laser beam has virtually no momentum. Knocking back the target any significant amount would violate the conservation of momentum. With the same momentum the body gains when knocked back, something else would have to fly in the opposite direction, and I doubt a few air molecules in front of the guy will quite suffice. Remember, momentum is mass*velocity.

Philip S wrote:Perhaps a +10 bonus to BS (this would be in addition to 'Accurate'). Perhaps simply 'Las weapon +10'.

Well, greater accuracy can already be represented by giving the weapon a longer range, which the lasgun already has relative to the autogun. Remember, the range of a weapon does not only determine maximum effective range, but also accuracy at closer ranges, since the weapon retains the +10 to hit for short range for longer.

Konrad von Richtmark wrote:Most people seem to think that, to make it match established fluff, the lasgun should be given the possibility to be fired fully automatically. Also that a charge selector should be built in, acting as an overcharge pack that can be turned on and off.

The autogun is supposed to be superior to the lasgun when it comes to dealing as much damage in as short a timespan as possible, whereas the lasgun is supposed to compensate with reliability, versatility and practicality.

In the RAW, the higher damage of the autogun was represented by giving it a fully automatic mode which the lasgun did not have. An alternative way to realize the same goal would be to let both guns have both firing modes, but make the lasgun deal one point of damage less.

Problem comes when you throw in the overcharge pack into the equation. In overcharge mode, the lasgun would deal the same damage and run through its clip equally fast as an autogun, and have reliable as a freebie. You could rule that it stops being reliable when firing overcharged shots, but then it becomes identical to an autogun when fired overcharged, with the additional option of firing on normal charge for reliability and ammo saving. Again, the lasgun would be strictly better than an autogun.

No, full auto overcharged lasgun would still not be superior to the autogun. Ammo selector triples the ammo and manstoppers add +3 pen. A harder hitting weapon with more ammo.

Konrad von Richtmark wrote:That's not physically possible.

Pardon?

Konrad von Richtmark wrote:A laser beam has virtually no momentum. Knocking back the target any significant amount would violate the conservation of momentum. With the same momentum the body gains when knocked back, something else would have to fly in the opposite direction, and I doubt a few air molecules in front of the guy will quite suffice. Remember, momentum is mass*velocity.

Oh I see; you misunderstood

It's not the laser knocking back the target, but the rapidly expanding ball of plasma produced by the hit. This small explosion what is cause the knock back, not the beam of light (hence no knock-back if insulated with ceramite armours!)

I got the idea from reading up on lasers. Powerful lasers are used to initiate fusion reaction, because the heat of the vaporised pellet can produce phenomenal pressure on the tritium within. Military test lasers also vaporise flesh and produce 'explosions'. I figure a Lasgun is so powerful a laser (or some strange from of laser) that is has a similar vaporising effect, and produces a similar explosive effect (probably explains how they can take an arm off).

So the knock-back is from an explosion of vaporised gas (from the flesh, so mostly water). Not quite a regular 'fire' explosion, but a steam/ plasma explosion. I expect that the secondary effect would be similar to explosive damage.

Konrad von Richtmark wrote:Remember, the range of a weapon does not only determine maximum effective range, but also accuracy at closer ranges, since the weapon retains the +10 to hit for short range for longer.

I understand, my theory is that a lasgun is easier to hit a target even by a less skilled shooter. No kick, delay, drop, wind. point and shoot. Easy.

Philip

The reason why I dislike the current Lasgun is not because of its inferior damage, but rather because, that the absence of a Full Auto option robs the Lasgun of two very crucial tactical actions: The Suppressive Fire (and subsequent Pinning) Action and the Overwatch Action.
These actions are paramount to winning any combat scenario, and that is what in my opinion cripples the Lasgun.

Didn't realise that overcharge essentially was a weapons upgrade... nice.

LordofEndTimes wrote:The reason why I dislike the current Lasgun is not because of its inferior damage, but rather because, that the absence of a Full Auto option robs the Lasgun of two very crucial tactical actions: The Suppressive Fire (and subsequent Pinning) Action and the Overwatch Action.
These actions are paramount to winning any combat scenario, and that is what in my opinion cripples the Lasgun.

In reality;

"The USMC Rifle manual suggests that each rifleman laying down suppressive fire should only expend 12-15 rounds per minute. The current US Army manual suggests one round every 3-10 seconds ."

This means a Lasgun is capable of suppression fire. Many professional and experienced soldiers prefer setting their automatic weapon to single shot for the majority of situations. Full auto is relatively rare, and requires a particularly dense (in number and stupidity) enemy at extremely close range to even become an option (for an experienced and well rained solider).

So much for Hollywood!

Philip

LordofEndTimes wrote:Didn't realise that overcharge essentially was a weapons upgrade... nice.

It's not. Whilst it's descriptive text might appear in the upgrade section, the list entry appears in the ammo section. Plus, the description itself refers to it as a chargepack, and specifically mentions cutting the entiry ammo pack's contents in half, instead of dealing on it on a "per action" basis (like my charge slider proposal).

Philip S wrote:

LordofEndTimes wrote:The reason why I dislike the current Lasgun is not because of its inferior damage, but rather because, that the absence of a Full Auto option robs the Lasgun of two very crucial tactical actions: The Suppressive Fire (and subsequent Pinning) Action and the Overwatch Action.
These actions are paramount to winning any combat scenario, and that is what in my opinion cripples the Lasgun.

In reality;

"The USMC Rifle manual suggests that each rifleman laying down suppressive fire should only expend 12-15 rounds per minute. The current US Army manual suggests one round every 3-10 seconds ."

This means a Lasgun is capable of suppression fire. Many professional and experienced soldiers prefer setting their automatic weapon to single shot for the majority of situations. Full auto is relatively rare, and requires a particularly dense (in number and stupidity) enemy at extremely close range to even become an option (for an experienced and well rained solider).

So much for Hollywood!

Philip

I'd like to disagree with one of our most holy manuals... Thats probably generic suppressive fire... I remember from Boot and MCT our immediate actions for reaction to ambush were to fire a little more faster than that. I see ambushes being a team's biggest issue. Firepower determines the fight, and the ambusher has an automatic advantadge given they fired first and their enemy is either dead, wounded, or taking cover. Marines are instructed to grab cover and put a hellacious amount of fire back on the ambusher to fix them... Hopefully another fireteam/squad can flank them, otherwise they will go with the risky and assault through the ambush or try to disengage contact.

Regardless I stick with my earlier comment. Just as many worlds and regiments of Guard have probably x-y (X being planets, y being a number of planets that use other planet/regiment's guns) types of lasguns... all similar in design and principle but differing in their... "Luxury Options" like number of shots per powerpack (efficiency or powerpack charge we can say), being fully automatic, being semi-automatic, not having a safety, charge setting (permanent or otherwise), selector switch if it has more than one mode of fire, length, muzzle size, the internals, materials the body and stock are constructed from, lack of a stock, the decoration on the outside, the color, etc.

I find discussions like these necessary to help people find what they want to implement in their game, but I disagree that we should sit here and try and force others to take your opinion as fact... pick and choose what *you* like for *your* game, and stop arguing fictional worlds with logic that realistically applies only in ours. Yes a willing suspension of disbelief, and even then we have those that don't believe in that but sci-fi is a form of fiction that draws imaginatively on scientific knowledge and speculation in its plot, setting, theme, etc. therefore at least in my mind... real science applies in relativity not fact in sci-fi. Last I checked even the most adamant of geeks can only surmise how a las-rifle truly works and even then can it be replicated in the real world with the sci-fi world effect? No.

But hell that was my rant... I'm still going to sit here and stick through the discussion with everyone... just I think we all argue with a understanding that we have to... "win."

I don't have to win a discussion. This thread is a good place to start when you seek to change aspects of the game that you dislike. I really don't care about winning- how could you win a discussion about a fictional world that is set nowhere else in ones individual mind? Sounds like an impossible and rather naive idea

This is a good place for inspiration. Your opinion is as good and as valid as mine. (as long as the arguments fits- which yours do.)

Regading the USMC manual and wether or not that can be used to argue for or against the fact that a Lasgun is capable of Suppressive Fire, only one thing can be said: USMC manual is not the RAW. In the RAW, the Lasgun is incapable of Suppressive Fire because of its lack of a Full Auto ROF.