Magic in Breton???

These are my personal views on how I deal with magic in Bretonnia:

jayhad wrote:1. Use only Hedge Wizards as per MRB and RoS.

Nah! Hedgewizards are Hedgewizards in my game. In theory they could exist in any human centric location but they are not some sort of default magic class. In my game they are a sort of male equivalent to the local wise woman frequently specialising in argiculture and animal husbandry, not to mention the peddling of male oriented charms.

jayhad wrote:2. Use the homebrew magic categories of WFRP1 (such as elemental, druidic, battle, etc). These are quite good and are floating around somewhere.

In my game, most magic user classes including those you have listed could exist in Bretonnia, in fact just about anything except a Colour Mage would be tolerated to some degree. Colour Mages absolutely would not be tolerated because in my game they are considered to be Imperial agents and thus should only cross into Bretonnian territory on official business and under proper escort.

The main problem that other classes of magic user are likely to face is hostile opposition from the local sorceress, who may take exception to having rivals on her turf. They may also run into hostility from the local wood elf kindred's if they attempt to wander through wooded area's.

jayhad wrote:3. Make magic careers like in Kislev: one for druid and one for enchanter. Anyone take a stab at these yet?

Well my view here is that there is only one Bretonnian specific magic class, and that is the Sorceress. The power and knowledge of a sorceress may vary according to her skill and expereince but there is no real need in my book to start assigning levels or something to her class label. Most will either be the wives or mistresses of Bretonnian Nobles and so probably measure their status by the extent to which they have managed to advance the career of their men. The ultimate obviously being to reach the status of Queen, or at least Royal Mistress.

The interesting aspect of all this is the extent to which these women remain under the influence of the wood elves and how that influence is directed.

jadrax wrote:

TheWarriorPoet519 wrote:who says you can't still?

Currently, my diary.

Actually apart from that it really needs a decent Editor to give it a look over, at the end of the day I am not the best person to either proofread or check my own work for consistence and clarity.

Assuming updating this did climb to the top of my 'to do list' is there anything (specific) that people would like to see in the document that is not already included?

In essense, I'd say they have decided to keep grail maidens from the game because they don't do much adventuring... One of them might ask a brave knight to help her rid a place of skaven, or another might roam a battle field to boost morale, but they aren't really the riding off into the world types... they have too specific a job to do on behalf of the lady. Keeping chivalry alive and making sure noone enters athel loren for example.

But for nessecity sake: any non-lady spellcasters should begin as hedge wizards unless they flee to the empire (just change any language and knowledge to Breton of course), in which case they would begin as wizards.

The ladies should either be represented by using the wizard career and removing one of the arcane skills in favour of riding, and you should limit their choice of lore to heavens, life... or shalyan divine magic... you heard me lol...

ErichVonsaig wrote:In essense, I'd say they have decided to keep grail maidens from the game because they don't do much adventuring... One of them might ask a brave knight to help her rid a place of skaven, or another might roam a battle field to boost morale, but they aren't really the riding off into the world types... they have too specific a job to do on behalf of the lady. Keeping chivalry alive and making sure noone enters athel loren for example.

But they may follow and tend to the religious needs of knights errant or quest knights. I can see some of the younger grail damsels adventuring in the name of the lady.

New version, note this could use some line breaks.

Damsels of the Grail
A Web supplement for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay by Alexander J Bateman
With hearty thanks to Mike Congreve and all other members of the WFRP community that contributed ideas to this document
Bretonnia has its own tradition of Magical Lore separate from the Collages of the neighbouring Empire. Based in the traditions of the elusive Fay, powerful female Bretonnians mages know a system of Earthbound Magic that blurs the line between the Arcane and Divine. This document seeks to expand on the material presented in various WFRP Sourcebooks by adding the Spells, Careers and other rules to fully supporting using Bretonnian spell casters as either Player Characters or NPCs within your games of WFRP.
Note that the terms used in this document have typically been chosen as the terms that would be used from the Bretonnia perspective. Therefore Fay has typically been used over Wood Elf and the Otherworld used over the Loren Forest.
Witch Lore (Grail)
Tutored by the mysterious Fay, the unique Bretonnian Grail Witches of the Cult of the Lady of the Lake practise their own brand of Earthbound magic that to Imperial wizards seems dangerously close to witchcraft. Those who dwell within the confines of Bretonnia itself however equate the powers of the Grail Witches more with the miracles and prayers of priests despite the fact that it holds far more in common, in both its castings and its side effects with the Arcane Lores of the Empire. In truth the source of this magic lies somewhere in between the Divine and the Arcane, with the power of the Winds of Magick being safely channelled through the waters of the True Lake. This mystical body of water was created by the Bretonnian Fay as a reservoir of Earthbound magical energy that filters out any effects of Dhar so that humans can safely wield the complex Grail Magic.
Knowledge of this magic is the sole providence of the cult of the Lady of the Lake and its spells are a great secret, customarily only taught by the mysterious Fay known as the Handmaidens of the Lady. That said there are scurrilous rumours of Grail Witches that have gone rogue or fallen from grace that may be able to pass on this form of magic to the uninitiated.
The energy contained in the True Lake is often drawn up into the roots of a lily known as the “Fleur de Lys” that grows only in the sacred places of Bretonnia. Grail Witches often gather these plants to use as ingredients in their magic and potions. Most Grail Witches believe that fresh Fleur de Lys hold the most power and it is a common sight to see a Grail Witch gathering these lilies on the eve of battle.
Casting Spells
As a Grail Witch your Magic Characteristic represents how much of the ancient magic bound to the True Lake that you are able to channel. Spell casting is handled normally but is modified by some new rules. Note that the most common Arcane Language used by the Grail Witches is Arcane Elf (also known as Anoqeyån) although some Grail Witches also speak an archaic form of the Lingua Praestantia in much the same way as Priests. Note that as this is a predominantly Elven form of magic, practitioners of Witch Lore (Grail) suffer from the rules of Tzeentch’s Curse exactly as if they were an Arcane Spell Caster.
Channelling
You need access to the power of the True Lake to cast your spells, while you are anywhere in Bretonnia or otherwise within of 5 miles of a Grail Chapel this is never a problem, as the land is mystically tied to the True Lake and you can cast your spells normally. However, outside of the places you channelling the power of the True Lake is more difficult and all spells first need a Channelling Skill Test (which requires a Use a Skill half action) to draw the True Lake Energies to you. This Channelling Skill Test does not provide a bonus to your Casting Roll (nor will any other); instead it simply allows you to cast the spell. If your Channelling Skill Test fails, you cannot cast a spell this round.
Knights
Many of the spells on this list only effect or are is some way affected by ‘Bretonnian Knights’. ‘Bretonnian Knights’ are for the purposes of this list anyone the caster honestly thinks should qualify, typically Characters in careers with the word Knight or possibly Crusader or Templar in their titles. If knowingly cast upon someone who does not qualify the spell will not take effect, however the spell will take effect if the caster was honestly mistaken.
Witches and the Realms of Sorcery
Characters with Witch Lore (Grail) can Bind Familiars. (But may not Create them).
Characters with Witch Lore (Grail) may also Create Potions and Research Rituals.
Witch Marks
Magic leaves its stamp upon those using it. If you use the optional rules for Arcane Marks in Realms of Sorcery, use the following table. If you gain the same Witch Mark twice, simply re-roll the result. In the cases of Witches using Dark Magic, use the normal rules for Side Effects (see WFRP, page 159).
Marks of the Grail Witch
[Code]
Roll – Result
01-10 – Aura of the Lady: The blessing of the lady of the lake protects you from magical harm. You gain the Resistance to Magic Talent if you do not already have it.
11-20 – Alarming Visions: Whenever you suffer the effects of Tzeentch’s Curse, you must succeed on a Challenging (-10%) Will Power Test to control the sudden flashes of precognition that come with the botches magic. If you fail, you are Stunned for one round.
21-30 – Mistress of Mist: A thick white mist exudes from your skin, like that which rises from the places sacred to the lady. This adds a +5% bonus to Intimidate Tests made in Fog banks and other suitable conditions, but does mean that your clothing is always somewhat damp.
31-40 - Alien: Your mind becomes more like that of the mysterious Fay making you seem arrogant and pretentious. You take a -5% penalty to your Fellowship Characteristic. Modify your starting profile accordingly.
41-50 – The Lady’s Mien: Your skin clears, your ears become more pointed and your eyes more Fay-like. You grow 1d10/2 inches taller. In addition, permanently increase your Agility Characteristic by 5%.
51-60 - Symbol of Nobility: Your presence inspires others with the feudal spirit. The first time during an encounter that a Bretonnian Peasant that is within 6 Yards (3 Squares) makes a Weapon Skill or Ballistic Skill Test against a Noble of Bretonnia, he takes a -10% penalty.
61-70 – Little Friends: Small animals, such as squirrels and brightly coloured birds, are attracted to you. They can be highly inconvenient, as they nibble everything and leave dropping everywhere. You take a -10% penalty to Fellowship Attribute Tests in social situations where such creatures are inappropriate.
71-80 – Fay-eyes: Your eyesight become sharper, akin to that of a hawk. You gain the Excellent Vision talent if you do not already have it.
81-90 – Child of the Otherworld: You hear voices and see apparitions from the mysterious Fay Otherworld constantly around you. This distraction imposes a -10% Penalty to all your Perception Skill Tests.
91-00 – Marked by the Grail: A grail shaped mark appears somewhere on your body (GM’s Choice), Gain a +10% bonus to Channelling Skill Tests when using the Lore of the Grail.
[/code]
The Grimoire
When you gain access to Witch Lore (Grail) you must choose one of the three list of spells provided for this lore. You have access to all of the spells on that list but no others. You may learn spells on other lists in your lore with the Extra Spell Talent.
Spell Lists:
[Code]
The Lady Resplendent - The Lady Rampant - The Lady Reclining
Beguilement of Blondel - Holy Light - Beguilement of Blondel
Doom of Dol - Mercy of the Lady - Doom of Dol
Healing Hands - Shield of Faith - Healing Hands
Holy Light - Spiteful Glance - Mercy of the Lady
Mist of Châlons - Steed of the Lady - Mist of Châlons
Spiteful Glance - Voice of Courage - Shield of Faith
Steed of the Lady - Whispers of the Lady - Voice of Courage
Wrath of Righteousness - Wrath of Righteousness - Whispers of the Lady
[/code]

Holy Light
Casting Number: 6
Casting Time: Full Action
Duration: 1d10 Rounds
Range: 12 Yards (6 Squares)
Ingredients: A Lady’s Hand Mirror (+1)
Effect: The Grail Witch kneels and prays to the Lady and an area is illumed with a bright and holy white light. Place the small template anywhere within range; those affected suffer a -10% penalty to their Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Agility and to all Perception Skill Tests involving sight for the duration of the spell. Any Undead or Daemons affected do not suffer the above effects but instead suffer a single Damage 3 hit.

Mercy of the Lady
Casting Number: 7
Casting Time: Half Action
Duration: 1 Minute (6 rounds)
Range: 6 Yards (3 squares)
Ingredients: A Lady’s Scarf Laced with Fleur de Lys Perfume (+1)
Effect: You protect one of the Knights defending you with the Mercy of the Lady, causing blows and arrows that would hit him to turn away at the last second. All attacks against the target Bretonnian Knight suffer a -10% penalty to Weapon Skill or Ballistic Skill as Appropriate.

Healing Hands
Casting Number: 8
Casting Time: Full Action
Duration: Instant
Range: Touch (You)
Ingredients: A Poultice mixed with Fleur de Lys (+1)
Effect: Your touch heals an injured character of a number of Wounds equal to 1d10 plus your Magic Characteristic.

Shield of Faith
Casting Number: 11
Casting Time: Half Action
Duration: 1 Minute (6 rounds)
Range: You
Ingredients: Vial of Lake Water (+2)
Effect: A Grail Witch surrounds herself with prayers to the lady which coalesce about her, offering protection from attacks. Any non-magical ranged attack made upon the Grail Witch has its damage bonus ignored, that it is simply rolls 1d10+0 for damage. In addition, whenever the Grail Witch is the target of a spell, she may make a Channelling Test as a Free Action to negate it as if she had cast Dispel (see WFRP, page 149). However, if the Grail Witch herself or any Bretonnian Knight that she can see commits any dishonourable act, this spell ends automatically and the Grail Witch cannot attempt to recast it until an entire week has past.

Voice of Courage
Casting Number: 13
Casting Time: Full Action
Duration: 1 Round/Magic
Range: 36 Yards (18 Squares)
Ingredients: A Bretonnian Knight’s Shield (+2)
Effect: You project your voice into the minds of all Knights nearby, calling upon their honour and bidding them to heroically fight on. All Bretonnian Knights within range gain the Fearless talent if they do not already have it.

Steed of the Lady
Casting Number: 14
Casting Time: Full Action
Duration: 4 Hours/Magic
Range: Touch (You)
Ingredients: A Silver Horse Shoe (+2)
Effect: You call forth a translucent white horse who will bear you and a minimum of gear (no more than one of your servants can carry without penalty) noiselessly and with speed so swift it seems unnatural. The horse has the statistics of a normal riding horse, (see WFRP, page 233) but has the Ethereal Trait. Further, the Steed travels at top speed without care of terrain or fatigue, bearing you at double the speed than a normal horse would be able.

Wrath of Righteousness
Casting Number: 14
Casting Time: Half Action
Duration: Instant
Range: 12 Yards (6 Squares)
Ingredients: A Cameo of a Knight (+2)
Effect: You pray to the lady and arcing bolts of lightning leap from your hand to a number of foes equal to your magic characteristic. Each bolt is a magic Missile with Damage 5. If any of the Bolts created by this spell wound an opponent who is engaged in melee combat with a Knight of Bretonnia, then that Foe must pass a Toughness Characteristic Test or be dazed for one round, suffering a -30% penalty to all his tests and attacks.

Mist of Châlons
Casting Number: 16
Casting Time: Full Action
Duration: 1 Minute (6 Rounds)/Magic
Range: 24 Yards (12 Squares)
Ingredients: A fresh bouquet of Fleur de Lys (+2)
Effect: You shroud the area around yourself with a thick white mist, like that which rises from the places sacred to the Lady. This thick mist is summoned from the mysterious Otherworld and prevents any ranged attack traversing through the area from hitting, be they made by friend or foe. In addition to this, any individuals inside the range of this spell may not take Run actions although they may make Move and Charge actions as normal.

Whispers of the Lady
Casting Number: 17
Casting Time: Half Action
Duration: 1 Round/Magic
Range: Touch
Ingredients: A Crystal vial of Fleur de Lys perfume (+2)
Effect: You whisper sweet nothings in the ears of someone close to you, entrancing them unless they make a successful Will Power test. On their next turn, you may decide what actions you wish the character to take and they must do as you say short of actively harming itself. You could however instruct the creature to do something foolish that might result in its harm. This spell only works on intelligent creatures that could find the Grail Witch attractive, (Human, Elf, Halfling, Dwarf, Beastmen, etc.) but not Undead or Daemons, (except possibly those of Slaanesh).

Beguilement of Blondel
Casting Number: 20
Casting Time: Full Action
Duration: 1 Minute (6 Rounds)/Magic
Range: 24 Yards (12 Squares)
Ingredients: A skin of wine that has been flavoured Fleur de Lys (+2)
Effect: You entrance those around you with visions of verdant meadows full of wild flower and beautiful maidens, or whatever alternative paradise exists in their imagination. All living creatures in range with an Intelligence Characteristic greater than 15 must succeed on a Will Power Characteristic Test or can do nothing but stand and reflect upon their own personal paradise. During this time, they can take No Actions and are considered Stunned. If any of the individuals affected by this spell are attacked, then the spell ends immediately for that affected creature. A Grail Witch with often give her guards a quick slap to the face to snap them out of their haze after she has cast this spell.

Doom of Dol
Casting Number: 24
Casting Time: 2 Full Actions
Duration: 1 Hour
Range: 6 Yards (3 Squares)
Ingredients: A fresh wreath of Fleur de Lys (+3)
Effect: You bless your chosen Knight and name the foe that is doomed to die by his blade. You must declare this out loud at the time of casting, for example ‘Sir Jehan Maldemaer! The Dwarf King is doomed to perish by your sword!’ For the duration of the spell, the chosen Knight counts as having a Strength Bonus of 10 when damaging his doomed adversary. You may only bless a single Knight with the Doom of Dol at any given time and you must wait until the spell has exceeded its full duration before casting it again.

Spiteful Glance
Casting Number: 28
Casting Time: Full Action
Duration: Special
Range: 24 Yards (12 Squares)
Ingredients: A fresh garland of Fleur de Lys (+3)
Effect: Your glare transforms a single enemy into a frog. The target can resist this spell by succeeding on a Will Power test, if failed immediately transforming into a small green amphibian. Frogs typically cannot hold anything or cast any spells and have a Move of 1. (See Realms of Sorcery, page 190 for an example stat line.) The effects of this Spell last either until it is dispelled or until the Frog receives a kiss from either a Beautiful Maiden or the Grail Witch who cast it.

Grail Witch Careers
The following Careers allow you to insert these powerful servants of the Lady of the Lake into your games as either Player Characters or NPCs.
Typically, this career path is limited to Female Bretonnian characters that rolled up Apprentice Wizard as their starting career, making it rather limited. That said GMs might wish to allow female Elves from the Loren Forest to enter into the career freely. Players wishing to play Grail Damsels of other nationalities could at the GM’s discretion use the loophole that they were snatched as children from a foreign enclave within Bretonnia. Many of Bretonnia’s port cities have foreign quarters that could justify citizens of the Empire, Kislev or even further away places theoretically being snatched, although they will still have been conditioned to serve the Fay and fully indoctrinated into the cult of the Lady of the Lake.

Grail Maiden
Grail Maidens are the youngest and most untested of the Grail Witches; newly emerged from the mysterious Otherworld of the Fay. They act as the most junior clergy of the cult of the lady of the Lake, although until they have completed their training they are not allowed to preach or conduct services.
Despite the fact that due to their Fay training they have more in common with Arcane Spell casters, such as the dangerous Hedge Wizards and even the Magisters of the Empire, Bretonnians typically do not regard the Grail maidens with any suspicion or distrust. This is due to the fact that the Fay are known to teach all Grail Maidens how to handle magic safely and that no Grail Maiden can emerge out of the Otherworld until she has mastered how to channel the powers of the True Lake.
Like all Grail Witches, Grail Maidens are instantly recognisable from other Bretonnian Noblewomen as they grow their hair long and display it openly rather than always cropping it or concealing it under elaborate hats.
[Code]
WS BS S T Ag Int WP Fel
- - - - +10 +5 +10 +10
A W SB TB M Mag IP FP
- +2 - - - +1 - -
[/code]
Skills:
Academic Knowledge (Magic or Theology), Channelling, Charm, Common Knowledge (Bretonnia), Magical Sense, Read/Write, Ride, Speak Arcane Language (Arcane Elf), Speak Language (Breton)
Talents:
Aethyric Attunement or Lesser Magic (Any One), Petty Magic (Hedge)
Trappings:
Robes, Holy Symbol of the Lady of the Lake, Writing Kit
Special:
You must be a Female Bretonnian to enter this career. If you roll up Apprentice Wizard as your starting career, then you may chose to play a Grail Maiden instead with your GMs permission, in which case you are from Bretonnia. Typically, this career may not be entered during play.
Career Entries:
None
Career Exits:
Cult Attendant, Grail Damsel, Witch

Grail Damsel
A Grail Maiden who completes her apprenticeship graduates into the ranks of the Grail Damsels. Given access to the powers of the True Lake and expected by the Cult to undertake tasks appropriate to their newfound power.
As fully ordained priestesses of the Lady of the Lake, they maintain her shrines and lead devotions and prayers. Some Damsels permanently dwell within a specific Church or Cathedral, while others wander the land in a manner similar to Friars.
The Grail Damsels operate outside of the norms of Bretonnian Laws and Culture, with many of them known for their risqué and amoral behaviour.
[Code]
WS BS S T Ag Int WP Fel
+5 +5 - - +15 +15 +20 +20
A W SB TB M Mag IP FP
- +3 - - - +2 - -
[/code]
Skills:
Academic Knowledge (Genealogy/Heraldry) or Common Knowledge (Elves), Academic Knowledge (Magic), Academic Knowledge (Theology), Channelling, Charm Animal or Heal, Command or Intimidate, Magical Sense, Perception or Search, Read/Write, Ride, Speak Arcane Language (Arcane Elf), Trade (Apothecary or Herbalist)
Talents:
Aethyric Attunement or Luck, Coolheaded or Suave, Etiquette or Meditation, Lesser Magic (Any Three), Witch Lore (Grail)
Trappings:
Good Quality Nobles Garb, Holy Symbol of the Lady of the Lake, Riding Horse with Saddle and Harness, Trade Tools (Apothecary or Herbalist)
Career Entries:
Grail Maiden
Career Exits:
Prophetess of the Lady, Courtier, Scholar

Prophetess of the Lady
Accomplished Grail Damsels often move on to join the Prophetesses, among the most favoured devotees of the Lady of the Lake. These potent spell casters have long served their divine mistress faithfully and many serve as senior priests within one of Bretonnia’s cathedrals. Other Prophetesses attend the courts of important Bretonnian Barons and Dukes, where they not only act as advisors and seers but also ensure that the nobility devoutly follow the edicts of the Lady of the Lake.
As well as powerful spells of battle, the Prophetesses specialise in the arts of astrology and divination, using their magical abilities and visions to attempt to scry into the future and advise the Bretonnian Lords. The Fay also task the Prophetesses with guarding the sacred glades favoured by the Lady, with keeping the hearts of the Bretonnian Knights pure and true and with dispensing the healing power of the Lady of the Lake’s healing wherever it is needed.
[Code]
WS BS S T Ag Int WP Fel
+5 +5 - +5 +20 +25 +30 +30
A W SB TB M Mag IP FP
- +4 - - - +3 - -
[/code]
Skills:
Academic Knowledge (Astronomy), Academic Knowledge (Genealogy/Heraldry or Strategy/Tactics), Academic Knowledge (Magic), Academic Knowledge (Theology), Channelling, Charm or Command, Magical Sense, Performer (Palm Reader) or Secret Signs (Astrologer), Read/Write, Ride, Speak Arcane Language (Arcane Elf), Speak Arcane Language (Magick), Speak Language (Breton), Speak Language (Classical or Eltharin), Trade (Apothecary or Herbalist)
Talents:
Aethyric Attunement or Meditation, Fast Hands or Schemer, Lesser Magic (Any Three), Public Speaking
Trappings:
Best Quality Nobles Garb, Silver Holy Symbol of the Lady of the Lake, 2 Magic Items, Golden Chalice
Career Entries:
Grail Damsel
Career Exits:
Astrologer, Enchantress of the Lady, Politician, Spy

Enchantress of the Lady
The Enchantresses are the living embodiment of the Lady of the Lake, comprising of the Fay Enchantress herself and her most trusted handmaidens. Many Enchantresses no longer see the world as mortals do and are not only except from the usual customs of the Bretonnian Nobility, but also except from the customs of the cult as a whole, being able to come and go as she pleases, exclusively guided by her visions of the will of the Lady of the Lake.
Grail Pilgrims constantly seek the advice of these near mystical figures and Questing Knights seek the Enchantresses’ aid in guiding them in the final steps of their journey to the True Grail. The Lady of the Lake has also tasked the Enchantresses with the duty of organising the defence of the Realm of Bretonnia, and should the realm be in grave danger the Enchantresses rally the Dukes or even the King himself to wage war. Finally, the Enchantresses of the Lady are responsible for gathering up all young children with latent magical powers and whisking them away to the mysterious Otherworld of the Fay.
[Code]
WS BS S T Ag Int WP Fel
+10 +10 - +10 +25 +35 +35 +40
A W SB TB M Mag IP FP
- +5 - - - +4 - -
[/code]
Skills:
Academic Knowledge (Magic), Academic Knowledge (Theology), Academic Knowledge (Any Three), Channelling, Charm, Charm Animal, Command, Magical Sense, Perception or Search, Read/Write, Ride, Speak Arcane Language (Arcane Elf), Speak Arcane Language (Magick), Speak Language (Breton), Trade (Apothecary or Herbalist)
Talents:
Aethyric Attunement or Night Vision, Dealmaker or Public Speaking, Lesser Magic (Any Three)
Trappings:
Silver Holy Symbol of the Lady of the Lake, 3 Magic Items, Bejewelled Golden Chalice, Bretonnian Warhorse with Saddle and Harness
Career Entries:
Prophetess of the Lady
Career Exits:
Explorer, Noble Lord

Sample Grail Witches
Provided below are a range on NPCs portraying the whole gamut of Grail Witches for use in your games. These example NPCs have been equipped with Magic Items to demonstrate the kind of equipment that is available to the Cult of the Lady, however it is no means typical that Grail Maidens and Grail Damsels have access to such items.
Many of the Lesser Magic spells used by these NPCs are from supplements other than the WFRP Core Book. These spells can be found as followed: Exorcism is from Sigmar’s Heirs, Anathema, Dormancy, Great Preaching, Sanctuary and Strengthened Resolve are from Tomb of Salvation, Rebuke Undead and Shadowblood are from Night’s Dark Masters, Sidestep and Tremor are from Tome of Corruption and finally Tap and Vazila can be found in Realms of the Ice Queen. If you do not have access to these supplements, substitute other Lesser Magic spells as required.

Bethany Siddal
Cult Attendant (Ex Grail Maiden)
Bethany dwells in the Couronne small town of Mont Fiona, which lies within the foothills of the Pale Sisters. This is a simple farming town, in which people make their money by trading their cheese and wine with Marienburg and the Empire, where a powerful and growing class of merchants has adopted many strange and foreign customs.
As the single attendant of the small Grail Chapel, Bethany has concentrated upon the religious activities of a Grail Maiden in exclusion to the more arcane matters. She is actively engaged in trying to establish the small chapel more firmly in the town, competing with the popular Cults of Handrich, Shallya and Verena. In particular, Bethany hopes to repair the Chapels broke stained glass windows and faded frescos, and is actively seeking ways to popularise the cult of the Lady of the Lake among the town’s rich merchants.
To mark herself clearly as a Maiden of the Lady, Bethany proudly wears her coppery hair long and untressed, and with this and her piercing green eyes, she cuts a striking figure about the town.
[Code]
WS BS S T Ag Int WP Fel
41 39 32 30 40 48 41 46
A W SB TB M Mag IP FP
1 14 3 3 4 1 0 0
[/code]
Skills:
Academic Knowledge (Theology), Channelling, Charm, Common Knowledge (Bretonnia), Gossip, Magical Sense, Perception, Read/Write, Ride, Speak Arcane Language (Arcane Elf), Speak Language (Breton, Classical)
Talents:
Dealmaker, Lesser Magic (Great Preaching), Mimic, Petty Magic (Hedge), Public Speaking, Suave
Combat:
Magic: 1; Great Preaching, Petty Magic (Hedge)
Armour: Blue Robes of the Cult of the Lady of the Lake
Armour Points: Head: 0 Arms: 0 Body: 0 Legs: 0
Weapons: Quarterstaff (1d10+1, Defensive, Pummelling)
Trappings:
Holy Symbol of the Lady of the Lake, Sacrament of the Lady
Sacrament of the Lady
Academic Knowledge: Theology
Powers: Anyone eating a Sacrament of the Lady is stunned for 1d10 rounds as images of the fallen grail companions flood their minds. At the end of this period of being stunned, if the user is a Spell Caster they may immediately attempt to cast any single spell they know, and may choose to roll up to double their Magic Characteristic on the casting roll. (This spell may be a Ritual or any other spell, but the user must start to cast it upon the round they cease to be stunned or all benefits of the Sacrament are lost.) Additionally the Grail Witches use Sacraments of the Lady extensively in their Ritual Magic in much the same way as the Magister’s of the Empire make use of Power Stones.
History: Only created by senior Grail Witches within the Cult of the Lady of the Lake, these thin and translucent wafers contain the very essence of Bretonnia. Highly prised in the Cult of the Lady, they impart images of religious ecstasy into the minds of anyone who places one on their tongue.

Isabeau de Brionne
Grail Damsel (Ex Grail Maiden)
One of the many Damsels attending the impressive Grail Cathedral of Saint Leonidas that dominates Brionne, Isabeau is the daughter of Gaston, brother of Duke Theodoric of Brionne himself. She is a true child of Bretonnia’s ‘City of Thieves’ and when she is not occupied by her religious duties, Isabeau spends much of her time in the clubs, taverns and coffee shops of Brionne’s famous Rue de L’Orfavrerieo.
Isabeau also frequently attends the Hall of Minstrels where she is a popular patron of the cities entertainers, many of whom via for her favour by composing sonnets that sing of her virtue, beauty and grace. Gossip romantically links her with many of Brionne’s most renowned men folk, from dashing Knights Errant to swashbuckling Pirate Lords. For her part, Isabeau seems to do little to combat these rumours, and it seems that she is content to fill her days with song, drink, assignations and the occasional bout of Brionne’s latest Pox.
[Code]
WS BS S T Ag Int WP Fel
37 34 31 33 50 53 48 55
A W SB TB M Mag IP FP
1 13 3 3 4 2 0 0
[/code]
Skills:
Academic Knowledge (Genealogy/Heraldry, Magic, Theology), Channelling, Charm, Command, Common Knowledge (Bretonnia), Gossip, Heal, Magical Sense, Read/Write, Ride, Search, Speak Arcane Language (Arcane Elf), Speak Language (Breton), Trade (Apothecary)
Talents:
Etiquette, Lesser Magic (Skywalk, Strengthened Resolve, Tap, Vazila), Lightning Reflexes, Luck, Petty Magic (Hedge), Savvy, Suave, Witch Lore (Grail: Resplendent)
Combat:
Magic: 2; Petty Magic (Hedge), Skywalk, Strengthened Resolve, Tap, Vazila, Witch Lore (Grail: Reclining)
Armour: Good Quality Noble’s Garb
Armour Points: Head: 0 Arms: 0 Body: 0 Legs: 0
Weapons: Sword (Hand Weapon, 1d10+3)
Trappings:
Holy Symbol of the Lady of the Lake, Grail Chalice of Healing, Bretonnian Warhorse with Saddle and Harness, Writing Kit, Trade Tools (Apothecary)
Grail Chalice of Healing
Academic Knowledge: Theology
Powers: The first person to drink from this chalice each day automatically heals 2d10 Wounds. (This will not take a characters wounds total over their original maximum)
History: Said to be crafted by the Fay Enchantress herself, this unassuming silver chalice magically refills itself with the healing waters of the True Lake over the course of each day.

Anna-Morgause Avallach – Dark Damsel
Warlock (Ex Grail Maiden – Ex Grail Damsel – Ex Witch)
Once the attendant at the chapel in the village of Clemenceau in Parravon, Anna-Morgause’s life transformed forever when she travelled to Parravon and met with a mysterious and immortal Dark Fay who educated her in the lies of the Lady of the Lake.
Having supped form the Blood Grail Anna-Morgause know believes she sees the world for what it truly is, and works against all agents of the Fay, such as the Cult of the Lady and the Empire’s Collages of Magic. In particular, she travels to the mysterious Waystones and defaces the ancient runes upon them; causing whirlpool eddies of dangerous black magic to spill into the countryside.
There is seemingly no foul deed that Anna-Morgause Avallach will not stoop to in her crusade against the Fay, She summons Daemons and deals with the Undead, seduces Knights and poisons fair Grail Maidens while spreading her heresy of lies. If indeed Lies they be.
[Code]
WS BS S T Ag Int WP Fel
40 37 42 41 40 52 51 54
A W SB TB M Mag IP FP
1 14 4 4 4 2 4 0
[/code]
Skills:
Academic Knowledge (Daemonology, Genealogy/Heraldry, Magic, Theology), Channelling+10%, Charm Animal, Charm+10%, Common Knowledge (Bretonnia+10%, Chaos Wastes, Estalia), Concealment, Disguise, Gossip, Haggle, Heal, Hypnotism, Intimidate, Magical Sense+10%, Perception, Read/Write, Ride+10%, Search, Speak Arcane Language (Arcane Elf, Daemonic), Speak Language (Breton), Trade (Herbalist+10%)
Talents:
Acute Hearing, Aethyric Attunement, Dark Lore (Chaos), Dark Magic, Etiquette, Lesser Magic (Magic Alarm, Shadowblood, Sidestep), Petty Magic (Hedge), Sixth Sense, Suave, Very Resilient, Witch Lore (Grail: Reclining), Witchcraft (Form of the Soaring Raven, Omen)
Combat:
Magic: 2; Dark Lore (Chaos), Form of the Soaring Raven, Magic Alarm, Omen, Petty Magic (Hedge), Shadowblood, Sidestep, Witch Lore (Grail: Resplendent)
Armour: Good Quality Nobles Garb under Black Robes
Armour Points: Head: 0 Arms: 0 Body: 0 Legs: 0
Weapons: Misericorde (Dagger, 1d10+1)
Trappings:
Crystal of Malfleur, Healing Poultice, Lucky Charm, Holy Symbol of the Dark Lady of the Lake, Riding Horse with Saddle and Harness, Writing Kit, Trade Tools (Herbalist)
Crystal of Malfleur
Academic Knowledge: History
Powers: Any character with the ‘Magical Sense’ talent may use this item to expand its effects. As a full round action, the character may make a Magic Sense roll, upon a success he becomes fully aware of all living creatures within 48 yards, and is fully detailed upon their appearance, equipment and any magic items they are carrying. (Although note that correctly identifying such Magic Items will still require the appropriate Academic Knowledge check.) This power is not obscured by walls, cover or any other form of concealment. In Addition the Character Gains the ‘Dark Magic’ Talent if they do not already have it.
History: Malfleur was the sorceress consort of the treasonous Maldred the Duke of Mousillon, and this polished black crystal on a golden chain is a fearsome artefact created by her very hands.

Helena Bonsante – Daughter of the Black-Hearted Beast of Bretonnia
Prophetess of the Lady (Ex Grail Maiden – Ex Grail Damsel – Ex Courtier)
The Daughter of Baron Flaubert Bonsante, who the peasantry know as the Black-Hearted Beast of Bretonnia, Helena is as ruthless as her sire, famously entombing several Dwarvern Tomb Robbers who were trespassing in her father’s mines alive under masses of rubble.
Trained by the Fay in the arts of the Lady, Helena is a powerful sorceress specialising in the study of Magic from Bretonnia’s past. While Helena would happily spend her days in quiet magical experimentation, her father however has other ideas. Worried about his ill health caused by the dragon fang embedded in his skull and lacking any male heir, he passionately seeks to ensure the succession of his land. With this in mind, now that Helena is of marriageable age, the Baron is actively looking for a suitable suitor that he can marry her off too. As the whole of the Barony is her dowry, suitors are queuing up to wed Helena, despite her somewhat cold personality.
[Code]
WS BS S T Ag Int WP Fel
31 33 29 36 54 66 70 62
A W SB TB M Mag IP FP
1 14 2 3 4 3 - -
[/code]
Skills:
Academic Knowledge (Astronomy, Genealogy/Heraldry, History, Magic+10%, Theology), Blather, Channelling+10%, Charm, Command, Common Knowledge (Bretonnia+20%), Evaluate, Gossip, Heal, Intimidate, Magical Sense+10%, Perception, Read/Write+10%, Ride+10%, Search, Secret Signs (Astrologer), Speak Arcane Language (Arcane Elf+10%, Magick), Speak Language (Breton+10%, Classical, Reikspiel), Trade (Apothecary)
Talents:
Aethyric Attunement, Coolheaded, Etiquette, Lesser Magic (Exorcism, Rebuke Undead, Sanctuary, Tremor), Meditation, Petty Magic (Hedge), Public Speaking, Savvy, Schemer, Sixth Sense, Strong-minded, Witch Lore (Grail: Rampant)
Combat:
Magic: 3; Exorcism, Petty Magic (Hedge), Rebuke Undead, Sanctuary, Tremor, Witch Lore (Grail: Rampant)
Armour: Best Quality Noble’s Garb
Armour Points: Head: 0 Arms: 0 Body: 0 Legs: 0
Weapons: Staff of Radiance (Quarterstaff, 1d10+0, Defensive, Pummelling)
Trappings:
Amulet of Righteous Silver shaped into a Holy Symbol of the Lady of the Lake, Golden Chalice, Purse with 100 gc, Riding Horse with Saddle and Harness, Writing Kit, Trade Tools (Apothecary), Lady in Waiting
Staff of Radiance
Academic Knowledge: Necromancy
Powers: Counts as a Quarterstaff; Once per day, upon a word of command, (Typically the word ‘Light’ in Lingua Praestantia,) the wielder can make the staff glow with a terrible ghostly light for 1d10 rounds. While glowing, all melee attacks upon the bearer become Very Hard (-30%). However, as the light makes it easy to pinpoint the wielder, any opponents’ attempts to hit the wielder with Ranged Combat become Easy (+20%).
History: During King Charlan’s Errantry War, peasant Tomb Robbers recovered this stave from barrow within the Border Princes. It is made of a single long bone from an unknown species that has strange runes carved upon its length that date back to the time of an ancient empire that is said to have once held sway over the whole of the area around the Black Gulf. At its end, the staff’s creator has capped it with a large amethyst Endstone, around twice the size of a man’s fist and carved with ancient runes of formidable power.
Amulet of Righteous Silver
Academic Knowledge: Magic
Powers: Grants the wearer complete immunity to all psychological effects (such as Fear and Terror) caused by Undead.
History: These charms are created from pure silver blessed upon the alter of a legitimate god and are highly prized by Tomb Robbers, Vampire Hunters and others who fear they will come into contact with the walking dead.

Morgiana - The Fay Enchantress of Bretonnia
Enchantress of the Lady (Ex Entertainer – Ex Charlatan – Ex Grail Maiden – Ex Grail Damsel – Ex Prophetess of the Lady)
The most formidable of the Grail Witches and the nominal head of the Cult of the Lady of the Lake, the Fay Enchantress is a reclusive and mysterious figure presumed to dwell on the mist shrouded Isle de Lys that lies in the Lac de Châlons. As the personal representative of the lady of the Lake, her will is that of the Goddess and even Kings and Dukes must cede to her will. Each Grail Knight has sworn to uphold her honour and obey her commands and in theory, their vows ensure that they uphold this duty over petty infighting or loyalty to any blackguard or tyrant. An enchantingly beautiful Fay, she rides upon the unicorn Silvaron and carries a toad familiar, reputedly a wizard who once annoyed her.
[Code]
WS BS S T Ag Int WP Fel
41 52 37 44 75 71 76 82
A W SB TB M Mag IP FP
1 16 3 4 5 4 0 3
[/code]
Skills:
Academic Knowledge (Astronomy+10%, Genealogy/Heraldry, Law, Magic+20%, Strategy/Tactics, the Arts, Theology+20%), Blather, Channelling+20%, Charm Animal+10%, Charm+20%, Command+20%, Common Knowledge (Bretonnia+10%, Elves+10%, the Empire), Disguise, Evaluate, Gamble, Gossip+10%, Haggle, Heal, Hypnotism, Intimidate, Magical Sense+20%, Perception+20%, Performer (Musician, Palm Reader, Singer), Read/Write+10%, Ride+20%, Search, Secret Language (Thieves’ Tongue), Secret Signs (Astrologer), Slight of Hand, Speak Arcane Language (Arcane Elf+20%, Magick+10%), Speak Language (Breton+20%, Classical, Eltharin+10%, Reikspiel, Tilean), Swim, Trade (Apothecary+20%, Herbalist+20%)
Talents:
Aethyric Attunement, Coolheaded, Dealmaker, Etiquette, Excellent Vision, Fast Hands, Flee!, Lesser Magic (Anathema, Blessed Weapon, Dispel, Dormancy, Exorcism, Great Preaching, Rebuke Undead, Sanctuary, Sidestep, Tap), Lightning Reflexes, Meditation, Mimic, Night Vision, Petty Magic (Hedge), Public Speaking, Savvy, Schemer, Seasoned Traveller, Suave, Trick Riding, Witch Lore (Grail: Resplendent)
Special Rules:
Supreme Aura of the Lady: When she is angry Morgiana’s eyes spit lighting and she is surrounded by a potent shield of powerful mystical energy. Morgiana may gain all the benefits of the Fearsome Trait at will.
Combat:
Magic: 4; Anathema, Blessed Weapon, Dispel, Dormancy, Exorcism, Great Preaching, Petty Magic (Hedge), Rebuke Undead, Sanctuary, Sidestep, Tap, Witch Lore (Grail: Resplendent)
Armour: Best Quality Nobles Garb with the Girdle of Gold
Armour Points: Head: 5 Arms: 5 Body: 5 Legs: 5
Weapons: Fay Long-Sword (Best Quality Hand Weapon, 1d10+3)
Trappings:
Best Quality Lute, Silver Holy Symbol of the Lady of the Lake, The Chalice of Potions, Morgiana’s Mirror, Silvaron (Unicorn mount), Toad Familiar (Magic Focus, Magic Power), Virtually anything else she wants.
The Chalice of Potions
Academic Knowledge: Alchemy
Powers: Once each hour a character with Witch Lore (Grail) may use the Chalice to create a single draught of any magic potion. This requires no ingredients or skill test. The potion thus created must be drunk from the chalice within one hour however, otherwise it simply dissipates. Potions created by the chalice may not be poured out into other containers.
History: One of the most potent items of the Cult of the Lady of the Lake, this bejewelled Chalice of pure gold holds powerful alchemical powers for those who know how to correctly utilise it.
Morgiana’s Mirror
Academic Knowledge: Genealogy/Heraldry
Powers: While she holds her Mirror, Morgiana has full knowledge of any spells known to any spell caster within 36 feet (18 squares) of her, and may cast those spells as if they were her own. This item has no effect for anyone save the Fay Enchantress.
History: Crafted by Morgiana herself, this enchanted silver hand mirror allows her to peer into the hearts and minds of other spell casters, allowing her to turn the magic’s of others to her will.
The Girdle of Gold
Academic Knowledge: Magic
Powers: The wearer of the Girdle gains 5 additional points of Armour on all locations. No location can have more than 5 points of armour in his way. Additionally when worn by a woman all attacks to strike the wearer or her steed are at -20%. This penalty does not stack with the penalties provided by any shield carried by the wearer.
History: This shining belt of gold is woven with magical wards of otherworldly power not only protecting its wearer as securely as the strongest plate mail but defining her enemies to strike at her true.

Tokens of the Damsel
Bretonnia has a long tradition of noblewomen giving their favoured Knights tokens of their support. These items range from ribbons and handkerchiefs to brooches or even a lock of hair encased in a small locket or preserved in glass. Grail Witches often partake in this tradition and such Tokens of their favour are highly prized by Bretonnia’s Knights.
The following table provides some common Tokens and Charms given out by Bretonnian Noblewomen. Also listed is a Blessing that the Bretonnians believe that the Token provides; at the GM’s discretion the Token has a 5% chance of activating and if the Tokens is worn and the appropriate situation arises. A test to check for this blessing may only be attempted once per day per charm and bonuses from multiple Tokens or Charms do not stack. As typically only Bretonnian Nobles believe in the power of these charms, Characters who are not part of the Bretonnian Noble Caste gain no benefit for wearing them.
[Code]
Charm Type – Cost – Enc – Avail – Blessing
Silk Ribbon - 1 s - 0 - Average - +1 Critical Value
Silk Handkerchief – 5 s - 0 - Scarce - +10% to Resist Poison
Brooch - 10 gc - 0 - Rare - +10% to Resist Fear and Terror
Lock of Hair – 25 gc - 0 – Very Rare - +10% to Resist Magic
[/code]

Catalogue of Potions
Grail Witches commonly create two potions unknown in the rest of the Old World; see Realms of Sorcery Chapter VII for rules on their creation.

Blessed Draught
Often gifted to Bretonnian heroes before they embark on a great quest, the Grail Witches brew these potions from the water of the True Lake enthused with secret herbs.
Effect: You increase your Strength Bonus by +3 for an hour after drinking this potion.
Lag Time: 1 round
Volatility: Moderate
Ingredient Cost: 350 gc
Ingredient Locale: Bretonnian Lake
Ingredient Difficulty: Hard (-20%)
Creation Difficulty: Challenging (--10%)
Creation Time: 2 months

Potion Sacre
Brewed from the holy Lake Water of a Bretonnian cathedral mixed with the tears of a morning Grail Witch, the Potion Sacre is a powerful aid to spell casting.
Effect: For the next hour you gain a +5 bonus to all Casting Rolls you make.
Lag Time: 1 round
Volatility: Major
Ingredient Cost: 1100 gc
Ingredient Locale: Bretonnian Lake
Ingredient Difficulty: Hard (+20%)
Creation Difficulty: Hard (+20%)
Creation Time: 1 month

jadrax wrote:New version, note this could use some line breaks.

Yikes, that's a lot of material there. Can we expect a PDF treatment of this at some point in time or should I get busy with the old copy and paste routine?

Well it was oldscool asking me if he could go through the hassle of making version 1 into a pdf that motivated me to updating it into something slightly less rough, so if you are lucky he may do it again. ;o)

ErichVonsaig wrote:But for nessecity sake: any non-lady spellcasters should begin as hedge wizards unless they flee to the empire (just change any language and knowledge to Breton of course), in which case they would begin as wizards.

I would argue that the most likely reason a magic user would flee the Empire into Bretonnia is that they are in breach of the Imperial Law. That suggests that they are rogue colour mages, who have been caught dabbling in multi-hued magic, or they are necromancers, elementalists, druids, witches or any number of other magic user manifestations that don't fit in with the colour code. As hedgewizards are actually tolerated in the Empire that would be the least likely cause of their migration to Bretonnia.

Having said that in my game they probably just walked out of the frying pan into the fire, as Bretonnian sorceresses are very protective of their territory and probably won't take kindly to their arrival either, but at least they are less well organised that the Order of the Hammer.

In practice, Marienburg would normally be a safer option as a refuge point for an out of favour magic Imperial Magic user.

ErichVonsaig wrote:The ladies should either be represented by using the wizard career and removing one of the arcane skills in favour of riding, and you should limit their choice of lore to heavens, life... or shalyan divine magic... you heard me lol...

I'm assuming that as these damsels were originally trained or mentored by the Elves of Athel Loren, then their skills will be based upon the use of multi-hued magic, in the mixes and combinations commonly used by the wood-elves. RoS does not really explain Wood Elf magic specifically but the Wood Elf source book contains a whole section on Fey Magic which is heavily based upon illusion and glamours and the manipulation of nature. There are some specific spells listed, but I suspect there may be more in the WFB Wood Elf army material.

The information published by Jadrax above seems to capture the right feel, but I'm not sure if it is based upon WFB sources or free-written. I've taken a copy for future reference by the way, so if you post to a website later I'd be interested in a url for it.

Didz wrote:The information published by Jadrax above seems to capture the right feel, but I'm not sure if it is based upon WFB sources or free-written. I've taken a copy for future reference by the way, so if you post to a website later I'd be interested in a url for it.

Its all my own work, but heavily researched from WFRP2 Knights of the Grail, WFRP2 Barony of the Damned, WFRP2 Realms of Sorcery, WFRP2 Various other books for minor details, WFRP1 Realms of Sorcery, WFRP1 Lichmaster, WFB Bretonnia Army Book (Both Versions), Warhammer Quest - Bretonnian Knight Character Pack, The Bretonnia Project - The Corrupt Kingdom of Bretonnia, Brionne - The City of Thieves and Strike-to-Stun.

jadrax wrote:Its all my own work, but heavily researched

Well, all I can say is well done, the fact that its based on official references merely makes it even more impressive.

As i said before I've got the Wood Elf source book but that concentrates on the use of magic by the Wood elves themselves and includes Tree Singing, Fury of the Forest, The Hidden Path, The Twilight Host, Ariel's Blessing and The Call of the Hunt, not all of which are valid for Fey Enchantresses lving in the Bretonnian Court.

Only thing its lacking is a Fury of the Spirits/Glacial Surge equivalent table.

PsyckoSama wrote:Only thing its lacking is a Fury of the Spirits/Glacial Surge equivalent table.

I thought long and hard about that, and basically I do not think one would make any sense real - WFB describes the side effects of there magic as things like milk curdling, spirits manifesting and the caster being heard talking to beings that others cannot see. There is no reason to include that on a separate table apart from to artificially conform to the expectation there should be one.

jadrax wrote:

PsyckoSama wrote:Only thing its lacking is a Fury of the Spirits/Glacial Surge equivalent table.

I thought long and hard about that, and basically I do not think one would make any sense real - WFB describes the side effects of there magic as things like milk curdling, spirits manifesting and the caster being heard talking to beings that others cannot see. There is no reason to include that on a separate table apart from to artificially conform to the expectation there should be one.

They already have specialist tables for Witches and Clerics, and I do NOT think that Damsel's should use the wizard table as their magic is filtered through Athel Loren and the "Lady of the Lake". THey should have a specialist table. Failing that, they should use Wrath of the Gods. Tzeenich's Curse doesn't fit at all.

PsyckoSama wrote:They already have specialist tables for Witches and Clerics, and I do NOT think that Damsel's should use the wizard table as their magic is filtered through Athel Loren and the "Lady of the Lake".

Certainly there magic is not 'filtered through Athel Loren and the "Lady of the Lake"' in my document and I cannot find any evidence that supports that it is in any WFRP document. Indeed the Lake Water thing that I have done here is basically taking about two sentences and massively expanding them.

PsyckoSama wrote:THey should have a specialist table.

I have to ask why they should? Also and I think much more important, not one person has ever managed to suggest anything that is more appropriate since my first post on the old forums.

PsyckoSama wrote:Failing that, they should use Wrath of the Gods. Tzeenich's Curse doesn't fit at all.

I really fail to see why it 'doesn't fit at all'. Up until this document they where using the Tzeentch's Curse tables, the fluff supports that suffer from the Tzeenech's Curse tables, the Elves who taught them this magic use the Tzeenech's Curse tables and even the Ice Witch's, who I most closely based the magic on, actually use the Tzeenech's Curse tables in all but one circumstance anyway.

jadrax wrote:Certainly there magic is not 'filtered through Athel Loren and the "Lady of the Lake"' in my document and I cannot find any evidence that supports that it is in any WFRP document. Indeed the Lake Water thing that I have done here is basically taking about two sentences and massively expanding them.

Thier magic does not subscribe to any color lore and Fay magic tends to make heavy use of the spirits of Athel Loren to do the job rather than pure high magic. Also, Damsel's are as much priests of the Lady as they are wizards. Frankly, I cannot find a more clear cut example of a witch lore than Damsel magic.

jadrax wrote: I have to ask why they should? Also and I think much more important, not one person has ever managed to suggest anything that is more appropriate since my first post on the old forums.

You should because this is incomplete without it. As for what is appropriate, maybe we should try discourse rather than you just dismissing the idea out of hand. Give me some time and I'll try and come up with some ideas...

Right now I'm thinking of a water/ugly theme.

jadrax wrote:I really fail to see why it 'doesn't fit at all'. Up until this document they where using the Tzeentch's Curse tables, the fluff supports that suffer from the Tzeenech's Curse tables, the Elves who taught them this magic use the Tzeenech's Curse tables and even the Ice Witch's, who I most closely based the magic on, actually use the Tzeenech's Curse tables in all but one circumstance anyway.

We have seen no examples of true wood elf magic yet. As for Ice Witches... read again. They use the glacial surge tables when is Kislev, which is where you will most often find them. You will most often find Damsel's in Brettonia. And chances are if you have on in the party you probably will be using them int he area they're from.

The Old Widow is said to be a local god of the land, the Spirit of Kislev, The Lady of the Lake is worshiped as the Spirit of Brettonnia. The Ice Magic is said to be filtered by the Old Widow while in Kislev making it safe, with the damsels being psudeo-religious wizard/priests like witches you can easily assume that the lady has the same effect.

PsyckoSama wrote:Thier magic does not subscribe to any color lore and Fay magic tends to make heavy use of the spirits of Athel Loren to do the job rather than pure high magic.

Not really sure of the relevance of this of this sentence, or what point you are trying to make? Could you point me to where this is stated and explain how its relevant?

PsyckoSama wrote:
Also, Damsel's are as much priests of the Lady as they are wizards.

Arguable, Knights of the Grail goes to great lengths to point out that Grail Knights are tasked with all the responsibility of the Priesthood, Grail Damsels do not really have an equivalent role in most cults. Of course the killer question is do they believe in the religion of the Lady of the Lake, which is a question both myself and the current rules have avoided answering.

PsyckoSama wrote:
Frankly, I cannot find a more clear cut example of a witch lore than Damsel magic.

That is why I chose to write a document making it a Witch Lore.

PsyckoSama wrote:
You should because this is incomplete without it.

That is not really an answer to the real question, which is 'why do you feel that Witch Lores need an alternate Tzeentch's Curse chart' and if the answer is because 'the others have them' then why do you feel that sticking to a tradition (if you can call it that from two examples in one book,) of pure mechanics makes sense when there is nothing to support it in the actual game background?

PsyckoSama wrote:As for what is appropriate, maybe we should try discourse rather than you just dismissing the idea out of hand. Give me some time and I'll try and come up with some ideas...

Right now I'm thinking of a water/ugly theme.

I have been discussing it with you, (as no one else seems to regard it as an issue,) since Dec 2007. You still have not come up with anything supported by the game background.

PsyckoSama wrote:We have seen no examples of true wood elf magic yet.

Again, relevancy? We have seen no examples of True High Elf magic yet and we still have the derived Collage System, you seem to be placing a far greater link on Wood Elf magic and magic Made by wood elves for humans than the lore suggests.

PsyckoSama wrote:
As for Ice Witches... read again. They use the glacial surge tables when is Kislev, which is where you will most often find them. You will most often find Damsel's in Brettonia. And chances are if you have on in the party you probably will be using them int he area they're from.

As I said, ine one circumstance. As for that circumstance being prevalent, I would have thought logically the opposite is true, most games will never go to Kislev or ever go to the Bretonnia. While most of these witches will be in there own countries they will never be encountered, most of them will therefore be encountered outside of their own lands.

PsyckoSama wrote:
The Old Widow is said to be a local god of the land, the Spirit of Kislev, The Lady of the Lake is worshiped as the Spirit of Brettonnia.

I think you are pushing a connection here somewhat. The Old Widow is not regarded as a God and the Lady of the Lake is not regarded as the 'spirit of Bretonnia'.

PsyckoSama wrote:The Ice Magic is said to be filtered by the Old Widow while in Kislev making it safe, with the damsels being psudeo-religious wizard/priests like witches you can easily assume that the lady has the same effect.

The Ice Witches do not pray to cast there spells or cast spells from the Ancient Widow, they filter the winds of magic through the Cold Magic that saturates Kislev. My version of Grail Damsels cast spells that filter the winds of magic through the True Lake that saturates Bretonnia. The Ancient Widow and Lady of the Lake never come into the process.

jadrax wrote:Not really sure of the relevance of this of this sentence, or what point you are trying to make? Could you point me to where this is stated and explain how its relevant?

Wood Elf Army book 6e, Page 21. It also states that Female Wood Elf mages are more generally powerful as a rule.

Now, the wood elves would teach magic as they understand and use it to the Damsels, and the female connection might explain why only females are sent into the world trained by the fay. There might be a very real reason for it. Males mightly simply lack the power to contain those forces.

jadrax wrote:Arguable, Knights of the Grail goes to great lengths to point out that Grail Knights are tasked with all the responsibility of the Priesthood, Grail Damsels do not really have an equivalent role in most cults. Of course the killer question is do they believe in the religion of the Lady of the Lake, which is a question both myself and the current rules have avoided answering.

I'd see them as filling a kind of prophetic/advisitory roll... not unsimular to the Augers of Morr, but they're taken very seriously. While a Grail Knight might be the priestly figure to the common masses, the Damsel would be the priestly figure to the nobility, especially the higher nobility.

As for do they believe, if I was going to use one in play I'd say yes, which you seem to have hinted at using yourself in one of your example characters. I'd just have their memories of their youth be transatory and hard to pin down. They remember that they were amongst the fay, being taught to serve the will of the lady, but they can pin down no true details of their childhoods between when they were taken (if they were old enough to remember) and when they emerged from the forrest. Its like some semi-amnesiatic haze to them

jadrax wrote:That is why I chose to write a document making it a Witch Lore.

Point.

jadrax wrote:That is not really an answer to the real question, which is 'why do you feel that Witch Lores need an alternate Tzeentch's Curse chart' and if the answer is because 'the others have them' then why do you feel that sticking to a tradition (if you can call it that from two examples in one book,) of pure mechanics makes sense when there is nothing to support it in the actual game background?

Its because I feel it would be useful.

jadrax wrote:I have been discussing it with you, (as no one else seems to regard it as an issue,) since Dec 2007. You still have not come up with anything supported by the game background.

We kinda trailed off on that discussion.

jadrax wrote:Again, relevancy? We have seen no examples of True High Elf magic yet and we still have the derived Collage System, you seem to be placing a far greater link on Wood Elf magic and magic Made by wood elves for humans than the lore suggests.

Look at it this way. Color Lore is a version of High Magic simplified so that humans can learn it. Damsel Magic is a simplified version of Wood Elf magic designed so humans can learn it. Wood Elf magic would probably be a Witch Lore too because it shares a simular structure.

jadrax wrote:As I said, ine one circumstance. As for that circumstance being prevalent, I would have thought logically the opposite is true, most games will never go to Kislev or ever go to the Bretonnia. While most of these witches will be in there own countries they will never be encountered, most of them will therefore be encountered outside of their own lands.

That depends entirely on play style and the game in question. If your playing in Bretonnia a "Tides of the True Lake" table should be on hand.

jadrax wrote:I think you are pushing a connection here somewhat. The Old Widow is not regarded as a God and the Lady of the Lake is not regarded as the 'spirit of Bretonnia'.

I think the line between the spirts and gods in Kislev should natually be a bit lax as they consider the spirits to be "little gods". Really, I'd say if you asked a Kislevian if the Widow was a god, they'd probably say yes.

As for the lady... "In the minds of many Knights, the Lady is Bretronnia, in a mystical sense" - KotG 36.

jadrax wrote:The Ice Witches do not pray to cast there spells or cast spells from the Ancient Widow, they filter the winds of magic through the Cold Magic that saturates Kislev. My version of Grail Damsels cast spells that filter the winds of magic through the True Lake that saturates Bretonnia. The Ancient Widow and Lady of the Lake never come into the process.

According to RotIQ the ability to use cold magic was taught by the Widow, just as it could be argued that the ability to tap the power of the True Lake is taught by the Fey (Wood Elves) servants of the Lady (Queen Ariel, Avatar of Isha).

Give me a bit and I'll type up on that might fit.

The Tides of the True Lake

Roll	Result
01-15	Rapture: The True Lake gives you a glimpse of 
		paradise, leaving you stunned for one round.
16-30	Misty: The power flows like mist through your
		fingers, making your spell harder to cast. Add a half
 		action to your spell's casting time. You must take 
		this time even if you failed to cast the spell.
31-45	Awash: The power of the True Lake washes over you.
		Literally. You become completely soaked, as do all 
		items on your person.
46-60	Drowned: The uncontrolled magic fills your lungs 
		with pure water. You suffer the effects of the spell 
		Drowned Man's Face (ToS pp223) for d10 rounds. Your 
		spell fails.
61-80	Geyser: The power of the True Lake gushes 
		forth, causing a geyser of pure water to burst from the 
		ground. Everyone within 12 yards (including you) suffers 
		the effects of Water Blast (WFRP pp163) for d10 rounds.
81-90	Naiads: A number of Naiads (WComp pp123) 
		equal to your Mag characteristic are drawn to you by the 
		uncontrolled Lake magic. The Water Spirits appear 6 yards 
		from you. Confused and angry about being torn from their 
		home, they attacks you and your companions for d10 rounds, 
		after which they regain their bearings and leave.
91-99	Touch of Corruption: The waters you call upon 
		are slightly tainted by the Aethyr. Roll a Minor Chaos 
		Manifestation (WFRP pp143, or RoS pp250)
00		Flood of Darkness: The True Lake does not flow 
		to your aid, but the Sea of Chaos does. Roll a Major 
		Chaos Manifestation (WFRP pp143, or RoS pp251)

Hows this?

jadrax wrote:Certainly there magic is not 'filtered through Athel Loren and the "Lady of the Lake"' in my document and I cannot find any evidence that supports that it is in any WFRP document. Indeed the Lake Water thing that I have done here is basically taking about two sentences and massively expanding them.

The Wood Elf sourcebook states a) that elves in general are able to manipulate the winds of magic with a grace, ease and flair unmatched by any of the younger races and then goes on to say that Wood Elves are b) able to manipulate the energies of Athel Loren.

My interpretation would be that Wood Elves can draw magic energy from either source, or indeed both. But the latter would only be possible when within the forest. In other words some spells only work in the right locations.

PsyckoSama wrote:THey should have a specialist table.

I don't use the curse table during spell casting, but I think the most I would do for Elves and Wood Elves in particular is change the affects on the table by adding another column. Elves in my game basically don't beleive in Tzeentch so his curses don't really fit in with their culture, and I'd subsistute a penalty system mo