None Human Ghouls

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:NDM, p. 124: "... Morr has set his law firm and Absolute: those who eat human flesh are irrevocably cursed with the taint of the Ghoul."

I think this is one of those ever more frequent scenario's where the distinction between 'fluff' and 'fact' has been allowed to get blurred.

I mean, just thinking logically for a moment, any laws or strictures set by gods are pretty much going to be communicated to the faithful via a mortal medium. e.g. 'The Ten Commandments' = Moses and 'The Golden Plates' = Joseph Smith Jr.

So, in game terms what we are being told is that according to this mortal medium these are the rules that that god has laid down. In other words, its 'fluff' not 'fact' unless we honestly belief that the author is quoting the words out of the gods own mouth.

Unfortunately, the distinction between the two is often ignored in more recent publications and it can cause confusion. Liber Chaotica for instance was quite good in that respect in that it made very clear to the reader that everything that followed was 'fluff' not 'fact', and was pretty dodgy 'fluff' too as it was based upon the writings of various mortals some of whom were clearly insane.

Of course that doesn't mean that as GM's we can't treat these concepts as true, merely that we need to be careful not to assume they are just because they appear in an official publication. It really depends on whether the author intended then to be taken literally, and even then we might prefer to disagree.

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:

Hand of Evil wrote:
Now, the question is when does the curse get activated? I would say AFTER the Morr blessing of the dead, so if a skaven kills you, there is no chance of him turning into a ghoul because your body was not blessed by Morr. This opens up some interesting theories on what happens to your body if left unbless by Morr, zombie, ghost, etc. Mmmmmmm, interesting death myths.

In this case, a human killing another human and eating him straight away (i.e. unblessed), which is what happens most of the time (cannibalism is more common in situations of potential starvation than exhuming and consuming corpses just for the hell of it), would not suffer the curse, right? That's not how I would do things, but YMMV

Maybe. But what if the corpse was of someone that at least did all the right things with Morr, supported his worship, gave to his priest, said a death pray to Morr before battle, etc. It can get complex and very interesting from a role-playing point of view. In your example, I think more wendigo (beastmen) but it overall makes for interest 'death mythos', old worlders would burn their dead.

As for cannibalism, there are a few kinds, you have those like eat the flesh of the dead because the want to capture the spirit, some times this has a ritual with it. Then you have those that are just beast and will eat any flesh, they just see it as food. Then, you have those that just hunt humans for their flesh, they enjoy the taste.

As I said, complex and very interesting death mythos.

Didz wrote:
I think this is one of those ever more frequent scenario's where the distinction between 'fluff' and 'fact' has been allowed to get blurred.....

QFT. I've often thought that in place of the "Warning: For Mature Readers Only" tag some games have, that WFRP could benefit from a "Warning: Fluffy Lies and Subjective Half-Truths are Casually Littered Throughout the Game Text" tag.

RobC wrote:It's a matter of taste, I suppose.

That's a fine one, considering the topic at hand...

The thesis of it being Mórr's curse is surely what the Old Worlders would assume themselves - but is it the truth? Not necessarily...

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:NDM, p. 124: "... Morr has set his law firm and Absolute: those who eat human flesh are irrevocably cursed with the taint of the Ghoul."

This shows us a few things:

1): Ghouldom is a curse, not a race or something like that.

2): It's a curse layed by Morr, a human god.

Therefore:

a): Ghouls probably should not be able to perpetuate their kind by breeding (Lovecraftian Ghouls are cool and all, but WFRP Ghouls are different). Thus, if they want to multiply, they should trick/force/seduce humans into eating human flesh. Which is a nice idea for a scenario right there.

I think BotD makes it fairly clear that Ghouldom can be passed down through generations. The two concepts (i.e. ghouldom being a curse of Morr and also hereditary) aren't mutually exclusive.

Hand of Evil wrote:
Maybe. But what if the corpse was of someone that at least did all the right things with Morr, supported his worship, gave to his priest, said a death pray to Morr before battle, etc.

So? Then the curse would be effective, I guess. But my point is that Ghouldom is usually something that happens when some village is starving because of failed harvest/war/nobles taking all the food for themselves/merchants trying to squeeze the population/whatever. So the peasants have to choose between starvation and cannibalism (and when you need to eat, you prefer your meat fresh...). The ones who choos the former die. The ones who choose the latter are cursed forever. That's 'grim and perilous', and so that's what I should be the case.

Hand of Evil wrote:
As I said, complex and very interesting death mythos.

Yes, it is complex and interesting and there are many reasons for eating the dead, but I don't see how that would influence Morr's curse, unless the perpetrators worship some other god who protects them from Morr (in a similar vein that Khaine 'protects' [sic] the souls of his worshipers from his brother). But that's really an 'out of the frying pan...' situation.

Didz wrote:
I think this is one of those ever more frequent scenario's where the distinction between 'fluff' and 'fact' has been allowed to get blurred.

[...]

So, in game terms what we are being told is that according to this mortal medium these are the rules that that god has laid down. In other words, its 'fluff' not 'fact' unless we honestly belief that the author is quoting the words out of the gods own mouth.

[...]

Of course that doesn't mean that as GM's we can't treat these concepts as true, merely that we need to be careful not to assume they are just because they appear in an official publication. It really depends on whether the author intended then to be taken literally, and even then we might prefer to disagree.

OK, I can live with that. It doesn't change the facts, though: Humans who eat human flesh become Ghouls. If the reason for that isn't that some divine entity has layed a curse, then it must be a more natural one. For example; eating human flesh is such an obscene practice that it will cause the perpetrator to go insane and crave ever more of 'the good stuff', and furthermore a diet of only (human) flesh will have some effects on the body as well. Scurvy for one, emaciation, but also a horrible smell (this is actually true, though I can't speak from personal experience

). Isn't a human who suffers from those things pretty similar physically to a Ghoul already? And if it looks like a Ghoul and quacks like a Ghoul
then it's probably... a duck! Death to the ducks! They will eat you alive, I sez. Alive!

OK, back to seriousness, regardless of whether Ghoulishness is the result of a curse or a physical and psychical effect of living on a diet of human flesh, it should still happen to all humans IMO.

This might be a good moment to repost a little design I did some time ago on this very subject:

"Here are some suggestions on the timespan of transformation from human into ghoul, and on how the transformation progresses.

- A person eats human flesh. From this moment on, two processes start; a physical one and a mental one.

- The mental process is as follows; Every time the person eats human flesh he must make a WP test. If he succeeds, he blocks the event from his mind, but suffers an IP due to nightmares from it. If he fails, he is fully aware of what happened and suffers an IP simply for the horror. Furthermore, (whether he is aware of his actions or not) he has an increasing craving for human flesh. He must make a WP test every month (at 1-2 IP), week (at 3-4 IP) or day (at 5-6 (or more) IP to avoid seeking out fresh meat to feed upon. The test starts at easy (+20%) but gets one step (-10%) harder for every previous succesful test, until he fails, then the difficulty resets. When he gets to 6 (or more) IP and fails his WP test to avoid insanity, he gains 'The Beast Within'; this completes his mental transformation.

- The physical process is as follows: Every time the person eats human flesh, he becomes more and more 'ghoulish'. since this runs parallel with IP, we can just list the changes, and Characteristic mods (total, not cumulative) at every IP, :
1 IP: skin pales, eyes become intenser, mild stench (-5% Fel)
2 IP: Back starts to hunch, nails lengthen, definite stench (-10% Fel, -5% Int, +5% T)
3 IP: Eyes become red, teeth sharpen, strong stench (-15% Fel, -5% Int, +5% T)
4 IP: Arms lengthen, back totally hunched, appalling stench (-20% Fel, -10% Int, +10% T)
5 IP: Teeth beome fangs, hands become claws, terrible stench (-25% Fel, -10% Int, +10% T)
6 IP: Transformation complete; Claws become poisonous, Eyes become Feral, unbearable stench (-30% Fel, -15% Int, +15% T, +5% Ag, + 5% S)

Since ghoulishness is a curse from Morr, it should be possible, before the transformation is complete, to reverse the process. This would involve the intervention of at least an anointed priest of Morr, a specific Ritual, a lot of prayer, penance and sacrifice, and a Fate point."

From reading the latest Vampire counts book, its seems that to be come a Ghoul your village has to eat the flesh of the dead for "generations" for the curse to kick in.

Of course that contradicts both Marienburg: Sold down the River and Barony of the Damned.

BraganÃ§a Escher wrote:The thesis of it being Mórr's curse is surely what the Old Worlders would assume themselves - but is it the truth? Not necessarily...

It makes sense that a cult whose aim is to protect the dead would have strictures and threats associated with the violation of corpses. The problem is that if Morr's curse exists then my implication Morr must exist, so in my game I prefer to stick with the approach that Morr's curse is beleived to exist by those who believe in Morr.

Where this gets interesting of course is that because I still base the theory of magic upon the old Rogue Trader principles of psychic manipulation by warp energy there is a element of influence between belief and reality. Therefore, the fact that a mortal beleives something to be true can make it become true if that individual's mind its sufficiently atuned to the surrounding warp energy.

It may not be a curse imposed by Morr, but to someone who beleives it is then it will look exactly how that individual beleives Morr's curse ought to look. Thus reinforcing the belief and increasing the similarity.

In GM terms this would mean that Morr's curse is more likely to occur in the presence of individuals with a strong beleif in its existence.

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:- The mental process is as follows; Every time the person eats human flesh he must make a WP test. If he succeeds, he blocks the event from his mind, but suffers an IP due to nightmares from it.

I really like your thinking on this and note that you also acknowledge that this is a mental process which is affected by the fear and disgust implanted in the mortals own mind. The only qualification I would add for the purposes of my own game would be the one already mentioned above.

Namely, that the mortal needs to beleive in Morr, or at least have a fear of Morr's curse. So, my modification would read: Every time the person who fears Morr's curse eats human flesh he must make a WP test. If he succeeds, he blocks the event from his mind, but suffers an IP due to nightmares from it. or with my evil GM hat on Every time a person eats human flesh or is beleived to have eaten human flesh in the presence of someone who beleives in Morr's curse he must make a WP test. If he succeeds, he blocks the event from his mind, but suffers an IP due to nightmares from it.

The former modification assumes that a person with high personal will power could shrug off the consequences of their own actions by blocking them from their mind. The latter treats Morr's curse more like a curse in that any true follower of Morr could trigger the curse effects sub-consciously on anyone they believe to have feasted on human flesh.

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:- The physical process is as follows: Every time the person eats human flesh, he becomes more and more 'ghoulish'.

From a purely practical point of view, and assuming that we are talking about a PC being transformed into a ghoul. At what point if any would you sever the players control over their character, and how would you influence the players control over their character to make it more ghoul-like?

Didz wrote:

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:- The mental process is as follows; Every time the person eats human flesh he must make a WP test. If he succeeds, he blocks the event from his mind, but suffers an IP due to nightmares from it.

I really like your thinking on this and note that you also acknowledge that this is a mental process which is affected by the fear and disgust implanted in the mortals own mind. The only qualification I would add for the purposes of my own game would be the one already mentioned above.

Namely, that the mortal needs to beleive in Morr, or at least have a fear of Morr's curse. So, my modification would read: Every time the person who fears Morr's curse eats human flesh he must make a WP test. If he succeeds, he blocks the event from his mind, but suffers an IP due to nightmares from it. or with my evil GM hat on Every time a person eats human flesh or is beleived to have eaten human flesh in the presence of someone who beleives in Morr's curse he must make a WP test. If he succeeds, he blocks the event from his mind, but suffers an IP due to nightmares from it.

The former modification assumes that a person with high personal will power could shrug off the consequences of their own actions by blocking them from their mind. The latter treats Morr's curse more like a curse in that any true follower of Morr could trigger the curse effects sub-consciously on anyone they believe to have feasted on human flesh.

This is an interesting approach you're suggesting, and it follows the 'belief shapes reality' concept that I like about Warhammer Religions (I do love Planescape, after all

) But at the same time, I don't like the consequence that people who don't believe in Morr should escape the curse; for me, that's too 'self-empowering' for the Old World, which is, IMO, much more a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of setting. In other words, it's not harsh enough for me.

This whole point is a bit theoretical, though, as pretty much every human (who hasn't sold his soul to Chaos, Khaine or something like that) in the Old World believes in Morr.

Also, here we're still assuming that it's the belief that shapes reality, while it might easily be the other way around: eating human flesh naturally* causes certain physical and psychical changes, and the belief in Morr's curse was based upon that. After all, reality and belief are in a circular development; reality shapes one's beliefs, which in turn again change reality and so on.

So the Gods are what people believe they are. Therefore, the Lady of the Lake is not only an avatar of Isha anymore (which the Asrai believe, but also a 'human' Goddess of Bretonnia, Knighthood, Chivalry etc. (which the Bretonnians believe)** Therefore, also, while Morr did not at first empower the curse of Ghouldom, now he does, since people believe he does, yet that doesn't change the fact that there is a natural underlying cause at work here.

So what might work best is that Humans who eat human flesh change into Ghouls no matter what, but they do it faster if they believe (strongly) in Morr. Either a bonus to the WP tests for non-believers, or, more harshly (and therefore better

), a penalty to the WP tests for strong believers (Priests, but also those who lean a lot on Morr's cult; berieved widows, for example)***. Or both, of course. Still, more than 95% of Old worlders would fall into the category of 'normal believers' which means that there would be no penalties or bonuses for them.

Didz wrote:

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:- The physical process is as follows: Every time the person eats human flesh, he becomes more and more 'ghoulish'.

From a purely practical point of view, and assuming that we are talking about a PC being transformed into a ghoul. At what point if any would you sever the players control over their character, and how would you influence the players control over their character to make it more ghoul-like?

I would never force the player to give up his character for something like this. Not when they sell their soul to Tzeentch, not when they become Mutants, Vampires or Were-Chickens, and not when they become Ghouls either. I would enforce them to roleplay the vicissitudes of their existence, and I would also encourage other players to react to this development as their characters normally would, with the effect that characters like these will probably be forced to hide their condition, and eventually stand a good chance to be killed by their former friends unless they run away.

At that point, I would say that the player had best make a new character, but only because the alternative would be to run solo adventures for him and to shut him out from the group, which is not likely to be fun. I might actually tell him to make a new character and run a solo adventure for his old character once in a while; one Mutant/Ghoul/whatever, on the run from everything he once held dear; can he find some new place in the world? That could make for good drama.

* What I mean by 'naturally' is that it would happen in our world as well, without any god or other supernatural interference.

** It is not my intention to start a discussion here on the truth about the Lady of the Lake; this example is only used for illustration purposes.

*** On the other hand, genuine believers in Morr who genuinely repent should have a slightly better chance to reverse the curse.

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:This whole point is a bit theoretical, though, as pretty much every human (who hasn't sold his soul to Chaos, Khaine or something like that) in the Old World believes in Morr.

I am not sure it is theoretical, the two largest Ghoul Kingdoms, Vorag and Morgheim, are not inside the Old World.

jadrax wrote:

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:This whole point is a bit theoretical, though, as pretty much every human (who hasn't sold his soul to Chaos, Khaine or something like that) in the Old World believes in Morr.

I am not sure it is theoretical, the two largest Ghoul Kingdoms, Vorag and Morgheim, are not inside the Old World.

How does this affect my point that people in the Old World believe in Morr? Their belief is not conditional on the presence of Ghouls in their vicinity.

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:

jadrax wrote:

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:This whole point is a bit theoretical, though, as pretty much every human (who hasn't sold his soul to Chaos, Khaine or something like that) in the Old World believes in Morr.

I am not sure it is theoretical, the two largest Ghoul Kingdoms, Vorag and Morgheim, are not inside the Old World.

How does this affect my point that people in the Old World believe in Morr? Their belief is not conditional on the presence of Ghouls in their vicinity.

As I asumed your point was;

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:This is an interesting approach you're suggesting, and it follows the 'belief shapes reality' concept that I like about Warhammer Religions (I do love Planescape, after all ) But at the same time, I don't like the consequence that people who don't believe in Morr should escape the curse; for me, that's too 'self-empowering' for the Old World, which is, IMO, much more a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of setting. In other words, it's not harsh enough for me.

As that was what the you refered to as being theoretical.

I'm not sure what you think that I think that you think that I think is what I meant.

Just to stop the confusion: What I meant what that, even if the 'turning into a Ghoul upon eating human flesh' happens only to people who believe in Morr, it does not matter very much in actual gameplay, as pretty much everyone in the Old world believes in him, and thus would suffer the curse if they ate human flesh.

As for Ghoul kingdoms outside the Old World, I Don't know much about them; is 'Vorag' the old 'Strigoi kingdom'? If so, then it is part of the Old World, (yhough on the edge of it, being in the Badlands, IIRC), The other one I really do't know, assuming that you didn't mean Mordheim, which is very much in the Old World.

Regardless of these geographical issues, I would assume that most other cultures have a 'God of the Dead' similar to Morr, and that nearly every culture has a taboo on eating the dead, if only to protect the living!

And finally, I'm of the p.o.v. that the underlying cause of ghouldom is natural, not supernatural (though belief in a supernatural cause might hasten it a bit), so even if a culture encourages eating the dead it's people will become Ghouls, unless they've sold their soul to another power which protects them from this fate (like the gods of Chaos). Even there, I would assume some physical reason for this protection. Perhaps mutation, perhaps just living close to the Warpgate (like the Khurgan).

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:
As for Ghoul kingdoms outside the Old World, I Don't know much about them; is 'Vorag' the old 'Strigoi kingdom'? If so, then it is part of the Old World, (yhough on the edge of it, being in the Badlands, IIRC), The other one I really do't know, assuming that you didn't mean Mordheim, which is very much in the Old World.

Morgheim, (or occasionally Mourkhain,) is the old 'Strigoi kingdom' you are thinking of that is on the Marshes of Madness, kind of close to the Old World, but not really in it tbh.

Vorag is in the middle of the Dark Lands, about half way between Karaz-a-Karak and the Ogre Kingdoms - AFAIK the only God worshipped there was Nagash. (Although we now have two different official versions on who Vorag was.)

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:This is an interesting approach you're suggesting, and it follows the 'belief shapes reality' concept that I like about Warhammer Religions (I do love Planescape, after all ) But at the same time, I don't like the consequence that people who don't believe in Morr should escape the curse; for me, that's too 'self-empowering' for the Old World, which is, IMO, much more a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of setting. In other words, it's not harsh enough for me.

Thats not quite true, or rather thats not exactly what I mean't.

What it actually means is that Morr's Curse would only occur in the presence of someone who beleived it existed. So, for example in the presence of an adventure party which contained at least one character with a belief in the curse. So, a party with no faith in Morr would not be bothered by it unless they were discovered feasting on human flesh by a party of human NPC's who beleived in the curse.

The other option would be that the one you suggested, namelt that the effect is a natural consequence of humans eating human flesh, but personally I am resistant to that idea for two reasons.

1) It would be a breach of my fundemental principle that the only difference between the Warhammer World and our own is the existence of warp energy.

2) It would mean that Morr's Curse would exist world wide regardless of culture or religious belief, which in turn would undermine the concept of it being a divine curse.

Didz wrote:
What it actually means is that Morr's Curse would only occur in the presence of someone who beleived it existed. So, for example in the presence of an adventure party which contained at least one character with a belief in the curse. So, a party with no faith in Morr would not be bothered by it unless they were discovered feasting on human flesh by a party of human NPC's who beleived in the curse.

OK, but still, it is possible to escape this curse (by being an unbeliever in the company of unbelievers). If the mere presence of a believer would trigger it, then that would imply a power of belief much stronger than I want. For example, say a character has a large wart. Most people would just believe this is a large wart. But what is someone comes along who truly and genuinely believes that warts are a form of mutation, or a sign of witchery, or both? If belief (in Morrs curse, in Warts being Mutations or signs of Witchery) can trigger effects in the physical world, the character would become a Ghoul, the wart would actually become a mutation, and/or the character would actually become a witch.

This kind of approach, while in itself very interesting, is not what I want in WFRP, at least not to this extent. Rather, I want the power of belief to shape the presentation of reality, but not its fundamental form or content. For example, belief makes magic be divine or arcane (colour or witchery), but the underlying principles are the same, because it is both just Aethyric Energy, presented differently for different beliefs. If this were not so, then divine magic would not be Aethyric Energy at all (but genuine 'miracles' granted by genuine 'Gods'), because priests don't believe it is!

In a more general sense, in such a world of belief shapes reality, the only thing keeping humanity into msery is it's own belief in the truth of this misery. "Believe in yourself, and you can overcome everything." This is too American for me; I just don't buy it or like it. I prefer a world where people struggle and hope and work and all that, and still fail as often as not, because the gods are uncaring, reality is harsh, and self-empowerment is a lie. Just like in the real world.

Didz wrote:
The other option would be that the one you suggested, namelt that the effect is a natural consequence of humans eating human flesh, but personally I am resistant to that idea for two reasons.

1) It would be a breach of my fundemental principle that the only difference between the Warhammer World and our own is the existence of warp energy.

Are you implying that Ghouldom doesn't exist in the real world? How would you call someone who's an insane cannibal, smells horrible and shows strong signs of scurvy, emaciation and general unhealthyness from living on a (human) flesh diet. I would call that person a Ghoul.

Wikipedia: Ghouls wrote:
The ghoul is a desert-dwelling, shapeshifting demon that can assume the guise of an animal, especially a hyena. It lures unwary travellers into the desert wastes to slay and devour them. The creature also preys on young children, robs graves, and eats the dead.

This is the (Arabian) origin of the term, and except for the 'turn into a Hyena' part, it fits pretty well with both RW cannibals and WFRP ghouls.

Didz wrote:
2) It would mean that Morr's Curse would exist world wide regardless of culture or religious belief, which in turn would undermine the concept of it being a divine curse.

Yes, that's my point. The Divine is an illusion; it can't curse anything on its own. Now If people believe in this illusion, it gains a bit of reality, and therefore becomes able to affect that reality a little bit. But only within the parameters set by reality itself. So, in our case, belief in Morr's curse can accellerate Ghouldom (and repentance might slow it down), but it cannot fundamentally create, alter or remove it, because it is an aspect of reality.

Dr. Rudolf von Richten wrote:
Are you implying that Ghouldom doesn't exist in the real world? How would you call someone who's an insane cannibal, smells horrible and shows strong signs of scurvy, emaciation and general unhealthyness from living on a (human) flesh diet. I would call that person a Ghoul.

I thought all these side effects of cannibalism had been shown to be urban myths?

jadrax wrote:I thought all these side effects of cannibalism had been shown to be urban myths?

Yes, as far as I am aware there is no real world equivalent to Morr's Curse attributed to the eating of human flesh. Although I'm told people on the Atkin's diet do tend to suffer from bad breath.