Overused/Underused >> Topics & Things In Extremes

Whymme wrote:Middenheim has only been used in two complete adventures, Talabheim, Altdorf and Nuln each in one. Middenheim is not running so much ahead of the rest here.

As someone whose GMs have set almost all of their home-brewn adventures in and around Middenheim, I say: bring it on!

We can never have too many adventures set in such a wonderful city location!

That doesn't mean I'm opposed to adventures set in Nuln or Talabheim, or in other named cities (Carroburg, Delberz, Bogenhafen, etc etc) for that matter.

The ideal case is when an adventure author feels free to choose his city location to best match his adventure. This way the adventure will feel most at home, while still (probably) remain fairly portable.

Unless I'm completely lost my mind, the minor BI adventures (the ones in the back of books) are pretty okay in this regard.

Herr Arnulfe wrote:That doesn't jive with the TEW portrayal, but oh well.

All things considered, I don't think "jiving with TEW" is a parameter for v2 writing.

Why isn't there a discussion on how to retrofit TEW to accommodate the current Warhammer history, I might wonder, as that is probably the only practical way to reconcile the differences. GW will always change its world according to its needs, so why isn't TEW (and other major adventures) treated like an open, fluid document that changes with the times?

CapnZapp wrote:All things considered, I don't think "jiving with TEW" is a parameter for v2 writing.

Why isn't there a discussion on how to retrofit TEW to accommodate the current Warhammer history, I might wonder, as that is probably the only practical way to reconcile the differences. GW will always change its world according to its needs, so why isn't TEW (and other major adventures) treated like an open, fluid document that changes with the times?

It was kind of tried with Empire at War, but yes I would love to have a crack at updating the whole campaign so that it starts after the SoC.

CapnZapp wrote:

Herr Arnulfe wrote:That doesn't jive with the TEW portrayal, but oh well.

All things considered, I don't think "jiving with TEW" is a parameter for v2 writing.

Well it should, because the idea of communication between PH chapters has more potential and is more interesting from a gaming POV and there's no WFB precedent to dictate the change.

As for continuity from TEW, I agree v2 background works best on the assumption that a group of PCs never made it through the campaign (or at least, managed to save Bogenhafen and then stopped). But that in no way invalidates the Purple Hand's ongoing influence, rather it reinforces it.

jadrax wrote:It was kind of tried with Empire in Flames, but yes I would love to have a crack at updating the whole campaign so that it starts after the SoC.

Are you referring to Empire at War?

Herr Arnulfe wrote:Are you referring to Empire at War?

Yes I was, a clear disconnect between what my brain was thinking and my fingers were meringue.

jadrax wrote:but yes I would love to have a crack at updating the whole campaign so that it starts after the SoC.

Here's to you getting that wish fulfilled someday!

Gorthuar wrote:

Whymme wrote:
Underused: The structure of society. The relations between nobles, or between merchants and town councils, rivalry between different religious cults (or between different branches in the same cult), and so on. Despite the richness of the WFRP world, most adventures still start with the equivalent of the bearded guy in the inn who gives the PCs gold to fulfil a quest. See The Thousand Thrones; we get six variations of the bearded guy here, in the first chapter.

QFT!

I really miss things like the Gravin's presence in "A rough night at the Three Feathers" from most of the material. *She* was a mover and shaker of the inn, because of her birth and wealth. I have the strange impression that democracy, or perhaps "equality", has creeped into WFRP.

Shadows over Bogenhafen and Power behind the Throne were also adventures that revolved around the structure of society. The whole merchant stuff in SoB and the web of power in PbtT. The attention to this was IMHO one of the points why TEW was (and still is) such a great campaign.

Herr Arnulfe wrote:

Whymme wrote:Granted, thanks to the fact that Middenheim hab been the only city sourcebook available for WFRP for a long time,

Also Middenheim has two city sourcebooks, while other major cities (Averheim, Wolfenburg, Bechafen) have none.

Meh. City sourcebook 2 is just a repeat of some issues in city sourcebook 1. At least, I assume that you were referring to City of the White Wolf / Warhammer City and the first part of Ashes of Middenheim.

There are currently three classes of cities in the Empire; those with an official sourcebook, those with fanmade sourcebooks (the Talabheim of Warpstone, Bergsburg, and a few others), and those which are an open playground for GMs. I don't mind much that, say, Bechafen has no city sourcebook of its own; if I'd want, I could appropriate the city and make it my own, without having to worry that my stuff conflicts with an official version.

CapnZapp wrote:As someone whose GMs have set almost all of their home-brewn adventures in and around Middenheim, I say: bring it on! We can never have too many adventures set in such a wonderful city location!

My city of choice would be Marienburg. With both the White Dwarf stuff, which was revamped at the Black Industries site, and the Marienburg sourcebook there is so much material to run a campaign with ...

At the moment I'm still running a heavily modified TEW campaign. When that is finished, I'd love to do just a city-based campaign, where the PCs' role in society becomes more important, where the people they meet in one adventure will still be there in the rest of the campaign, and where their progress through careers can be reflected in the setting. It could be grand.

Whymme wrote:When that is finished, I'd love to do just a city-based campaign, where the PCs' role in society becomes more important, where the people they meet in one adventure will still be there in the rest of the campaign, and where their progress through careers can be reflected in the setting. It could be grand.

In around 17 years of gaming, the all time best campaign I ever played in was a WFRP game where I played the Captain of the City Watch in Nuln.

Whymme wrote:My city of choice would be Marienburg. With both the White Dwarf stuff, which was revamped at the Black Industries site, and the Marienburg sourcebook there is so much material to run a campaign with ...

Agreed, Marienburg has a lot more going for it. Middenheim was a nice concept for a city book originally because its geography is unique and the cult of Ulric was badly in need of detail at the time.

But I just don't find the city itself particularly rich in terms of politics, religious strife and diversity of culture, especially since they blew up the Templar's Downfall.

Whymme wrote:
Shadows over Bogenhafen and Power behind the Throne were also adventures that revolved around the structure of society. The whole merchant stuff in SoB and the web of power in PbtT. The attention to this was IMHO one of the points why TEW was (and still is) such a great campaign.

Ah, certainly. Couldn't agree more. I just had the v2 material in mind and failed to actually mention that (possibly because of my assumption that we're discussing only v2 material in this thread).

I thank you for your time

Lord Gorthuar de Veris
Cult of Nagash

Whymme wrote:

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:[To state the blithingly obvious: the overused creatures are the ones on which sourcebooks have been published,

You mean, like Vampires? Or Fimir (if we count the unofficial Warpstone 25)?

Vampires are way overused in TTT. I wouldn't mind an adventure where a vampire was used as they should (IMO) be used; as mover behind the scenes, with many layers between them and the PC's (or, in the case of Strigoi, as GM tools for pure terror

).

The Fimir thing; now that's, as you said, unofficial, so no surprise they're not used.

@Purple Hand .. didn't they got a cameo in LLL, I think I remember that you got a hint of their fate?

jadrax wrote:Nurgle cultist butchers... Very overused.

Quoted for truth. It is a wonder anyone in the Old World would be willing to eat sausage

And over all this thread goes to show that despite it's depth, WFRP continues to be treated as a "one trick pony" Chaos + Cult + Skaven +/- Sausage = WFRP Adventure....

It would be nice to see other areas of the Old World (or New World) examined....but, heh, why provide additional material , when you can just keep slaping a fresh coat of paint on the stuff already out.

Fenwyck wrote:And over all this thread goes to show that despite it's depth, WFRP continues to be treated as a "one trick pony" Chaos + Cult + Skaven +/- Sausage = WFRP Adventure....

You've cracked the code!

I wonder if that formula is scrawled on a markerboard somewhere in GW's offices... :)

OVERUSED- SKAVEN a hundred times SKAVEN, CHAOS CULTS- oh its those pesky cultists again what are they called this week. BEASTMEN ah the cultists have got some beastmen..... again .HALFLINGS eat pies they are one of the four prime races, lets have something more please.

UNDERUSED- ELVES as whole there is very little about elves I would like more about Dark and High elves. THE GODS OF LAW there is very little, this is the force directly oppossed to CHAOS and there is just nothing really.

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:Vampires are way overused in TTT. I wouldn't mind an adventure where a vampire was used as they should (IMO) be used; as mover behind the scenes, with many layers between them and the PC's (or, in the case of Strigoi, as GM tools for pure terror ).

QFT

Let's remove WFRP from the modern American take on vampires, shall we? You know, the one where they act as little more than werewolves or zombies; running around in large groups acting generally immature and stupid; only to end in a splash of bad CGI!

Or perhaps even worse, the blatant copying of the Ann Rice/Vampire the Gathering stereotypes.

As a germanic-inspired game, I find all of that to be utterly alien to WFRP.

I will second definitely elves, and halflings, and greenskins, and halflings, and religion, and greater mercantile society (and high society) and halflings and and technology (the signal towers!) and Altdorf.

I will say to Jay the same thing I said to Mr Pramas and Mr Schwalb: I WILL SELL YOU MY CHILDREN TO WRITE THE HALFLING BOOK.

Actually, I want to write all these books.

I'll base my answer off what's available in the 2nd edition for a bunch of reasons I'll not list, as I don't want to be drawn into a debate at the expense of tackling the topic at hand. Further, as there is so much I could write here, and nowhere near enough time, I'll start by solely tackling the races portrayed in WFRP, then move on to other areas later if I have time. However, I'm currently chasing deadlines, so there are no promises.

NPC RACES
Firstly, as has already been stated, the major NPC races with supplements supporting them are perceived to be over-used, in that each has a sourcebook detailing them in WFRP, and at least one adventure supplement to support this. Personally, the sourcebook and adventure model doesn't seemed too flawed to me, as we get to see a race detailed, then get to see them in context; but, it was expanded a little too far in some cases. Take the Undead in the Old World as a single example: not only do we get Night's Dark Masters and The Thousand Thrones, but we get the Undead as the primary race used in both the Border Princes and Bretonnian adventure supplements (Barony of the Damned and Lure of the Liche Lord), and they receive significant word-counts in the Old World Bestiary, Karak Azgal, and Plundered Vaults, as well as mentions in many other books. Yes, different breeds of Undead may be the focus of each book, but it's all Undead in the end, and there are other races that could have been used before reusing the Undead again. And again.

Now, if all major NPC races received the same treatment, then that wouldn't be so bad; but they don't, so it is.

Compare this to the Greenskins, one of the true iconic races of Warhammer in all its guises: oddly, the Orcs and Goblins have neither a racial supplement nor an adventure supplement; indeed, barring the Old World Bestiary entry, and cursory mentions here or there, the Greenskins could as well not exist.

That is underuse.

Overused
Chaos (but only marginally; I feel Chaos as both a concept and a race is so integral to Warhammer and WFRP that it deserves a great deal of attention; although, not necessarily the attention it has received)
Undead -- massively
Skaven -- fairly heavily

Underused
Greenskins -- hugely

Lastly on this: It's obvious other major NPC races of Warhammer are also not covered, such as Lizardmen, Dark Elves, or Ogres, but as WFRP has, so far, been tied to the Old World, with a focus on the Empire in particular, I have no problems with this; that said, it would be nice to see the other races being used sensibly here and there. For example: according to Warhammer, the Moot has a notable population of Ogres; however, you'd never know this if you read WFRP.

PC RACES
This one is more controversial, especially as one of the PC races is so poorly served, that many WFRP players don't even understand what they're playing when they roll one, but I'll get to that.

In short, all of the PC Races, barring Humans, are so massively underserved that it's almost criminal. Yes, Dwarfs have Karak Azgal, but it's so riddled with errors, and so far removed from the Old World because of its location, that it could as well not exist for most WFRP games, especially as the majority of the book is just a big dungeon. What I'd rather know, as a WFRP player, is how do the Dwarfs work? How do they gather socially? How do they mix with Humans in the Empire? They have a huge expatriate population in Empire cities, and are nigh-on worshipped by some factions of the Sigmarite Cults, but what does that mean in practice? Sure, much of this has already been answered in Warhammer, but it's not tackled at all in WFRP. At best, I can roll their height (incorrectly), get a bizarre weight (that's, again, utterly unrealistic), and get a name. Great! Thanks! That really helps. Oh, and if you read the corebook, they apparently are very literal and don't use metaphor.

And if you think that's bad, look to the Elves. How many of you really know if you are playing a Wood Elf or a High Elf when you make an Elf character? Well, the answer will shock many; according to the rulebook, you only make expatriot High Elves. Yes, that means you do not make Wood Elves. No, really, I mean that. If you think High Elves don't live in forests, go read up on Avelorn.

In Warhammer, Wood Elves are the Asrai, an alien, odd, clannish bunch of Elves who gather in magic-steeped Athel Loren. These dudes are seriosly xenophobic, and make for some kick-ass NPCs (and maybe even the rare PC, with a stress on 'rare'). Go read up on them if you don't know them. In WFRP, you don't play this group at all. They are not an option. Only High Elves 'representing distant Ulthuan' or High Elves living in 'enclaves in [the Empire's] forests' are created using the WFRP rules. Go read the rulebook if you don't believe me; there is no mention of the words 'Wood Elf' at all on the character creation section. You create characters that are either ex-pats from Ulthuan living in the Empire in one of the big cities, or you play one of the ill-defined group of left-over High Elves still living in the forests of the Empire (with Laurelorn holding the highest population by far), who are not Wood Elves as they are understood in Warhammer; indeed, they are just like Avelorn High Elves, but without strong ties to Ulthuan.

How many of you actually knew this? Sure, most fans of Warhammer know this, and some die-hard 1st edition fans who are keen to remove the Asrai-concept know this, but most casual players are oblivious. Most believe all Elf characters created are 'Wood Elves' from the Empire, but this is very wrong. Indeed, two-thirds of created characters are High Elves through-and-through with no understanding of the forest, if you use the holy Rules As Written. They are ex-pats in the Empire, living in the cities (with birth-places of Marienburg, Nuln, and Altdorf suggested), wearing Ulthuan styles, living Ulthuan lives, thinking Ulthuan thoughts, but in the Empire. These chaps are nothing like the Elves so many of WFRP's books seem keen to present, and, for a primary player choice in the game, are so under-represented most people don't even realise they exist! Hell, even the author of Sigmar's Heirs ignores what the core-book has you create; the absolute disregard of High Elves in that book is criminal, to my eyes.

This is what the the majority of Elf characters are (using a very wide brush to paint the picture):
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/conceptArt/CnAT100707.jpg
Not this:
http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/woodelves/background/images/art2.jpg
Not that you'd know it from the art, or reading the books.

Indeed, Elves, as a whole, are the least-served PC race by a significant degree. the Dwarves have a questionable supplement and many mentions, the Halflings have details (many poorly researched) in Sigmar's Heirs, and an adventure supporting them, and have a bunch of mentions and NPCs here and there. Elves have almost nothing, barring a few poorly-conceived 'Wood Elf' mentions, or, worse, descriptions as 'Sea Elves' (a race that simply doesn't exist except in the imagination of ignorant Empire folk, as made clear in Sigmar's Heirs and every Warhammer book since 3rd edition -- Sea Elves are just ocean-faring High Elves, most commonly from Eataine).

So, as I step down from my soap box:

Over-used
None -- The Humans deserve the attention they have received, as they are the primary race of the game.

Under-used
Dwarfs
Elves -- massively
Halflings

And just because I believe the Elves have been treated worst, that doesn't mean the Dwarfs and Halflings deserve attention any less -- unless, of course, books about them wouldn't sell!

A great post by "strong IP guy"

There's a lot of things in Andy's post that are in many peoples games who have their roots in the 1st edition, but are almost never given any thought whether they have been properly imported to the 2nd.

Hooray for Andy! Andy for president!

edit- Not that any of the previous posts were les significant. Many previous posts contained so much of the stuff the I agree with that I couldn't think of anything else to write about

Oh, cool - thread necromancy.

WRT Andy's rant on the elves, what about the elf-only careers in the rulebook? Some of them strongly hint to PC elves being Asrai. The kithband warrior for instance.

Whymme wrote:Oh, cool - thread necromancy.

So it seems. Foolisboy's the necro-guy. Again. (not that there's nothing wrong with it. Necromancers are people too

)I didn't even notice that before you pointed it out.

I only noticed because I started reading, thought: "Well, interesting", and then noticed that I had already posted here. That was a bit of a giveaway

foolishboy wrote:THE GODS OF LAW there is very little

They don't exist in v2. Do keep up

Whymme wrote:Oh, cool - thread necromancy.

WRT Andy's rant on the elves, what about the elf-only careers in the rulebook? Some of them strongly hint to PC elves being Asrai. The kithband warrior for instance.

Heh! I didn't even notice it was thread-Necromancy. I reckon there's a joke there somewhere about the overuse of the Undead, but I'm too lazy to make it.

Anyway, it seems I missed the topic first time around, and I clearly had something I felt worth saying.

As for The Elf only careers, you have:

Envoy -- High Elf Career by its description
Kithband Warrior -- No mention of Wood Elves at all; the career description makes it clear it is a career for Elves living 'in the Empire'.
Ghost Strider -- No mention of Wood Elves or High Elves; the career is quite unspecific, although the image is very Wood Elf. That said, the fact it avoids use of any of the similar names available to Asrai equivalents pretty much makes it clear that they are very likely not the same. If they were, they would share a name, if we are to assume good game design (which I'd prefer to do by default, even though we both know this is not always the case).

Personally, I like that the Elves of Laurelorn Forest and their equivalents have their own careers. It makes sense. However, just because they have careers of their own, and they live in forests, that does not make them Asrai, thus Wood Elves, although I'm sure ignorant Empire-peeps would be happy to call them so. There is nothing in WFRP to suggest those careers apply to Athel Loren Elves, especially as the write-up makes it clear the book only provides rules for Elves from the Empire (either High Elves from Ulthuan or those born in the Empire -- although the RAW only allows for those born in the Empire), so I see no reason to assume they do.

I think the mistake made by many, especially WFRP1 veterans, is twofold:

1) The assumption that Wood Elves of Athel Loren are included as a character choice in WFRP2 when they are expressly, and clearly, not.
2) The assumption that because an Elf lives in a forest, he is a 'Wood Elf'. Again, this is not the case, and the High Elf example I provided in the first post shows this, for, in Avelorn, Dryads, Treemen, Sprites of all kinds, and other traditional Asrai gubbinz, happily live alongside Elves in the woods, but Avelorn Elves are not, under any circumstances, Wood Elves. They are High Elves. To suggest the Everqueen of Avelorn is a Wood Elf, while amusing in seclusion, is clearly daft, and might cause Tyrion to get a little upset.

Really, the lack of understanding here just leaves me to believe, even further, that the Elves require more detail for players. Everyone seems to broadly understand the Dwarfs (and there are WFRP1 books describing them, and Black Library books), and the Halflings, though skewed by many from their Warhammer iteration through an understandable lack of White Dwarf reading, are still broadly understood. By comparison, the Elves, it appears, are not, which is a shame for a primary race in the game.