Gnome follower--overpowered?

Okay, I have now played 3 games of 4e Talisman. Each game was one-on-one with my girlfriend who had never before played Talisman. She's beaten me twice (and if THAT'S not grounds for humiliation right there, I don't know what is!)

Anyways, in all three games, the winner has had the gnome, and the winner went the craft path in the Inner Region. It's really the advantage in the mines where the gnome makes a huge difference. Without the gnome, rolling 3 dice in the mines your average roll will be an 11.5. So you'll really need at least a craft of 9 to even reasonably contemplate navigating through them. Likewise for strength in the crypt.

With the gnome, rolling two dice the average roll becomes a 7. With a craft of 5 you stand a very reasonable chance of either being able to progress, or at the very least just kicking back one space to try again next turn. Craft-based characters START with a craft of 4 or 5. Meaning that a starting character with a gnome, talisman, and a way to get to the middle region has already won the game. In practical reality, it won't play out to that extreme, but a competitive balance between two characters will be eliminated if one draws the gnome.

I'm wondering if there are any official considerations being made to tweak the gnome? What's interesting to me is that the dwarf was actually changed in the errata card to make his power identical to the gnome. Neither of us have played as the dwarf yet, but that seems like another ticket to an easy win. 2-3 points of craft and a talisman card and the game's over.

Alternatively, what about tweaking the Pit Fiends space? I mean, take the dwarf for instance. Say he draws a Talisman card and then bumps his craft by 2 points within the first 10 turns. Now he just needs to find a way across the river--an axe will do--and even if he hasn't raised strength a single point he's only at a -1 roll against the Pit Fiends. With that axe he's actually even. They're just too weak when even a beginning character can stand up to them.

Oski wrote:Okay, I have now played 3 games of 4e Talisman. Each game was one-on-one with my girlfriend who had never before played Talisman. She's beaten me twice (and if THAT'S not grounds for humiliation right there, I don't know what is!)

Anyways, in all three games, the winner has had the gnome, and the winner went the craft path in the Inner Region. It's really the advantage in the mines where the gnome makes a huge difference. Without the gnome, rolling 3 dice in the mines your average roll will be an 11.5. So you'll really need at least a craft of 9 to even reasonably contemplate navigating through them. Likewise for strength in the crypt.

With the gnome, rolling two dice the average roll becomes a 7. With a craft of 5 you stand a very reasonable chance of either being able to progress, or at the very least just kicking back one space to try again next turn. Craft-based characters START with a craft of 4 or 5. Meaning that a starting character with a gnome, talisman, and a way to get to the middle region has already won the game. In practical reality, it won't play out to that extreme, but a competitive balance between two characters will be eliminated if one draws the gnome.

I'm wondering if there are any official considerations being made to tweak the gnome? What's interesting to me is that the dwarf was actually changed in the errata card to make his power identical to the gnome. Neither of us have played as the dwarf yet, but that seems like another ticket to an easy win. 2-3 points of craft and a talisman card and the game's over.

Alternatively, what about tweaking the Pit Fiends space? I mean, take the dwarf for instance. Say he draws a Talisman card and then bumps his craft by 2 points within the first 10 turns. Now he just needs to find a way across the river--an axe will do--and even if he hasn't raised strength a single point he's only at a -1 roll against the Pit Fiends. With that axe he's actually even. They're just too weak when even a beginning character can stand up to them.

I totally understand where you are coming from. When I first started playing the game, we considered anyone picking up the gnome, on the road to instant victory. The more you play the game, I think you'll see this isn't so. Alot of what you mention is if you player happens to get the perfect circumstances for the game. The pit fiends for example with the dwarf, if they roll a six thats six fiends that have to attack him, you could roll really badly and lose all you're lives to these guys. This is of course only if he has a baseline of 4 lives, which I doubt becuase they have just been through the vampires. Not to mention if possibilty of failing getting through thr portal of power which would remove one of the stat you used to try an enter. I've seen people with the gnome sacrifice the gnome to the vampires thinking they'll no longer need it, over confident of their ability to defeat the fiends, only to have to move back or die.

This is of course not before you've drawn many adventure cards and possibly been beaten down by enemies, while also getting attacked from your fellow players. I feel like I am babling here, but there are so many variables running through my mind at the moment in regards to the gnome, I mean anything can happen. This is of course if a character even picks up the card. I've seen people with the Orb of Knowledge DISCARD the Gnome, so people dont get it, meaning that you have to wait until the next deck to get it.

In regards to the Dwarf abilities being the same as having the gnome, it's the same with the prophetess and the Orb of Knowledge, which I personally think a VERY powerful card which has saved my skin on many occasions.

If you want overpowered, think of the Ghoul + Runesword + Gnome + Armour. That's just nasty!

Ugh, don't get me started again on the Ghoul...that's already the topic of discussion in the other thread. ANY character with the Runesword is powerful, and a Ghoul using a runesword means that he's not using psychic combat which means he isn't using his character power to drain lives which means he's really better off NOT being a Ghoul. Ghouls are so overrated. A warrior or troll with a Runesword will utterly destroy a Ghoul with a Runesword.

I totally go right for the Gnome if someone picks him up. He's pretty insane.

If someone gets the gnome it should be an all out race to get the gnome. So what is the biggie? You kill the person with the gnome, take him and go win the game, pretty easy. Now if he is on the second track and you are on the first and he get the gnome, well then I guess you were just out of position.

theTroll

theTroll wrote:If someone gets the gnome it should be an all out race to get the gnome. So what is the biggie? You kill the person with the gnome, take him and go win the game, pretty easy. Now if he is on the second track and you are on the first and he get the gnome, well then I guess you were just out of position.

theTroll

That's a far more viable strategy in a 4-6 player game than a 2-player game. In a 2-player game, if you are within 6 squares of your opponent, you will actually land ON your opponent one in six times. So if the player with the gnome has 4 lives at the time, you will need 24 turns on average to bring him down--and that's assuming that you win every single battle with him/her. Granted, your opponent won't want to enter the Inner Region with less than 2 lives for fear of dying at the vampire's tower or the pit fiends, but even so 12 turns should be sufficient to get there, and that's STILL assuming that the other player is successful in both battles.

I lost track of my 'Gnome Follower Data' but to me he is over powered. I think 15 out of 16 games the Gnome Follower was with the Character who 1st entered the Crown of Command, and 14 out of those 15 games The character with the Gnome won. (The other time, a Well Timed 'Random Spell' Toaded the 1st character on the crown, or was it, made him lose all of his Strength? I'm not sure which, but I know it was the random spell)

House rule:

The gnome can EITHER help you with the Portal *OR* the Mines. Not both.

Death to the Gnomey ! ! ! !

Rett wrote:I lost track of my 'Gnome Follower Data' but to me he is over powered. I think 15 out of 16 games the Gnome Follower was with the Character who 1st entered the Crown of Command, and 14 out of those 15 games The character with the Gnome won. (The other time, a Well Timed 'Random Spell' Toaded the 1st character on the crown, or was it, made him lose all of his Strength? I'm not sure which, but I know it was the random spell)

House rule:

The gnome can EITHER help you with the Portal *OR* the Mines. Not both.

Death to the Gnomey ! ! ! !

Even that, I think doesn't go far enough. The choice to me would remain fairly obvious. A character with a Craft of 10 has around a 90% chance of making it past the Portal of Power, and around a 40% of making it past the mines. Choosing to use the gnome on the Portal will boost that 90% to 100% (and admittedly eliminate that off-chance of losing a stat point) but using him on the Mines shoots that 40% figure up to 90%.

To me the fair way to handle the gnome and the dwarf would be to have them act as a +2 to craft for both squares. This essentially halves their effectiveness, because on average one die is worth about 3.5 craft. The power would still be exceptional even with that difference.

And I'm all for house rules, but I have a certain amount of deference to authority on games, too...so it would be nice to see an official errata, or an official determination that there is no imbalance posed by the gnome...

If we're talking about making the game perfectly balanced, then lets just take a step back. Looking at this realistically, we'll need to start the game from scratch, becuase there is just way too much that would need balancing. I for one think the Warrior's ability to roll two die in combat just incrediably insane. I mean one of the one of the whole aspects of this game that semi-balances things is pure randomness, and getting to roll two die instead of one is an incredable advantage.

So maybe with the Gnome, instead of removing a die, it can give you the option of deducting 1D6 off your roll or something. So you'll still roll 2 D6 at the Portal of Power and 3 D6 at the mines, bu t you may roll 1 D6 to deduct that amount from your total. Before people say thats redundant, it's not.

I could have a Craft of 10 on the Mines, roll 3D6 and roll a 6, 4 and 2, giving you 12! Damn, you rolled over, but then you roll a D6 deduction, so you may roll a 6, and get less than 10 allowing you to move through, or you may roll a 1 still moving you back to the Plain of Peril.

OH BOY! so many things to talk about on this thread.

I'm wondering if there are any official considerations being made to tweak the gnome?

Nothing to tweak it as far as I know. I heard chatter of another card to help balance it (a card for the crypt)

Ghouls are so overrated. A warrior or troll with a Runesword will utterly destroy a Ghoul with a Runesword.

troll would not win. The reference to the ghoul with the runesword, is that he would gain lives in both strength or craft attack. Troll does not have this option.

You kill the person with the gnome, take him and go win the game,

As someone else said, it is very difficult to actualy try and "kill" a person. only if you get luck, and land on them with 1 life or something, AND you are strong enough to defeat them. Even if you kill them, you still dont get the followers and objects.

If we're talking about making the game perfectly balanced, then lets just take a step back. Looking at this realistically, we'll need to start the game from scratch, becuase there is just way too much that would need balancing.

Edition 3 was designed to be more balanced. And the general feel of most players is they DID NOT LIKE edition 3, partialy for that reason, and for the art work. (this opinion is mostly felt by avid edition 2 players) Example, any character could attack in strength or craft. All kills could be cashed in for whatever you wanted.

Why did the gnome get powerfull? for the same reason that the Priest got less powerfull. They changed a small rule from edition 2 to edition 4. Players never got to exchange craft for experience. granted there are not alot, but this little tweak shifted it from being a game based on Strength, with a Craft backup, to more "balanced" between the two stats.

Oh one more thing.

A varriant I hand on the gnome, was actually from miss-reading the card the first time.

Instead of.."You only roll 1 dice when opening the PoP by Craft and 2 dice in the Mine"

Try this..."You may re-roll 1 dice when opening the Pop by Craft and 2 dice in the Mine"

It tones him down a bit (have not calculated any odds or anything yet) but still strong.

Firstly, that is what I meant with the Ghoul, spot on Hallow.

What I didn't mean is an Edition 3 make over. When I said work from the ground up, I mean there has to be people trying this stuff along the entire development path, which obviously wasn't done with Edition 4. I mean if we players on the forums can pickup these plethora of mistakes, surely the people who make the game can. I just think they need to put a bit more time and effort into making sure things are being used as they intended, nothing is too over powered etc.

After the first couple of games I considered the Gnome unbalancing and overpowered too. Now I think that he can still decide the winner, but only if the situation is favourable.

In 5-6 player games the Gnome is a drop in the ocean. The chance of being attacked, hindered or selected as spell target is very high and you cannot be sure of what you possess. A Follower could be taken or lost, although it is easier to take an Object than a Follower. You still need additional Craft, a Talisman and to cross the river in order to win the game; all these requirements are difficult to be met in a big game.

There are many elements that can deny an early victory. In my last game I was the Thief, got excellent objects (found or stolen) and needed a Mule to carry more. I found the vicious Cursed by a Hag and could not have Followers. I spend a whole game hour trying to reach the Village by all means (dice, gaining a Teleport spell, Magic Portal, Shrine, Tavern) and in the meantime I drew the Maiden, the Gnome, the Unicorn, a Mule... and left them on the board for the others. I also stole a Mule at the Market (I tried to do that several times and I succeeded only when I found the Hag).

I tried to step into Middle Region with a Psionic Blast on the Sentinel. Another Character Counterspell-ed it and blocked all my strategy, because I also had a Mesmerism Spell with me to take the Gnome when there was no Counterspell left in play. Nothing happened because it took me a long time to reach the Middle Region and I must cast the Mesmerism to get a Mule.

In 2-3 player games less spells are cast, less cards are drawn and the Characters encounter each other less often. This makes the Gnome a valuable Follower if a player try to win the game early on, while the others can't follow or cast Spells to stop them.

To clarify/elaborate on the issue, I am not seeking a complete balance-project for the game. There are many cards in the deck that will instantly redefine the scope of who is winning/losing, and I'm fine with that. What I don't like about the gnome is not so much that he's unbalancing, it's that he's a game-over card. After 3 hours of play we might be neck-and-neck, both thinking about Crown of Command strategies. We've got Strength/Craft of, say, 10 apiece. I might draw the Orb of Knowledge, yes! What an extra perk! But then my opponent draws the gnome. She's gonna make a Crown of command run and if I can't catch her by the time she hits the Mines, it's probably over. That's what is unique about the gnome.

With having the 'choice' of using the Gnome at the PoP or Mines, you will have to take a chance.

1- If you FAIL at the PoP, you autolose 1 from your choosen attribute. (Its funny how alot of people miss this little bit of text on the playing board)

2- You could end up in the Outer region with a bad roll.

I'm not saying, the way I suggested is the ONLY or the BEST alternative, just that it is an Alternative to 'Dumb down the Dwarf'

I hope what Hallow said about hearing about a follower on the Strength side ISNT true. I dislike the Gnome, I surely do not want to see another follower of this type added.

Just my humble ramblings

'Death to the Gnomey'

I like the Gnome as it can help a weaker character who would have taken a while to build up attributes get the jump on other players.

Doing so can change the whole dynamic of the game and hence change strategies for everyone.

As to having a Strength based equivalent, I can see how it would help change things as currently with the Gnome and the random nature of Dice with Death, the left hand path is probably favoured by most.

Remember that 2nd edition had the Shovel and the Map? I do agree that the gnome is powerful. Having just lost to the Prophet/Gnome. I mean she could have gone up long before my daughter Rachel decided to put an end to our misery. LOL... I tried but only got as far as the Plain of Peril. My wife was the Warrior and got to the Vampires tower but it was too late. We have a few rules for quick play like when you get to the crown you win and we use the Experience rule as in 3rd edition. We also don't allow each player to fight each other so once you get the Gnome only a Mesmerism can get him from them.

The only thing I dislike of '1st to crown wins' its sooooo sweet to drop a Random spell on the Crown Occupant, and reduce him to a toad.

We only do that because this is my wife's like second or third game. My daughter has a few games under her belt and is ready for the " more vicious " regular rules.

Me thinks the daughter likes the smell of fresh blood

Maybe. LOL... We have played a few times now and she is getting good at the rules. We were going to start another game tonight but got caught up in that Yahoo Video conference thing. I got it to work between the desk top and the laptop. We share the same cable connection but it worked fine. Off topic my bad.

Crow T Robot wrote:My daughter has a few games under her belt and is ready for the " more vicious " regular rules.

Methinks you require this...

The Gnome used to be a "Must Have" character but nowadays, no one really cares... Its just the complete wussiness of the Craft route compared to the Strength route (which is hard...).

We made the following changes:

Werewolf: roll 2d6 + 4 to determine its Strength (giving you a nice average of 11). After dicing off with Death and then facing the Werewolf, we've found its a real challenge to go the Strength route

Pit Fiends: Each Pit Fiend is Craft 8. Roll 1 die to determine the number of Pit Fiends. Each Pit Fiend rolls a die and you choose the highest. Even that isn't particularly great. I'd be tempted to make the Pit Fiends Craft 10. with the aforementioned ability.

That might make the the 'Fiends more of a challenge. Especially after being softened up by a stay at the Vampire's Tower...

I would definantly agree that the Craft path is easier.

I probably would not change the pit fiends from strength to craft.

We have found that the 1-6 crit rule helps out the pit fiends, as the rest of the board. Rolling 2 dice for each of their attacks is good too.

Carefull when adding more power to the wearwolf. Adding +4 may sound like a nice 11 avarage, but being that there is ony "1" roll, you statisicaly cant count on the avarage. what you have is a range of 6-16. + the D6 roll your looking at a potential fight of 22. This would actualy make the Strength path a even worse option than it already is.

The Thing that drives me away from the strength path the most is the DICE with DEATH. With the Vampire tower, you can at least calculate a worst case senario (3 lives) and even then you can subsitue follwers. With DwD, mathamaticly he can take 6 lives, and that is actualy plausable with odds calculations. (loosing 7 times, would be a statisical annomily) And there is nothing else to sacrifce.

Perhapse if you could loose objects or lives on that space? Sort of like its counter part in the tower...loose followers or lives.

The thing is, the craft path is surposed to be easier, as craft is harder to come by. I have the original (2nd ed?) game, but we used to play with a house rule that you could trade in craft monsters and everyone went by craft. Once you remove that rule (as i understand it, the new rules allow trading of craft monsters) craft is hard to get, so the craft path should be eaiser.

The vampire tower is not just eaiser as it is d3 lives (followers) but it only takes a turn, were as dice with death is slow. I think in all of my games, i have seen the pit fiends hold someone up once.