Divine Magic >> Should It Follow the Same Rules as Arcane?

One of the most difficult things I have internalizing about WFRP 2E is the way that both Arcane Magic and Divine Magic attempt to use the same mechanics.

The inclusion of the Curse of Tzeentch and the corresponding risks for trying to control the winds of magic make good thematic sense to me, and I think it mechanically works out well. I like the different levels of chaos manifestations, and even how the untrained magic of hedge wizardry throws another die just for chaos effects.

But the fact that Divine Magic, controlled and doled out by the gods, follows the same script bothers me... Especially the extremely flattened out effects of the Wrath of Gods repercussions... Not only does it thematically contradict the RP concept of devotion and worship, it's arbitrary nature seems forced in this sense (rather than feeling right for arcane)... But simply restructing the Wrath of Gods tiers doesn't really work well, either.

I'm just not a fan that it follows arcane so closely -- even with Channeling... What about Devotion or Piety as a skill instead? Or Divine spells simply working of a skill check instead of a casting check -- with modifiers based on spell difficulty and PC "standing" with their deity... The need and nature of the casting could impose its own limitations...

I'm interested to see what other alternatives folks have devised for Divine magic...

Most systems I've seen have arcane and divine magic using pretty similar rules. Consistency isn't a bad thing, since it makes it easier to remember how the rules work.

That said, it does seem odd how a cleric of Morr trying to destroy some undead could piss off the god. Some thoughts:

1) The gods are, deep down, still creatures of chaos (alternatively: ineffable), and so you never really know what their plans are. So, yes, sometimes, they just seem random.

2) Throw out the angering the gods table, and apply GM fiat. Really, the table exists because there's absolutely no other limit on spellcasting. Instead, just use your judgment when the cleric is being frivolous/contrary to the diety's wishes, and apply it then.

3) Create some other "cost" mechanism. Maybe clerics accrue "faith points" for doing things in line with the god's interests, and spend these points for spells. Spells can be cast without faith points, but then you risk angering your god and rolling on the table?

But I would shy away from making the mechanic for casting spells different from arcane magic, in terms of different rolls. Replacing "Channeling" with "Piety" doesn't actually change anything, unless you allow a person to be both an arcane and divine spellcaster (I don't). Replacing it with a straight up skill test messes with the balance, and also makes it harder to assign different target numbers for each spell.

Personally, I don't have any clerics in the party, but if I did, I'd use #2.

If you assume the High Elves are right, and they probably are - the Wrath of God table is a construct of mortal belief that his power comes from the gods, it has absolutely nothing to do with any actual gods themselves.

WFRP, p. 170: "... however, the Gods are whimsical in the extreme. There seems neither rhyme nor reason to their dabblings in mortal life. They can bless a person or strike him down in an instant. Due to this, most are viewed with a mixture of awe and fear. Sometimes an answered prayer is the worst thing that can happen to a person."

ToS, p. 28: "Life is anything but easy in the Empire, and like existence, the Gods can be cruel, vengeful, and even uncaring of mankind."

This should prove enough justification for something like 'the Wrath of the Gods'. WFRP gods are not like the nice D&D gods; they're more like 'forces of nature' that have to be appeased to stay their hand, ... for now.

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:WFRP, p. 170: "... however, the Gods are whimsical in the extreme. There seems neither rhyme nor reason to their dabblings in mortal life. They can bless a person or strike him down in an instant. Due to this, most are viewed with a mixture of awe and fear. Sometimes an answered prayer is the worst thing that can happen to a person."

ToS, p. 28: "Life is anything but easy in the Empire, and like existence, the Gods can be cruel, vengeful, and even uncaring of mankind."

This should prove enough justification for something like 'the Wrath of the Gods'. WFRP gods are not like the nice D&D gods; they're more like 'forces of nature' that have to be appeased to stay their hand, ... for now.

The main issue I have with this is the fiction, setting and trappings of the world don't seem to support the mechanical contrivance outlined in the rules...

When has Shallya been capricious, vengeful or uncaring to one of her supplicants looking to heal someone? Or Morr denying a virtuous priest of his order the power to perform the death rituals or oversee the large cities' cemeteries? And why on earth would so many learned, just and virtuous people pledge themselves body and soul to Sigmar if he were so taken by whim or uncaring?

You generally don't attract hundres of thousands of zealous, fervant followers for being flighty or eccentric or unpredictable... The essence of faith is having something you can rely on, not something you have to second guess or cringe about.

divine magic is the same in wfrp as arcane. Both are channeling the winds of magic - those are the source of magic in the world.

all magical styles are simply artifices created to explain and control the magic.

you would think the gods would lose followers, but remember that people suffering from disease sometimes pray to nurgle to help them. People are crazy in the warhammer world.

ynnen wrote:The essence of faith is having something you can rely on, not something you have to second guess or cringe about.

Speaking for myself - when I pray I haven't had what you might call a 100% rate of getting what I asked for, and yet I still pray.

ynnen wrote:....
And why on earth would so many learned, just and virtuous people pledge themselves body and soul to Sigmar if he were so taken by whim or uncaring?
...

The same reason millions of these kinds of people follow a god(or the god) in the real world that gives no real power (no offence intended). Some people need faith in higher powers others dont.

To the topic at hand: To quote a phrase I cant recall where its from "The gods are petty and crule".

I guess more in line with the point I was trying to make -- I can recall examples in the fiction, setting material and the like when Arcane magic failed or had unusual results... But far, far, far fewer examples where divine magic from a devout worshipper failed...

Add the fact that the more "pious" and "devout" you are (in game terms - here meaning the more advanced you are in a divine career -- a higher Mag rating) the more likely you are to incur the wrath. That also seems counterintuitive to me.

Overall, I love the magic concept and mechanics for arcane magic, but felt that somewhere along the line, they just decided to shoehorn divine magic/casting into the same mold w/o much additional thought... that's all.

I don't have a priest in my campaign either, but I too am not satisfied by the current mechanics. Magic and miracles should be different. HÃ¢rnMaster has a mechanic of collecting points of piety which are used to evoke miracles. If I would make any changes to the system, I would lean in this direction. Piety is gathered by doing pious things, from prayer, to sacrifice, to doing things that your god would want you to do. Requests for divine intervention use up piety but do not guarantee that prayers will be answered.

A little off topic, but if I were to have a priest in my game, his or her "power" would come more from the social standing and respect given to leaders of (most) cults, than the ability to summon divine assistance; which I think I would curtail even more than what is now given in the rules.

Thespian wrote:Magic and miracles should be different.

And why is that, since in the Warhammer World miracles *are* magic? Please, enlighten us why the background change is necessery.

I thank you for your time

Lord Gorthuar de Veris
Cult of Nagash

In that case you are right, there is no difference.

I guess I see a priest as not casting any spell, but pleading with his or her god to cast the spell on their behalf. In this case we could use a separate mechanic to represent the pleading, or the degree to which the priest has favor with said god. On the other hand, I agree with those who do not want to complicate the game system any further, and in this sense keeping both mechanics similar does save a lot of headache. But for those of us trying to get a different feel from what is printed in canon, I would love to hear any other ideas out there.

ynnen wrote:Overall, I love the magic concept and mechanics for arcane magic, but felt that somewhere along the line, they just decided to shoehorn divine magic/casting into the same mold w/o much additional thought... that's all.

Certainly I know people who agree with you - I think as a lot of Warhammer its because it has to toe a line of compromise.

A lot of people like the idea of shall we call it traditional fantasy Divine intervention, while a lot of people, (Myself included,) are rabidly against the idea that any God outside of the Chaos Pantheon has any intervention on the world at all.

Which means you *need* the mechanics to be able to explain the spells of priests as being able to be miracles or to be just another system of hedge magic, in able to keep both camps happy.

ynnen wrote:
The main issue I have with this is the fiction, setting and trappings of the world don't seem to support the mechanical contrivance outlined in the rules...

When has Shallya been capricious, vengeful or uncaring to one of her supplicants looking to heal someone? Or Morr denying a virtuous priest of his order the power to perform the death rituals or oversee the large cities' cemeteries? And why on earth would so many learned, just and virtuous people pledge themselves body and soul to Sigmar if he were so taken by whim or uncaring?

You generally don't attract hundres of thousands of zealous, fervant followers for being flighty or eccentric or unpredictable... The essence of faith is having something you can rely on, not something you have to second guess or cringe about.

The point is not that priests (and others) worship the Gods because they gain power or some other advantage from it. The point is that, if they don't worship the Gods, they will call down their wrath much more often, and in much greater magnitudes. For example, if the people don't worship Taal & Rhya, their crops may fail, if they don't worship Morr, their departed may return from beyond the grave to haunt them. So a priest who leads his people in worship lessens the chance of this happening, but in turn he himself suffers a greater chance than others of triggering the gods' wrath. So in a way, the priests take the burden of appeasing the gods away from the people and onto themselves. Being a priest is not about power, it's about sacrifice for the good of the people.

All this does not prevent priests from abusing this position in any way they can, of course. The gods are, IMO, less concerned with genuine morality than with proper obedience, rituals and other formal aspects of worship.

Btw.: Priests do not of course tell all this to their flock (or even to the initiates and lesser priests); they emphasise their 'noble sacrifice' to the people, and enforce morality in them even if they themselves don't believe in it.

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:The point is not that priests (and others) worship the Gods because they gain power or some other advantage from it. The point is that, if they don't worship the Gods, they will call down their wrath much more often, and in much greater magnitudes.

That right there is the best rationale and interpretation I've seen -- very much akin to ancient Greek or Roman mythology... juggling the relationships among an entire pantheon of deities, trying to appease them lest you incur their wrath... I can grok and go with that notion.

Here is some food for thought, prehaps the wrath isnt from the god the priest worships but one of the others, or prehaps even from one of the big four themselves. Given this the more you do in service of one god the more the others get irritated at you.

Conversly from a mechanics point, if you want to make Wrath less risky as the priest increases in careers simply have it that it is only occured if all casting dice rolled come up the same number.

Though I do believe ToS has rules for ways to reduce the chances of wrath, though am not certain as I dont own it yet.

Loswaith wrote:
Though I do believe ToS has rules for ways to reduce the chances of wrath, though am not certain as I dont own it yet.

I didn't find a specific reference to this concept in Chapter X: Miracles, which details the divine lores and the differences between arcane and divine magic... Perhaps it's nestled somewhere else.

ToS also has expanded/optional rules that do use "Faith" points after a fashion -- or more accurately, priests accrue Disfavor when they go against their god's strictures and tenets. Each point of Disfavor adds an extra chaos die to your casting roll...

Disfavor can be reduced by successfully casting spells, as well as by performing rites of penance... The rules for Disfavor can be found on p 241 of the Tome of Salvation -- but this neat concept only gets about 1/2 a page of content.

I think Loswaith means the section on page 113, under "Long Term Abstinence" - but be warned it is very badly worded and makes little sense mechanically.

Here is some food for thought, prehaps the wrath isnt from the god the priest worships but one of the others, or prehaps even from one of the big four themselves.

In other words, "Your prayer is answered, but not by your God"?

Only once in a blue Morrslieb will Tzeentch answer a priest's prayer; it's on the Wrath of the Gods chart.

I think it's more likely that the gods, being Aethyric manifestations of emotion, are capricious and unpredictable. "Wrath" is certainly a strong word to describe, for example, Shallya's displeasure, but I imagine that her priests would feel... say, her heartache... as acutely as a Sigmarite priest would feel Sigmar's righteous anger.

One of the prime reasons why magic and religion work the same has little to do with the setting, I think. Instead, by offering just one mechanic, the players have less to learn and designers have to take fewer exceptions into account. Which works for me, to be honest.

Although I like the idea that priests don't have a Mag characteristic, but have to earn their magic dice by being pious and follow their God's example. They gain dice like players gain XP. Or perhaps they can only hold a number of magic dice equal to twice their Mag score, and have to pray each night to replenish their supply. Praying is a test, with bonuses for pious behaviour, duration of the prayer, offerings, and so on. Not praying means that a die is lost automatically.

One of the prime reasons why magic and religion work the same has little to do with the setting, I think.

That seems like an odd claim to make, considering that both gods and arcane magic come from the Aethyr. To me that seems quite relevant to the similarities between arcane and divine magic.

Paulus Maximus wrote:That seems like an odd claim to make, considering that both gods and arcane magic come from the Aethyr. To me that seems quite relevant to the similarities between arcane and divine magic.

I guess my point is the contention that both the Gods and Arcane Magic are both Aethyr constructs... I think that's a relatively new concept introduced by 2E... Re-reading all the Magic and Divine content from 1E doesn't seem to make that same connection.

So that gets back to a core question -- chicken or the egg. Are they the same because the setting originally demaned they be so, or is it a contrivance of mechanical convenience.

Then a step further... Regardless of if the current setting has them tied to the Aethyr - does that make sense to people? That ultimately book learning and years of study in the Colleges of Magic in Altdorf amount to virtually the same thing as someone who joined a Convent to Shallya and started praying...

Ah, well I require priests to learn big long prayers out of lots of books that takes the exact same time and uses the exact same language as wizards.

That ultimately book learning and years of study in the Colleges of Magic in Altdorf amount to virtually the same thing as someone who joined a Convent to Shallya and started praying...

"Virtually" being the operative word, that does make sense to me.

The years of study that one must endure to become a Wizard are hardly more difficult than the years of prayer and sacrifice that one must endure to become a Priest. (i.e. there's more to becoming a Priest than, to use your words, "joining a Convent to Shallya and starting praying".)

And keeping the established differences between Wizards and Priests in mind (e.g. that Wizards' spells are generally more powerful and dangerous than Priests' spells, or that Priests generally command more respect from the populace), are their similarities really that bad?

i think the fact that priests are viewed as lesser wizards or hybrid wizard-fighters is a problem with the game but that is a mechanical problem. The common answer is that the gods are sentient forces of magic and thus are really an aspect of the magic and Chaos anyway. The avoidance of T's Curse is just that the sentience interacts with the priest differently than raw magic with a wizard.

What I think priests are missing are the soul placating and evil-banishing things that priests do. Maybe priests should have a lot of rituals available to them and they should more ritual focused than wizards. That would be a nice twist. A priest would then work a ritual to cause instability or to reduce fear in a crowd. It would be cool if Initiiate and all priests gained rituals per rank (akin to lesser magic) and thus had some magic from the beginning. Even non-spellcasting priests could gain rituals then.