[Fireborn] Awakened Humans?

===Runes===
Runes are mystical devices which the Enlightened utilize to help shape their Karma into desired forms.
___In the Mythic Age, Runes were immensely rare items; only a handful of Rank 1 and 2 Runes were created in the entire Mythic Age, owing to the low number of Enlightened in that era.
___In the Strange Times, however, Enlightened have a network to help them, making Runes much, much more plentiful then they were. Shortly after the establishment of Enlightened Society, Runes and books on creating them began to circulate through Enlightened Society. No one has come forth as the progenitor of Rune-creation, and there're various beliefs floating around as to why no one wants to take credit.
___Runes work by acting like magical circuits, shaping Karma that goes into them. Each Rune has a magical pattern which allows it to shape the Karma such, so that Karma which is put into it flows out, shaped into the correct pattern for an effect. Each effect is a different pattern, and while patterns can be combined, it is impossible to not activate a Rune wholesale; thus, if the pattern is an increase to knowledge of melee combat and the users' natural ability, then both must be activated at once.
___Runes are, compared to many other mystical items, surprisingly plentiful; this's a result of Runes being artificially made, and not requiring any permanent expenditure on the part of the creator. Theoretically, given enough Karma, an Enlightened Human with the correct skills could create an infinite number of Runes without ill effect. The only limits are time and the available Karma.
___The reason that Runes are so easy to create is because they aren't real magical items; whereas Karmic and Enchanted Items are self-contained, power onto themselves, Runes are powerless without an Enlightened Human or similar source of Karma to power them. This's because, as mentioned above, Runes are passive circuits; the Karma that powers the effect is the same Karma that activates the item, merely in a different form.
___Runes come in two major types; Enchanted and Mystical. Enchanted are, by far, the most common, but both are in abundance enough that it isn't hard to find what you want, given enough effort.
___Enchanted Runes are items which, when Karma is channeled through them, enhances a mundane trait of some sort upon the person using it. This's often in the form of increased inherent abilities and skills, but it can also include enhancing clothing until it offers protection like armor, or even enhancing the item itself to provide some sort of benefit. Examples of Enchanted Runes are a pen that gives the user knowledge of a culture, a sword which becomes nearly indestructible and enhances the users' swordsmen skills, or a duster that can make itself like armor to protect its' owner.
___Mystic Runes, on the other hand, provide blatantly magical effects. While an Enchanted Rune Coat might act like armor, a Mystic Rune ring would create a force field around the user. They do this by emulating spells that can be cast through sorcery, which they do by replicating the patterns of effects. Thus, Mystic Runes are often used by Enlightened Humans who have a spell they'd like to be able to cast at a moments' notice, or who are willing to trade Karma for safety in casting. In addition, Mystic Runes can have addition Karma channeled through them to take advantage of the casting options available for each spell, assuming that the user knows it. Examples of Mystic Runes are a shielding bracelet, a pair of glasses that can counter spells, or a glove that can disintegrate anything it touches.
___The reason for the popularity of Enchanted Runes over Mystic Runes is due to two factors. First, Enchanted Runes are easier to create. Whereas someone forging an Enchanted Rune only needs to know the correct pattern for, say, the ability to shoot a bow, someone forging a Mystic Rune needs to know the actual spell and all of its' casting options. The second reason is because Enchanted Runes work, full-force, for anyone wanting to use them, whereas Mystic Runes require the user to know the casting option he wishes to utilize before he can use the spell beyond its' preset parameters.
___However, this hasn't stopped both types from becoming staples of Enlightened Society commerce and trade, them being the only real physical item which is regularly traded as both a currency and an item of desire.

==Making Runes==
Making Runes is, as a process, surprisingly simple. The biggest issues are, in fact, learning how to, and gaining enough Karma to actually do it.
___Do note, also, that the creation of a Rune is a highly intricate act. While, potentially, future developments will allow Enlightened Humans to utilize their borrowed Karma pools from Karma Areas, currently they're limited to their Personal Pool. In addition, creating a Rune is, soul-wise, a heavy investment. All Karma spent in this process must be regained in the slow, hard manner.
___The first step in making a Rune is to get the physical item that will be the Rune. Many of the cheap Runes forgo this, using whatever is available, but most of the major Runemakers put considerable clout in getting the right vessel. Not only for quality purposes, but in the belief that putting crap into the process will give you exactly that at the end; crap. Thus, while good Runes might not be ornate, they'll often be decent quality, at the bare minimum.
___Then, the Runecrafter must establish a Circle of Power with the item in the middle of it. A Circle of power consists of two things; an outer circle, which is the barrier that holds Karma within, and the inner circle, which is what shapes the Karma within and sets the effects of the Rune. All Rune effects have a design, which may either be incorporated with other effects for an Enchanted Rune, or must be the singular design, in the case of Mystic Runes.
___Mystic Rune designs are always the same; regardless of what item is being used, the same design will be used if each item is being imbued with the same spell. This's because all spells automatically incorporate all potential options, and each Mystic Rune can only have one spell held within it. However, the nature of Mystic Runes makes it necessary for the Runecrafter to not only know the design, but the spell and its' casting options as well.
___Enchanted Rune designs, on the other hand, are much more flexible. Each potential effect of an Enchanted Rune has a design, and the design is increasingly bolded as the potency of the effect is increased. In addition, designs may be combined, to create Enchanted Runes which have multiple effects in them. This all comes at the cost of additional Karma required to create it, however.
___If there're errors in either circle, then the Circle of Power simply doesn't activate. Assuming he's done everything right, spending a single point of Karma establishes the Circle of Power.
___After the Runecrafter establishes the Circle of Power, he must fill it with enough Karma to properly craft the effect. The cost in Karma is equal to ten times the rank of the Rune being crafted. Obviously, few Runecrafters have this much Karma on hand, so the majority cannot, in fact, create the Rune right away. The most common method is to establish the Circle and go about a slow process of accumulating the Karma required. The Circle consumes a single point of Karma a day to maintain itself, so as long as the Runecrafter supplies it with Karma, the Circle can stay up indefinitely. In addition, if created in a Karma Zone, Circles of Power gain a number of "free" motes already in them equal to the Rank of the area. If created in a Karma Zone, then the Runecrafter doesn't need to spend a mote to close the circle, merely will it closed.
___The Circle may have Karma added by anyone. All it takes is for someone to put their hand on the outer circle and will Karma into it. Thus, it's possible for a Runecrafter to charge someone in Karma. In fact, many Runecrafters do exactly this, charging people, on top of the usual fee, a stipend of Karma to be paid over time. This's typically at least 20% of the total cost of the Rune they created, possibly including the Karma to maintain the Circle.
___Circles, however, are one-way Karma storage. While anyone can put Karma in, it is impossible to withdraw it. This's due to the fact that Karma put into the circle is rendered down into a finer form, suitable for the creation of Runes.
___Once the necessary amount of Karma has been accumulated into the Circle, then the Runecrafter must, himself, merely spend an additional number of motes equal to the Rank of the Rune to activate the Circle. At this point, the crafting process truly begins, with the ambient Karma in the Circle of Power flowing along the designs of the inner circle. This's an automated process, taking an hour per rank of the Rune.
___At the end of the process, the Rune is, for all intents and purposes, done. Some Runecrafters like to run their Runes through some tests before giving them to the buyer, but flaws which make it through the entire process are so stupidly rare as to be nearly unheard of. The tests are, more often then not, merely a courtesy and a marketing point, as a way of saying that they do something some other Runecrafters don't.
___The biggest Runecrafters have entire little factories setup to Rune creation. More often then not, these're headed by a single Runecrafter who sets up each Circle of Power, with multiple people per Rune "Slot" powering the Circles. Almost all of these operations have bedrooms setup in a Karma Zone, allowing the workers to sleep and gain Karma to pour into the Circle. Due to the commitment required, this's the only real way to keep a steady stream of Karma flowing into the Circles. Operations without a Karma Zone are often part-time affairs, where the people powering the Circles are compensated in another method for contributing some Karma to a circle every so often.

=Runecrafting and Balance=
Many GMs might take issue allowing players to have access to potentially unlimited numbers of Runes, given enough Karma. This's understandable, since, theoretically, a player might need to pay for a Rank 1 Edge for each Rank 1 Rune he wants, whereas the player who buys Runecrafting could create a limitless number of Runes for himself.
___How do you balance allowing players Runecrafting, while still keeping it balanced?
___First, keep in mind that Runecrafting is Karma intensive. Even with a Karma 5 Area to sleep in, assuming the character can hold at least 5 points in their Personal Pool, it takes at least a day to fill the Circle of Power for a Rank 1 Rune. Rank 5 would require 10 days. And if the character wants others who provide Karma as well, he'd need to purchase them with an Edge.
___Second, no Rune is permanently on; regardless of what is made, it must still be activated. Which is impossible in certain circumstances.
___Third, nothing keeps you, the GM, from taking them away. Yes, the character might have invested Karma into it. So what? Karma is, even when spent in such a way that it takes a while to get back, a renewable resource, and one which Enlightened Humans have in spades for everything but Runecrafting. On the other hand, a player who's spent experience on a Rune has truly invested something into it.
___In short, unless the player buys Plot Immunity for a favorite Rune, in the form of an Edge, it's free reign on the GMs' part. If they lose or break it somehow, tough shit. This keeps the player from overloading themselves or others with Runes, while still allowing them to use it for a service or story-specific skill("Quick, we need to craft a Rune with this design so we can return Nyarlathotep to his eternal slumber!").

Ranked Edge
Runecrafting
Requirements: Knowledge - Runes 2, Awakened Rank 1 or more. See below.
Runecrafting is an involved process, requiring more then just the knowledge of circles. This Edge represents the Runecrafters' ability to actually create Runes and empower them.
Mechanics:
This Edge is limited to creating Runes of its' Rank or lower. In order to purchase this Edge, the Enlightened Human must have at least Awakened Rank 1. Increasing beyond that requires the Enlightened Human to have an Awakened Rank equal to the new Rank he wants in the Edge. Thus, at AR2, they may buy up to Rank 2, at AR3, up to 3, and so on.

Another Enlightened Human Edge I figured I'd throw out there. This one is strictly by-the-books optional, even above and beyond the Golden Ruling available to all rules.

Rank 3 Independent Edge
Past Lives
Requirements: Awakened Rank 0, GM Permission
All Enlightened Humans have lived before, cycling through lives again and again. Some Enlightened Humans are able to peer into these past existences, possibly learning more about a present predicament.
Mechanics:
This Edge gives the Enlightened Human a view into prior lives. An exceptional few might even have recall of an existence in the Mythic Age, but most lives will be of the post-Mythic Age era.
Where and when the flashback takes place is up to the GM, but is almost always involved to the current situation somehow. Whether it's a direct connection, such as a supernatural beast existing now and then, or something more fluid, such as being hunted and flashing back to a life that involved being hunted by a mundane beast. The only constant is that all flashbacks give some insight into the current situation; either knowledge on an item is gained, an Enlightened Human realizes how a place became tainted, or something in a similar vein. This Edge is purposely fluid, to allow a variety of ways to play it out.
The GM is the final arbiter of where you flashback to, and if you're even allowed to take this Edge. This Edge could also be given for free to all of the characters, and coupled with alternate characters, be used in a similar function as Scions having flashbacks.

Also, something I forgot to put into the last post...

I've started thinking on Bad Enlightened Humans. As in, innately bad somehow, not just douchebags. I've decided, with as newish of a widespread phenomenon as Enlightened Humans are, innately bad ones might not yet be kicking around. After all, all other Innately Bad versions of things are of Supernatural creatures, which are more susceptible to Taint and such, and Enlightened Humans, while more magical then a normal human, don't seem like the kind to be affected by Taint and such the same way as, say, Fae.

So I've decided, instead of writing out things, I'd add possibilities. Instead of saying "These're the baddies kicking around", I'd make all of the Enlightened Humans begin at a Day Zero, of sorts, and then go "Given some time, here're possibilities for perversions of Enlightenment, and rules for them". It's essentially like the redemption of Abyssals in Exalted; "It's possible, but at the start of any game, no one's done it yet."

It'd also let GMs customize their own game, introducing as many or few as they want, and still having viable stories. If a Karma 5 Zone is completely drained, it could be a number of things, from just a douchebag Enlightened, to one of the Tainted that did some heavy mojo there, a member of The Bound whose patron needed Karma, or even a member of The Empty who just wants to begin making a nice Voided Area. The players have no clue, since the GM might decide beforehand that there're no inherently bad baddies, or that there're only one of the above, or all three who each did their part.

In short, it's keeping with the mysterious supernatural theme, and preventing players from, metaphorically, reading the Monster Manual.

So, here're some names and short descriptions. Think of it as a breather from my usual verbosity. :P

The Tainted: Obvious enough, I hope. Enlightened Humans which take the other extreme; instead of magic without Taint, it's magic with bucket loads. Seems to me like they'd be the most likely and numerous of the baddies to crop up.

The Bound: Enlightened Humans who've given themselves over to a Being that uses them as a hollowed-out shell of sorts. They essentially become marionettes for Beings, without individuality, hence the name. They aren't too good at hiding it, though; the Beings typically aren't used to being human, so things like basic hygiene are lost on them.

The Damned: Enlightened Humans who've aligned themselves with one or more Beings. They gain some Supernatural Attributes and Tainted aspects, but the biggest danger is the stealth factor; they're still fully autonomous and in control, except with a minor compulsion to serve their Patron, allowing them to blend into Enlightened Society. I imagine it'd give a very paranoid feeling, not knowing who is aligned with forces beyond them and who isn't.

The Mad: The result of Enlightened Humans attempting to artificially elevate a soul, and end up breaking it. Whoopsy~Doodle. The Good News is that The Mad gain a horridly intuitive understanding of Magic, giving them one or two free spells that they can fire off for a point of Karma, and a couple of Supernatural Aspect points representing how they augment themselves with their magic. The Bad News is that they're Bumfuck Cuh~razy and wanna fuck up anything that looks, smells, or resonates even remotely like their creator(s). Hey, wait, Enlightened Humans made them...wuh~oh.

The Empty: Crossover with the Phoenixes' cosmology, The Empty are Enlightened Humans who've sold themselves to the Void, giving them certain protection against Karma and Taint, but also making them literal shells of people with a complete lack of soul and running solely on Void Stuff to do everything they can to snuff out all of existence and the Well of Souls which powers it. Oh, and they have the same abilities as Enlightened Humans, except with Void-related changes, similar to the Djinn of Phoenix cosmology.

Igtenio wrote:I don't see how those're issues, really. I can't see it being any different then any other story which uses past lives as a narrative tool.

I don't really see a need for a past incarnation to have stats or such(Unless you plan to focus extensively on them), since I can't see many of them really needing it.

Then you're not really talking about a Fireborn style Flashback, which is really a parallel game run in a different time in which events take place with a bearing on the central modern storyline.

For a Fireborn Flashback (i.e. one run as the game intends) you generally do need stats, you ideally need some sort of powers and you need some sort of supernatural element. If you just want to have a brief narrative sequence set in a different period then go for it, but that's not how Flashbacks work in Fireborn. it's a flashback rather than a Flashback, hence the rules don't cover them.

Maybe it's just my fast-and-loose method of GMing showing, but I'd have them talk through it. Which is why I think it'd be in the GMG; the Players' Handbook doesn't need any rules to play a throw-away life fast and loose.

Fast-and-loose is great, I prefer it myself, but I wouldn't expect the GMG to cover it. Once you take it outside the mechanical context of a vivid memoriy of past life experience in a similar situation shared by the brood, a flashback is just a standard narrative tool.

I think the biggest benefit to a flashback to a human lifetime is, really, to see the difference after Karma left. There're some stories you just can't tell flashing back as a dragon.

Absolutely there are, but they're not the stories that Fireborn is set up to use the Flashback system, with dual character sheets, to tell.

I could just see it being a noteworthy enough tool to deserve at least a sidebox or two on it.

A sidebar or two would make sense, if that's all you were looking for then I'd agree it wouldn't hurt to include it as an advanced option.

Besides, I think it'd be interesting for a player to get a flashback, expect to kick some ass as a dragon, and come to as a peasant wiping himself with poison ivy in Dark Ages England. :P Muwha...

I think it'd be interesting for the GM, I doubt many players would feel other than short changed by a deal like that. :wink:

Trevelyan wrote:
Then you're not really talking about a Fireborn style Flashback, which is really a parallel game run in a different time in which events take place with a bearing on the central modern storyline.

For a Fireborn Flashback (i.e. one run as the game intends) you generally do need stats, you ideally need some sort of powers and you need some sort of supernatural element. If you just want to have a brief narrative sequence set in a different period then go for it, but that's not how Flashbacks work in Fireborn. it's a flashback rather than a Flashback, hence the rules don't cover them.

Don't capitalize at me. :P And if you want to get all technical with flashbacks being different from Flashbacks, I didn't once mention Flashbacks. The only time flashbacks was capitalized, if at all, was when it was grammatically accurate.

In addition, the person who wrote the very first section of The Fire Within, dealing with the flashback to the Peace Talks, seemed to heavily disagree with your criteria. It's been a long while since I've read The Fire Within, but I recall not a single die roll, and heavy emphasis on freeform RPing. Words like, when talking about the hour beforehand and the one task they can accomplish, "While they can only accomplish a single task each, they will succeed quite thoroughly at it" and, in regards to duels, it's up to the GM, "unless a PC is involved, then he should probably best his opponent".

Not a single die roll that I can recall. Not one. Hell, not even a need for skills, aspects, et cetera. Nor even a character, beyond "Your Modern Characters' Mythic Dragon self". Just "You're a fucking dragon, you rock".

Now, while this is a beginner scenario, it illustrates the point I'm trying to make; a "Flashback" in Fireborn is not about mechanics. A "Fireborn Flashback" is a very simple thing; it's the Modern Character reconnecting, more and more, with his draconic heritage. That's it. While stats can obviously help with that, since I certainly wouldn't want every flashback to be "Freeform RP Time", they're painfully optional if you don't want to use them.

(As a sidenote, I wouldn't disregard the draconic sheet altogether; after all, it's what the Scion is becoming, and Powers the Dragon has are cheaper)

Mind you, that isn't an argument for abolishing the Mythic Age aspect of Fireborn. I like Fireborn as written. I wouldn't want to ditch the flashbacks and mechanics of them if I ran a game, and I'd be irked if I was playing in a game that did.

I'm also not trying to make an argument that flashbacks into human lives is as much of a requirement as Mythic Age flashbacks. The fact of the matter is that, in Fireborn, the time between the end of the Mythic Age and the start of the Strange Times was painfully boring from a magical perspective. Sure, some shit was happening, but the chances of a character being involved in even one of those events is so painfully low as to be laughable. The average life was ho~hum, essentially, and only good for flashback fodder if you really, really, really want to play up the tendency of a character to, for instance, let down his friends.

"Oh no, you've let down Jimmy in the Modern Age by not paying his bail, time to flashback to you being Lord Habbersmack in Victorian England and refusing to pay the gambling debts of your friend, Lady Fauntlessoys', son."

That might interest some people. Personally, unless the son owes his gambling debt to some sort of chthonic creature that's going to eat his face if he doesn't pay it, no thanks. :P

But disregarding them as "Not a Fireborn Flashback" is, frankly, fairly stupid. Fireborn is very much a game of the past and present colliding, of things that were coming back to the place that is. And while the vast majority of magical things happening now are going to have origins in the Mythic Age, it being the prime location for flashbacks doesn't give it some higher status. Especially among the Fireborn, who already have glimpses of a past life. They know, for a fact, that they've lived countless human lives. And yet not a single one, especially among the PCs, had anything worthwhile? All of them were the same humdrum existence? Not a single one had anything that could even remotely be of interest to a Scion?

That's why I would've just wanted a sidebar of some kind. I don't think it requires much more for something which is, at most, sporadic. The central subject of Flashbacks, even in a game which was liberal with flashbacks to human lives, is gonna be being a Dragon. And the simple reason for that is because not only do dragons live longer then humans and lived in more magically relevent times, but they're the original form of a Scion. A Scion isn't growing into a peasant in the Dark Ages; he's growing into a dragon.

But, frankly, I see no difference between a Scion remembering his draconic existence(Except possibly an increased awareness and/or connection to it), and a Scion remembering a scene from a human existence. They're open to receiving glimpses from past lives, and while, as I said before, Dragons are infinitely more likely for a number of factors, there'd surely be a reason to visit a past human life.

They're both glimpses of a life that the Scion led prior to his present one, and almost all flashbacks involve the present somehow. Outside of that, I'm grasping here to understand the reasoning, or even desire, for a differential between a Flashback and a flashback.

And yes, the flashback, in the traditional sense or the Fireborn sense of a glimpse into a past life, is a narrative tool. But there're certain games in which some tools are more apt then others. A hardcore noir detective drama, for instance, couldn't incorporate the main character having a sudden glimpse into a past life without the atmosphere being killed a little.

Fireborn is ideal for it, however. There's precedent, there's reason, there's even a system for the most likely targets of the flashback. But I think saying that this kind of flashback is being in-game, but this kind being just a generic narrative tool, is merely splitting hairs over it.

I'm not trying to change the way anyone plays. And, without a doubt, there're games in which human flashbacks just wouldn't fit, especially if there was some in-game reason for it. I just wish FFG would've taken the entire flashback aspect to its' natural conclusion, and at least gave lip service to playing human lives. Which is all you really can do, to be honest; if you had to generate a whole new character for each human flashback, even one would be a pain in the ass.

Trevelyan wrote:
I think it'd be interesting for the GM, I doubt many players would feel other than short changed by a deal like that. :wink:

Muwha, my plan to overthrow the yoke of GM Tyranny through player dissatisfaction is nearing completion! Sic Semper tyrannis! :P

As a sidenote, how much shit do you think I could get myself into by making a hybrid World of Darkness/Dynamic D6 system? :P Now I just need to throw some Mind Flayers in there to get Wizards of the Coast on my ass, too... :P

Igtenio wrote:

Trevelyan wrote:
Then you're not really talking about a Fireborn style Flashback, which is really a parallel game run in a different time in which events take place with a bearing on the central modern storyline.

For a Fireborn Flashback (i.e. one run as the game intends) you generally do need stats, you ideally need some sort of powers and you need some sort of supernatural element. If you just want to have a brief narrative sequence set in a different period then go for it, but that's not how Flashbacks work in Fireborn. it's a flashback rather than a Flashback, hence the rules don't cover them.

In addition, the person who wrote the very first section of The Fire Within, dealing with the flashback to the Peace Talks, seemed to heavily disagree with your criteria. It's been a long while since I've read The Fire Within, but I recall not a single die roll, and heavy emphasis on freeform RPing.

The emphasis above is mine. While the opening F/flashback doesn't involve dice rolls, every other F'flashback in that adventure does. And like you said, the first example sets the scene and introduces players to the game and setting, so some differences are to be expected.

I'm also not trying to make an argument that flashbacks into human lives is as much of a requirement as Mythic Age flashbacks. The fact of the matter is that, in Fireborn, the time between the end of the Mythic Age and the start of the Strange Times was painfully boring from a magical perspective. Sure, some shit was happening, but the chances of a character being involved in even one of those events is so painfully low as to be laughable.

*ding dind ding* We have a winner!

But disregarding them as "Not a Fireborn Flashback" is, frankly, fairly stupid. Fireborn is very much a game of the past and present colliding, of things that were coming back to the place that is.

*buzz* Unfortunately our studio audience says Fireborn is a game where PCs come to realise that are the modern reincarnation of dragons in a world where magic is returning en mass for the first time since the mythic age. The fact that a given PC may have been Lord Whozznit in the 18th centuary is of no direct relevence unless Lord Whozznit had some form of mystical encounter.

Fireborn pays no regard to the juxtaposition of ancient and modern outside of that narrow arena. while a given GM could decide to expand on the past vs. present idea, that is his or her individual choice and not one directly intended or supported by the game.

And while the vast majority of magical things happening now are going to have origins in the Mythic Age, it being the prime location for flashbacks doesn't give it some higher status.

:?

That's why I would've just wanted a sidebar of some kind. I don't think it requires much more for something which is, at most, sporadic.

I already a greed that a brief sidebar would be useful, but that the notion really doesn't merit more space than that, if it merits any at all. I can see why any such sidebar would be an obvious target for an editor trying to reduce wordcount, though.

But, frankly, I see no difference between a Scion remembering his draconic existence(Except possibly an increased awareness and/or connection to it), and a Scion remembering a scene from a human existence. They're open to receiving glimpses from past lives, and while, as I said before, Dragons are infinitely more likely for a number of factors, there'd surely be a reason to visit a past human life.

Strictly speaknig, as their draconic powers emerge, Scions are open to memories of their past draconic lives. Nothing in the basic explanation for F/flashbacks suggests that human life F/flashbacks are even possible, so including them is a GM call in the first place.

As a sidenote, how much shit do you think I could get myself into by making a hybrid World of Darkness/Dynamic D6 system? :P Now I just need to throw some Mind Flayers in there to get Wizards of the Coast on my ass, too... :P

Publish and be damned :wink:

To be honest, I doubt too many people would even notice it if you posted it here. This forum isn't exactly the busiest place on the internet. :(

Trevelyan wrote:
The emphasis above is mine. While the opening F/flashback doesn't involve dice rolls, every other F'flashback in that adventure does. And like you said, the first example sets the scene and introduces players to the game and setting, so some differences are to be expected.

The point I was attempting to make, though, which I hope was obvious, is that not all flashbacks need be of the same mold, rules-wise. While that first one was an aberration for multiple reasons, it also showed that flashbacks can be played with the characters as, frankly, anyone. While it assumed the characters were their draconic selves, those dragons weren't defined until later.

Assuming, of course, that when the players start they haven't designed their dragons. Which, personally, I would do for newbies. Scion at first, Dragon later. :P

But the actual flashback, outside of the continuity that got established in the second one, was fairly character-generic. Except for the fact that the characters were powerful enough to accomplish anything without rolling, they could've been dragons, humans, mages, et cetera. The only real difference them being dragons made is that if that Titan fellow found out about it, he'd attack them, which could so easily be edited out it isn't even funny.

Trevelyan wrote:
*ding dind ding* We have a winner!

Which the PCs are. Winners. :P If anything fucked up and weird was gonna happen, it'd inevitably be to them.

And, without a doubt, there're non-magical events which could influence the present day. Say, for instance, that as Peasants in Dark Ages England, one of their fellow peasants had found a magical ritual that involved a number of human sacrifices. Back then, it didn't work; no Karma, no effect. However, that same person has reincarnated into the Strange Times, and guess what? He's trying that shit out again, except this time there's that Karmic spark to make some bad shit happen if it goes down.

An otherwise non-magical event(Crazy person thinking they can work magic, murders, et cetera) without a single thing to make them think that it's noteworthy, until people begin popping up dead in the same manner.

And that isn't the only one. Yes, Fireborn's a game of fantasy; that doesn't mean that everything has to be thoroughly coated with Pixie dust, so to speak. Even the most seemingly "mundane" of past events might have some grain that a magical catastrophe, in the Strange Times, is being built around.

That's assuming it's even possible for a Scion to view them...see below.

Trevelyan wrote:
*buzz* Unfortunately our studio audience says Fireborn is a game where PCs come to realise that are the modern reincarnation of dragons in a world where magic is returning en mass for the first time since the mythic age. The fact that a given PC may have been Lord Whozznit in the 18th centuary is of no direct relevence unless Lord Whozznit had some form of mystical encounter.

I must disagree. Lord Whozznit has no direct relevance if he doesn't somehow make the story better.

On the other hand, if Lord Whozznit set up a human slave trade that exists to this day, the PC might be fairly pissed at him, especially if that human slave trade is now being used to give Fae humans to feed upon freely.

Mystical Encounter then doesn't rule out mystical causality now. That also doesn't mean that a PC needs to know all or even any of his past lives; it's certainly a decent storytelling element, but one which can't be overused for fear of the GM making all of the characters be the convenient modern incarnations of every problem they have now.

Which, now that I think about it, would be an awesome setting for a one-off game of some sort, similar to Paranoia, but involving yourself and wondering what other shit you did in your past life that's causing you pain now. But that's neither here nor there. :P

Trevelyan wrote:
Fireborn pays no regard to the juxtaposition of ancient and modern outside of that narrow arena. while a given GM could decide to expand on the past vs. present idea, that is his or her individual choice and not one directly intended or supported by the game.

And yet Fireborn is placed in a city whose entire history of human colonization, outside of features(The Thames doesn't count. :P), has been post-Mythic Age. A city which is, quite frankly, Schizophrenic in its' temporal identity. "Am I a Renaissance Festival, or a Futuristic Exhibit? Fuck, why not both?!".

In short, it's the city version of myself. :P

*Ahem*

While the theme of the city is matching(Present meeting Past), the city itself is still a conglomerate of more then just Mythic Era leftovers and Modern sensibilities.

If they really wanted some sort of meeting of Brand Spankin' New and Crazy-Old, there're, quite frankly, better cities which could be built upon things from the Mythic Age. If the theme isn't going to use Londons' history as, in a sense, a crossroads of all times, then the theme is, quite frankly, less tied to the city then it should be. In short, it just isn't important if the game is going to say "Alright, we've placed the game in one of the oldest, most historic cities in the world...but fuck all that shit, we're dealing with a fictional pre-history."

Seems wasteful, if all they're worried about is fictional past and near-future. Of course, maybe it isn't. Once again, see below. *Sigh* Even I'm getting tired of waiting. :P

Trevelyan wrote:

And while the vast majority of magical things happening now are going to have origins in the Mythic Age, it being the prime location for flashbacks doesn't give it some higher status.

:?

I'm confused, too.

...Fuck, you think I remember half of the shit I meant when I go back and read what I've written? :P Was probably an error in there of some sort. One of the insidious ones. I think the basic intended gist is "It's the origin, making it more likely for flashbacks to occur, but it being the Mythic Age alone doesn't make the flashbacks somehow better or in-game then the flashbacks to other potential time periods."

Trevelyan wrote:
I already a greed that a brief sidebar would be useful, but that the notion really doesn't merit more space than that, if it merits any at all. I can see why any such sidebar would be an obvious target for an editor trying to reduce wordcount, though.

Me too, sadly.

I wasn't reiterating it because I thought you didn't get it or whatnot. I did it because I wanted it to be damn clear that as open as I am to the idea of Scions visiting a past human life at some point, even I couldn't want more then a sidebar on it, since there isn't that much to include. All too often I see the sidebar as the loser option. As in "I think there should be an entire subsystem/chapter/book on it, but saying that would just make people disagree, so I'll say 'At least a sidebar'."

It irks me. :P

Trevelyan wrote:
Strictly speaknig, as their draconic powers emerge, Scions are open to memories of their past draconic lives. Nothing in the basic explanation for F/flashbacks suggests that human life F/flashbacks are even possible, so including them is a GM call in the first place.

I think there're two major ways to look at it, really. And FFG having chosen one way or another would've been nice. I'll give them nice names, after modes of Transportation. :P

The Car

Flashbacks are like living in Town A, and having a highway directly to Town B. It's easy riding to Town B, making it your most visited destination, but there're also dirt roads to other towns. These aren't visited as often, or as easily, but they aren't impossible to get to.

The Train

Flashbacks are like living in Town A, and having a train that runs to Town B. While you know there're other things between them, you're only ever gonna be able to go between Town A and Town B.

Hopefully, I don't need to explain how they apply. :P

Trevelyan wrote:
Publish and be damned :wink:

To be honest, I doubt too many people would even notice it if you posted it here. This forum isn't exactly the busiest place on the internet. :(

The better question is Do I want to be in the meat in a WhiteWolf/FFG Legal Sandwich?

That being a resounding No. :P

Despite the fact that I have some badass ideas on NWoD/DynamicD6 cross-pollination...argh. Whoever said that patents/trademarks/copyrights foster innovation is an asshole. :P

Igtenio wrote:The point I was attempting to make, though, which I hope was obvious, is that not all flashbacks need be of the same mold, rules-wise. While that first one was an aberration for multiple reasons, it also showed that flashbacks can be played with the characters as, frankly, anyone.

As you say, it's a corner case. Does it show that it's possible to play an RPG without rolling dice for a scene? Yes, but that's hardly news. Does it show that, generally speaking, Fireborn flashbacks are intended to utilise the flexibility of historical period that such an approach allows? I'd say it doesn't.

Assuming, of course, that when the players start they haven't designed their dragons. Which, personally, I would do for newbies. Scion at first, Dragon later. :P

I agree.

And, without a doubt, there're non-magical events which could influence the present day. Say, for instance, that as Peasants in Dark Ages England, one of their fellow peasants had found a magical ritual that involved a number of human sacrifices. Back then, it didn't work; no Karma, no effect. However, that same person has reincarnated into the Strange Times, and guess what? He's trying that shit out again, except this time there's that Karmic spark to make some bad shit happen if it goes down.

In Fireborn terms, the more relevent flashback (I can't be bothered with capitals any more) would be to a period in the mythic age when the ritual was in full use. If the ritual didn't work in the Dark Ages then there would be few to no clues available in that period as to how it takes effect and how best to stop it, which I would assume to be the key flashback information.

On the other hand, if Lord Whozznit set up a human slave trade that exists to this day, the PC might be fairly pissed at him, especially if that human slave trade is now being used to give Fae humans to feed upon freely.

In which case, would the relevent flashback not be to a time in the mythic age when the brood was investigating a similar arrangement between human slavers and fae?

Trevelyan wrote:
Fireborn pays no regard to the juxtaposition of ancient and modern outside of that narrow arena. while a given GM could decide to expand on the past vs. present idea, that is his or her individual choice and not one directly intended or supported by the game.

And yet Fireborn is placed in a city whose entire history of human colonization, outside of features(The Thames doesn't count. :P), has been post-Mythic Age.

"If you can suggest another target, a military target, then name the system." What actual modern city, ideally in the English speaking world (given FFG's core market), could legitimately have existed in the mythic age?

A city which is, quite frankly, Schizophrenic in its' temporal identity. "Am I a Renaissance Festival, or a Futuristic Exhibit? Fuck, why not both?!".

You could get a similar effect from most large European capitals. Rome, Paris, etc would all be equally viable, but the language barrier presents a few problems for FFG. The fact that these cities actually look to a RL historical past within the last few millenia is not an indication that Fireborn is looking directly at the juxtaposition of past and present within that time period. It's just that actual cities in the real world only go back so far.

If the theme isn't going to use Londons' history as, in a sense, a crossroads of all times, then the theme is, quite frankly, less tied to the city then it should be. In short, it just isn't important if the game is going to say "Alright, we've placed the game in one of the oldest, most historic cities in the world...but fuck all that shit, we're dealing with a fictional pre-history."

I disagree. London provides a sense of history which the game extends further to hint at the mythic age. Ancient buildings, hidden rivers, castles, crypts and the like support the atmosphere of the game, and the size of London allows for a variety of stories to take place. Add to that the common language and you see why London was chosen. As it happens, much of TFW takes place outside London.

I think there're two major ways to look at it, really. And FFG having chosen one way or another would've been nice. I'll give them nice names, after modes of Transportation. :P

I think Fireborn did chose the train, they just never openly noted and ignored the alternative. If the intent had been to cover a wide variety of time periods with flashbacks, or even to allow that possibility, then it would have been mentioned.

I'll get to the rest later, since yesterday was a clusterfuck and today isn't much better. So, while I'm trying to make sense, I apologize if I don't.

Trevelyan wrote:
I think Fireborn did chose the train, they just never openly noted and ignored the alternative. If the intent had been to cover a wide variety of time periods with flashbacks, or even to allow that possibility, then it would have been mentioned.

The thing, however, is that lack of mention. As it stands, there isn't anything saying they can experience flashbacks as humans, but neither is there anything saying they can't.

Going back to the prior example of the car and the train, if I talk about my friend who lives in Town A, and is always visiting Town B, then the only information you have is a starting point, a destination, and the knowledge that they have a means of transportation between them.

However, there's no way to prove they use the Train, merely the Car, via circumstantial evidence. If you say "Well, do they ever stop anywhere between?", and I say "No", then all that's being communicated is that they do not; not that they cannot.

In this sense, the only way to know for certain, if one of the questions doesn't give it away, is to come out and ask. At which point, you have an answer.

It's the same with Fireborn. All we get told is that Scions experience flashbacks to their draconic existence. But it's never said if it's possible or not for them to experience flashbacks to human existences. There're a number of reasons as to why I think they couldn't*, but without knowing if there is a reason of some sort as to why flashbacks into past lives are limited to the scaly, then it's impossible to say, one way or another, if it isn't a matter of circumstance or necessity that Scions only remember being dragons to such a degree that it's considered the norm.

* - Can only remember lives lived during periods of high Karma, can only remember lives they're most like, can only remember lives with a similar karmic resonance as themselves, can only remember other Karma-charged events that're similar to the current Karma-charged events...you get the idea.

Trevelyan wrote:
As you say, it's a corner case. Does it show that it's possible to play an RPG without rolling dice for a scene? Yes, but that's hardly news. Does it show that, generally speaking, Fireborn flashbacks are intended to utilise the flexibility of historical period that such an approach allows? I'd say it doesn't.

I'd say, personally, it's a special case. On its' own, frankly, there isn't much special about it; the vast majority of it is humans being humanly stupid, and could, quite honestly, be set in almost any scenario in which a town is trying to break off from a larger province, and the province sends an armed force to try and stop them. While it does, obviously, include supernatural elements, those're either earily convertable to mundane ones(Fae = Human Neighbors, for instance), or easily ignored(The Titan fellow on the towns' side, unless you want it to be a warrior looking for heads of worthy adversaries for when he goes off to take over his clan/house/et cetera).

The only reason it cannot be put into another time period is because the entire adventure hinges on the Mythic Age. I won't go into detail on it here, so I don't go spoiling it if anyone who hasn't read it reads this, but that flashback is pivotal to the time frame it's in, so there'd be no better place for it then right there.

The biggest problem, I think, would be taking care of whether they succeed or not. Which I might write something up small about, now that I think about it...

Anyway, yeah. If that Flashback had been a non-sequitor, and was merely a "You're not human and all worked together in the past" deal, it frankly could've been in any period. There wasn't anything so "Mythicy" about it that you couldn't just swap minor things out for mundane ones.

Trevelyan wrote:
In Fireborn terms, the more relevent flashback (I can't be bothered with capitals any more) would be to a period in the mythic age when the ritual was in full use. If the ritual didn't work in the Dark Ages then there would be few to no clues available in that period as to how it takes effect and how best to stop it, which I would assume to be the key flashback information.

Finally, freedom from frivolous F functionality!

...*Coughs*...Anyway... :P

I think that could be an additional flashback, frankly. If someone was trying to complete a ritual they started in a former human life, then I don't see why the Scions couldn't have a flashback as to the method of murder at first, showing them that this isn't the first time he's tried, and as he gets closer, they flashback to what the ritual actually does. Which can be a great source of tension. "Shit, he's killing again, all in the same of casting a spell! What audacity, what malice, what...!" *Blank Stare at something seemingly far away for a few moments* "...Oh, fuck me."

Besides, what ritual spell that creates puppies and sunshine requires human sacrifices? The Scions shouldn't need a flashback to tell that this's bad shit. They just need to look at the Evil Overlord List :P

Trevelyan wrote:
In which case, would the relevent flashback not be to a time in the mythic age when the brood was investigating a similar arrangement between human slavers and fae?

Sure, but I think it'd lose some of the personal quality. I think it really matters, which this entire question on human flashbacks really comes down to, is how much of the supernatural you want. Which I'll explain below, since I'm addressing the individual things here.

I think it'd also hit a bit closer to home, if it was only a hundred or so years back, instead of an Era. The Mythic Age was, for all of its' success, also a time of savagery to a degree. It was very much a time of survival, and if selling some people went being able to feed your family/tribe/village/town/city, then so be in.

Nowadays, though, it isn't, for severe lack of a better word, considered kosher. Sure, it happens, but it's heavily frowned upon, to say the understatement of the year. Compare, for instance, the fact that nearly no one takes issue with the fact that certain Native American and African tribes took people as slaves from other tribes, and yet there's still repercussions from the enslavement of Africans by early Americans. I'm not saying it's right in any instance, to any degree, but I believe that slavery by a culture which isn't considered as advanced culturally as others is seen in a different light then when a more...refined, for lack of a better word, culture does it.

So I definitely think the slavery aspect has different connotations, depending on whether you depict slavery in Victorian England or the Mythic Age. In the Mythic Age, slavery can be given a slight moral ambiguity. If it's enemy soldiers being sold off to Fae so the village can be fed after the soldiers burned the crop, then it's a different moral scape then someone doing it in Victorian England for pure greed.

I also think that doesn't end at slavery. Someone in the Mythic Age killing the murderer of their brother is different then someone in the 1920s doing it. Or, for a more infamous example, the Ritual of the Horse from the Mythic Age, if the sidebar is read from between the lines, results in the characters going "Huh...awesome, there's gonna be a feast. Hand me that bread.". But you come across that in a city in 1890s England, being performed by a born-and-raised English woman, and that's some crazy shit. :P

Trevelyan wrote:
"If you can suggest another target, a military target, then name the system." What actual modern city, ideally in the English speaking world (given FFG's core market), could legitimately have existed in the mythic age?

Frankly? Take your pick. It'd be stupidly easy to take almost any newish city and just say that was the site of something big and shiny in the Mythic Age. It doesn't need to have literally existed in the Mythic Age(Although Detroit being there when the pilgrims arrived would certainly explain a lot... :P ), merely be the location of something important from there. After all, supposedly dragons are coming back to themselves just now; it'd seem to make sense to use a city that was big and important in the Mythic Age, and is now becoming big and important again.

I think, history-wise, about the best places would be in North America, merely because there isn't a super-long history of cities being here. The problem with that being gun-laws in the United States, although that could be mitigated to a degree, I believe, by placing it in Canada, which isn't quite as gun-crazy.

In England, I'd suggest Manchester. It isn't quite as iconic as London, but it has the benefit of being newer, and I'd gladly live in the city that Crowley built. :P

Frankly, I don't think it's very important where it's set. Yes, I think they're wasting Londons' potential as a hotspot for human flashback activity if they intended to limit it to draconic existences, but it isn't like Londons' long history is hurting it, either.

Trevelyan wrote:
You could get a similar effect from most large European capitals. Rome, Paris, etc would all be equally viable, but the language barrier presents a few problems for FFG. The fact that these cities actually look to a RL historical past within the last few millenia is not an indication that Fireborn is looking directly at the juxtaposition of past and present within that time period. It's just that actual cities in the real world only go back so far.

Why do you have to suggest there're other cities like me? Here I was, thinking London was the one for me, then you just gotta break balls. :P

And I don't, necessarily, think you need to set it somewhere that existed then and now. The point I was trying to make, like I said above, is merely that I think they're wasting Londons' long history if they intended to make Scions only have flashbacks from being dragons, since a lot of shit's happened since then. At that point, while London certainly brings together the basic theme of "Past and Present colliding", it's never going to be utilized like it could be.

Beyond the basic theme permeating the city, however, London is easily replaceable with almost any place that isn't fundamentally different as to break the stock rules, such as an abundance of guns. Which I think is a huge shame, since human flashbacks could make it worthwhile to have a city with a long past.

But, as I said, while London is easily replaceable, it's also not even remotely a requirement. The city doesn't hurt from a lack of human flashbacks, merely has potential that got wasted.

Trevelyan wrote:
I disagree. London provides a sense of history which the game extends further to hint at the mythic age. Ancient buildings, hidden rivers, castles, crypts and the like support the atmosphere of the game, and the size of London allows for a variety of stories to take place. Add to that the common language and you see why London was chosen. As it happens, much of TFW takes place outside London.

I really have no response, simply because everything I would say has been said above. And I agree, London is horribly atmospheric when it comes to the theme. I just think it isn't utilized as much as it could be.

Anyway, about the comment I made about human flashbacks making sense depending on how supernatural you want it.

I think that'd be the biggest element in play, here, where our views split. And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, since I have no intentions of putting words in your mouth. It's merely my observances.

You see it as more fantasy-oriented then I do. You, I believe, see it as more about Scions growing into dragons, whereas I see it as Scions needing both halves. Therefore, for you, Mythic Age flashbacks suffice because they take place where they're dragons, even in instances where they could be with the Scions as humans, whereas I can see the merit in mixing in some human flashbacks.

So, for instance, if there was a player having a flashback when he saw a dead body at a crime scene, you'd scoot to the Mythic Age and show something about how someone died similarly there. I'd likely scoot to a human flashback of an investigator in Victorian England if I felt it had merit and didn't contain something that required it to be in the Mythic Age.

Therefore, I think the split between the desire to include flashbacks as humans, and the desire to include solely flashbacks as dragons, comes from the differing styles. The latter would play up the fantasy aspects of the game, whereas the other would include more mundane and human elements. Neither is intrinsically better, just different ways. And, admittedly, the books support the latter easier then the former, although I don't think the former is so out of reach as to be considered a complete and utter deviation.

What do you think? Obviously, I don't know what you think on it, and I'm not trying to say what you're suggesting(I suck at subtle suggestions :P), merely that I think the split is in how we'd depict Scions; you see them as humans becoming dragons, and thus the only flashbacks that really matter are ones as dragons, whereas I see them as humans becoming dragons, and thus needing the flashbacks...but still human, to a degree, making human flashbacks possible.

Monday mornings are always busy, I'll answer properly tomorrow.

Just some quick thoughts I had on Enlightened Humans;

A) Enlightened Humans choose two things during CharGen; Occupation, like Scions, and Path. Path determines any specific specialties the Enlightened Human has. The four I currently have in mind are;

Warden: Warriors of the Enlightened Society.
Prodigy: The skilled folk, who typically specialize in one or two skills.
Seer: The mystical book-keepers, who specialize in using Magic.

Orphan: Enlightened who haven't found another path, either from being newly Enlightened or wandering in life. The biggest benefit of being an Orphan is that you may eventually choose another Path.

Others are possible, of course.

B) An optional Mythic Age setting for the Enlightened. I can't recall if there's anything in the books on the Americas, but I'm thinking that there'd be a kingdom of some sort in some part of the Americas ruled by a few Sorcerer-Kings of the Enlightened. Kind of like the Solar Deliberative in Exalted, where being one of the Enlightened makes you royalty by default. The general flow would be three time periods;

1) The establishment of the kingdom, when the Sorcerer-Kings were still feuding amongst each other and the supernatural denizens of the land.

2) After the establishment, in which the Sorcerer-Kings rule over it. The biggest thing in this period is the beginning of the populace embracing magic themselves, spurred on by mysterious outsiders, and the spread of Taint from it. One of those settings which seems good, but has shit brewing under it. Which leads to...

3) The twilight of the Kingdom, in which the Sorcerer-Kings outlaw magic being performed by anyone but themselves, and the populace eventually overthrowing them, right at the end of the Mythic Age. Taint is widespread, even if no one is exactly sure what it is, and that breeds distrust. The Sorcerer-Kings have an inkling that something bad is happening, related to the populace using magic, and ban its' use. They resort to a secret police to arrest and kill those who go against the orders, and the populaces' distrust slowly grows to a boil over a belief that the Sorcerer-Kings are merely attempting to hoard spellcasting to themselves.

This would be along the lines of the various enemies of the Enlightened I presented earlier; something that could be included wholesale, picked apart, or left out entirely. Just something for those people who really want either a history for the Enlightened, or a chance for Mythic Age flashbacks with non-Scions.