Which Houses win in your games the most?

It became readily apparent that the power of each house has a lot more to do with player's prejudices than what cards they have and their geography.

Our first few games were Stark and Lannister dominating each other (mostly 4 player).

Now we've started heading that off and had Baratheon's first win (4 player).

Tyrell have barely had a look-in and Greyjoy got into a war of attrition with Lannister.

How does it work with your group?

I'd say Baratheon are my strongest house to play, just because they can capture so many cities before having to get into a fight...but once I get rumbled or we bring in House Martell I'm guessing that will change.

4 player AGOT games are far from balanced. Lannister will claim most win, easly picking up the nearby Greyjoy areas, while missing his opposition. Second profiteur of the squids absence will be Stark.

5 player AGOT games are abit more balanced, you can play to adjust to things better, but still Baratheon and Greyjoy will win most games, while Lannister and Tyrell are the most handicapped.

6 player is even better with Martell added in the Southwest and the southern part of the map generally revised. The ports that come with ACOK do help additionally and can be added to a standard 5 player game as well.

Best balance you will get is 4 player ASOS though.

Umbratus wrote:Best balance you will get is 4 player ASOS though.

Ah sweet, good to know.

Lannister and Stark get gang bashed so much in four player now they're at a disadvantage in our group.

I am not quite sure what you are referring to.

I am referring to the new map that comes with the ASOS expansion, which is made for 4 players max, and its best played by 4 players of course.

Playing with 4 players on the old map is not balanced at all.

As a general rule you can say that you should use the max amount of players that can play on a map to get the best possible balance.

That is 5 players with vanilla AGOT, 6 players when you add the map overlay that comes with ACOK and 4 when using the completely map that comes with ASOS.

Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing

we have had pretty good distributions of first place over 20 games with it being lannister stark baratheon and greyjoy in that order but close, the tyrell and martells have no wins though but both mainly end up in the top 4.

came across this house win stat page somehow

http://westeros.rahja.net/

I really haven't played enough to give an opinion. However, what I see, is that player skill is more important than starting house. Since the skill level in my group varies tremendously from player to player, any statistics I made would be meaningless, and would only represent the number of times certain members have played a house.

Umbratus wrote:
4 player AGOT games are far from balanced. Lannister will claim most win, easly picking up the nearby Greyjoy areas, while missing his opposition. Second profiteur of the squids absence will be Stark.

Well, I don't think that this is a problem, as Stark goes South overland, towards Greyjoy areas, Baratheon heads inland for Harrenhal, and Tyrell maintains his navy, looking for the best place to strike. When playing, the better players in my group look to see who has the most free space, and head that direction.

5 player AGOT games are abit more balanced, you can play to adjust to things better, but still Baratheon and Greyjoy will win most games, while Lannister and Tyrell are the most handicapped.

I would agree with you here.

6 player is even better with Martell added in the Southwest and the southern part of the map generally revised. The ports that come with ACOK do help additionally and can be added to a standard 5 player game as well.

Yep. (Not that my opinion was in any way needed).

However, you haven't given your opinion of a 3 player AGoT!

I actually like AGoT as a 3 player, owing to the fact that you can then influence every portion of the board directly. Diplomacy is removed, but in its place, you get a beautiful game of military skill. The person who gets his troops in the best position, with the best orders, has the best chance of winning. Furthermore, you can affect everyone on the board. The problem with a 6 player ACoK, is that if you are playing Tyrell, there is really very little you can do to hit Stark. A 3 player doesn't have that problem.

I like a 4 player ASoS better though.

I used to keep written records of all the games my friends and I would play(60+games) If my memory serves me correct in our 6 player games Stark and Baratheon each won about 25% of the time. Stark has 4 easy cities near by(Winterfell/White Harbour/Moat Calin/The Eyrie) and usually grabs Flint's Finger and Crackclaw point later on. Baratheon has 3 easy cities near by(Dragonstone/King's Landing/Crackclaw point) They can usually grab Storm's end from a Martel player who is occupied with Tyrell and Harrenhal from a Lannister player who is fending off Greyjoy. They end up taking the Reach for the win.
In my 5 player games Baratheon again was the best house followed by Stark and Greyjoy.

In the six player you mentioned, Baratheon should be heading Stark off by fighting for that sea just above him. This keeps Stark out of the Eyrie, and puts pressure on most of the others. I do agree that Stark and Baratheon have the least pressured opening positions.

Joram wrote:In the six player you mentioned, Baratheon should be heading Stark off by fighting for that sea just above him. This keeps Stark out of the Eyrie, and puts pressure on most of the others. I do agree that Stark and Baratheon have the least pressured opening positions.

Its very hard for Baratheon to press north in a 6 player game when stark has unraidable sea support from the white harbor port and the shivering sea. Plus they now have to worry about Martel.

True. But this is a game of diplomacy after all.

Anything is possible if you talk enough.

Joram wrote:True. But this is a game of diplomacy after all. Anything is possible if you talk enough.

True enough but no amount of diplomacy will remove Stark's two support orders

Bighab wrote:
True enough but no amount of diplomacy will remove Stark's two support orders

Then how about treachery? Lure the guillable fools into thinking that you are their friend, and then let them have it!

i find on the normal 4 AGOT map is a bit more balanced if you remove PYKE from the game and add +1 to all Greyjoy units on the map. I find the it forces the Lannister player to fight abit more for castles and makes him wait for a mustering or use his +1 march to take Ironmans bay on 1st turn. We have played a few games before these rules and Lannister 90% won every game but after these rules Lannister wasn't as likely to win.

so for a 4 player vanilla agot game we use
+1 to all greyjoy units
remove Pyke from the game ( the idea we stole from 3 player ASOS rules)

let me know if anyone tries these rules.

since i started playing the game 2-3 years ago, until a year ago, me and my friends played once almost every week (these good days when we had time..). now we barely meet. anyway, since we started, the games were pretty balanced, and the houses were almost equally good. but I always had a strong feeling that Baratheon and Greyjoy had an advantage over the other houses, and im not talking about that 1 more ship (Iwm talking about the 5 and 6 players game, never tried the 4 or 3).

And since a bit after we started with a clash of kings, i actually found many "cracks" in the game, in favor of Greyjoy, Baratheon, and one for Tyrell. Certain series of moves which can give one house an advantage, and usually, the other houses had very little to do about it, if any.
well, i started to win frequently with greyjoy, until everyone attacked me automatically everytime i was greyjoy. now i think i found another trick which prevent even that.

the first and very effective trick i found, is to place, in the first turn as Greyjoy, a special order "the iron fleet" in his sea, and a march order (usually +0, can be +1 too if its ASOS and you use "carefull planning"
tactic card). the catch is, that to prevent a possible attack from greyjoy in the sea, lannister must place a defense order +2, or save it so he will be able to switch with the raven. when its my turn to raid, i simply
remove that defense order with the iron fleet, and attack next march. if he switchs to raid in order to destroy my iron fleet, i can attack him as if i destroyed his defense order (this trick can be used with other special orders like tyrells special one, if your opponent wanna save his money/housecard/prevent you from mustering, he must sacrifice something, but thats the only situation he looses his order no matter what he does). at the end of the turn, i controll both greyjoy's and lannister's seas, and it is almost impossible to get me out. i can jump almost everywhere and capture lannister cities. i have 8,iirc, in reach. the only way to prevent this is to place the lannister's special order. in that case, lannister wont muster, and since i can see if he places a special order before i decide, he will waste his and i will save mine..

another, more powerful trick i found, but unfortunately, could never try, is to use "managed troops" tactic card at the first turn with greyjoy, and place a march +0 order on his single footman, (or, more cautious version is to use carefull planning, and if the conditions are right, waste 2 tokens to take managed troops. now you can use march+1), raid on pike, and march -1 on the ship. with the raid, i move everything to the footman. on my first march turn, i move the ship to the sunset sea, and then immidiately, with the mannaged troops, to the sea near stark. the next one, i use the forced march to collect attacking force, and with the +0/+1 one, i attack winterfell if i can, leave 2 footmans to take seaguard and Flint's Finger. mustering and AGOT the next turn are the perfect events and i can even win at the 2nd turn that way. there is very little stark can to to prefent this,especially if he dont see this coming, and if he does, it will most probably ruin his game. to make it clear: i can have an attacking foce of up to 9.5- 1 knight, 2 footmen, +1 march order, 2 connanders (1 +1 and 1 +2), and valerian steel blade. (the .5 means i win ties). if i leave the 2 footmen, its 7.5.
i dont see how stark get more than 7 there to defend, without ruining his plans, or more-his game. he cant place a support on his ship, and not defence on winterfell, because he must have a march on the ship and more more marchs than baratheon, or he will loose the narrow sea and..

i dont like stark. they are very vulnerable,they may have hard time trying to defend both sides, against baratheon and greyjoy, and so they must rely alot on diplomacy and luck.

so if i leave the 2 footmen, place mustering on pike, and there are mustering and AGOT, a place a fortification on winterfell, muster a ship to the sunset sea, from Flint's Finger, and siege engine at pike and maybe at seaguard (or a knight, depends on if no one has enough power to attack it there)
and then, according to the situation i place orders and plan attacks on 3 cities: White Harbour, Moat Calin, and riverun. i can attack white harbour only from winterfell, and if so, moat calin only from seaguard, and riverun from pike. but i can use raids, and forced march/iron fleet to manipulate the forces and remove defences.

there are many, but these 2 are the best.

oh, and if its 5 players not 6, and you use the fix to the order in the iron throne, so tyrell is before greyjoy, he can use managed troops himself, to get to stark's sea, and later, maybe have a bridge of ships to winterfell.

do you know any other tricks like these?
dont you think now greyjoy is a bit overpowered?

p.s

bighab, there is nothing unraidable for sure. for example, that support from the port can be raided by the will of r'hllor at the most unexpected time. but as i said, to take controll on the narrow sea stark must have more marches than baratheon at the first turn, so he must place 3 marches because he doesnt now what baratheon will do, it can be 3 marches too. but when one side take controll of the narrow sea, its hard to make him out.

This is a long read and as I found flaws in both your "best" plans I skipped over pretty much the rest of it.

If Lannister fears Greyjoy uses the Iron Fleet in Turn 1 he can as well use the Lions Cunning by himself to completely save him from being harassed in Turn 1, that makes all the rest you wrote void.

Sure, Greyjoy is strong when he controls those seas, no doubt about that. With ports Lannister can at least maintain a single ship to raid away Sunset Seas support.

Your second plan is a rule violation actually because by definition Forced March may never be used in the same Turn where you play Manage Troops. This cuts off that one pretty early.

Sure its an option to drive a boat to Shivering Sea in Turn 1 to threaten Stark, but he still has that port to claim back that sea while Lannisters and Tyrells fleets are at his back.

So we are definately not talking about Ãœber-moves here that totally kill the game balance

edit:

oh, and if its 5 players not 6, and you use the fix to the order in the iron throne, so tyrell is before greyjoy, he can use managed troops himself, to get to stark's sea, and later, maybe have a bridge of ships to winterfell.

Thats wrong as well, the "fix" (which is not only recommended but a MUST do and also incorporated in all reprints of AGOT) is to switch KINGS COURT positions of Tyrell/Greyjoy not Iron Throne, so this concerns amount of available star orders, so Greyjoy has none to start with. There is no fix to change order of movement at all.

ok, the forced march is not on the same turn with the managed troops, i edited it -i was wrong. i use raid instead, much better-i flip the general and move.
and- read the rest of my first plan- if lannister puts the lion cunning he risks loosing it for nothing because he places special orders first.
and i can do that iron fleet tricks almost every turn. also, he cant place mustering with cunning, and looses time.

and even if i cant win after capturing winterfell, i am still in a huge advantage.

for the fix- the kings court is a must, i know. i never said i will use a star orders but one: from the careful planning.

i talked about the option to make tyrell 1 before greyjoy on the iron throne.

with 6 players, greyjoy and tyrell have both 0 stars

Hmmm,

Sounds like the expansions unbalance the game a bit.

Still waiting for Storm of Swords to arrive.

We have Clash of Kings but have yet to play it.

Baratheon does quite well at the moment, never gets in a scrap with Lannister and usually beats Tyrell along the coast.

Will be good to see Martell mixing things up a bit.

i talked about the option to make tyrell 1 before greyjoy on the iron throne.

Thats still not an official option or any I have ever heard of.

I tried to play the AGOT map a couple of times with leaders and tactic cards, those games were boring as hell. Its all a big stalemate with experienced players and then with a single breaktrough someone suddenly wins.

I play this game for many years, pretty much since its out, I have gone through all expansions.
The final revelation is still ASOS with its new map and elements.

If I play the old board with 5 or 6 player then its NOT with leaders and tactics, it doesnt really work.

I guess if you decide to make a game of Chess on a Risk map you're going to have balance issues

The new map in Storm sounds great, it would be interesting to see other maps designed for AGoT.

Not an easy task in balancing, though.

sorry for raising it again, i had no time to enter the last month..

can you find any holes in these 2 tactics, after i fixed that little mistake?

thx @ dukehockey for referring to my homepage.
it seems to be obvious that the CoK expansion is much more unbalanced than the vanilla agot.

It strongly depends on which optional rules you are using, and as you dont take that data you cant just say the base game is more balanced than ACOK is, thats just wrong.

There are certain optionals that might imbalance the game but there certainly are some that help to improve it as well.

you are right. it depends on your optional rules, but also on the players and their experience level.
However, it seems that the island houses (baratheon & greyjoy) have the best start positions.
they win most of my games...

next 5 player game i play i'm going to put a town on the arbor, in addition to making oldtown a stronghold i'll report back as to how it turns out, if anyone else has a chance, try it too.