Character power varying with player number

REPOSTED AS I DIDN'T GET REPLIES AT BI:

The game I played last night brought up to my attention a feature of Talisman that I didn't know: the power of each Character varies in different game configurations, with respect to the other Characters in play and their number (2-6)
I've read many times that the Prophetess and the Monk are considered the best Characters: well, my last 6-player game taught me that there could be significant deviations from that standard.

I was glad to pick up the Prophetess. I saw the others pick up the Priest, the Warrior, the Elf, the Troll and the Monk. No Evil Characters around, no Psychic Combat between Characters allowed... it looks like that big stupid Troll has got some advantage, but he will suffer from Spirits and be Toaded soon by one Random Spell or Stranger.

The Prophetess was very promising in the early game. After four turns I got plenty of Gold, bought a Sword and found the Gnome and the Ring. Then the Troll started to attack me and deprive me of my objects; I got stuck with the spells, I couldn't manage to do anything with the prophetic Ability, because I cannot find useful Objects without being attacked by that relentless Troll. The only influence I had on the game was to discard the Wand and the Orb of Knowledge, thus preventing the others from using them.

When many Characters are in play, the cards can be rapidly drawn and the Prophetess benefits become less significant. I had the strange sensation that I was not preventing my problems, but the problems of everyone (Raiders, Magical Vortex, Siren, Pestilence). I never had a real advantage by replacing a card, because that horrid Troll pursued me with persistence and I couldnâ€™t catch a breath. By the way, the Troll got soon the Amulet and the Cross, thus becoming invulnerable and unbeatable. I felt really weak, everybody did, except the Warrior that managed to increase his Strength with some lucky rolls. He succeeded in one lucky Combat against the Troll.

To my biggest surprise the game was won by the Priest, who built up his Craft with the Fountain of Wisdom, the Spirits (now we allow him to cash Spirits) and by praying at the Temple. He made it first to the Crown, then I saw Troll, Warrior and Monk try to chase him. Everybody died before reaching the Crown of Command. I had nothing to do with this great moment, because my Prophetess had three really disgraced Turns, resulting in the loss of 3 Lives in the Middle region and a miserable retreat to the Chapel. I couldnâ€™t even get the healing; the only thing I was able to perform before dying was a Random Spell on the Priest. It drained his Strength, with no effect on the game.

I think this game brings up some details:

1) A Troll is incredibly powerful if there are many Characters in play and nobody can use the Psychic Combat (he can get Amulet and Cross from every Player, as he can defeat everyone);
2) The Prophetess is weakened by the presence of the many other Characters, because cards are drawn at a fast rate and the Prophetess selection is not a great advantage.
3) The same can be said for the Monk; if there are other Strength Characters in play, he cannot build up his Strength if he is not lucky enough to draw Monster Adventure Cards. As far as I can recall, the Monk got very few Monsters in comparison to Troll and Warrior.

Iâ€™m assuming that also the Thief and the Sorceress are stronger in a 6 Player game, as the Troll is. On the contrary, the Prophetess and the Monk seem best suited for a 2-4 Player game. I remember a Wizard with an early Orb of Knowledge in a 3 Player session: very powerful, and he won with no match against a Priest and a Dwarf.

I donâ€™t consider the Priest weak; he is a good middle-of-the-road Character, provided he can cash automatic defeated Spirits.

Have you ever guessed/experienced these variations with Player number?

By the way, this is my temporary Character ranking-list (all played with Special Abilities according to FAQ 1.3):

1. Wizard
2. Warrior
3. Elf
4. Sorceress*
5. Troll**
6. Assassin**
7. Priest
8. Druid
9. Prophetess*
10. Monk*/**
11. Dwarf
12. Ghoul

(never seen Minstrel and Thief yet)

I applied following criterion: there are some Characters that are ALWAYS strong, and they are the Wizard, the Warrior and the Elf. Other Characters are affected by the number of players (*) or by the presence of some particular Characters in play (**). Some have interesting Abilities that can make a little difference (Priest and Druid), others have a full complement of Abilities that cannot be used effectively (Dwarf and Ghoul).

Why is the Wizard so underrated? It looks like an ominous Character to me and versatile also (many players=aggressive Psychic Combat strategy; few players=exploration with massive use of Spells).

Will there be new/different characters in the FFG version?

wow, that is quite a post there my friend.

Here are my player rankings.

1st. Prophett and Elf
2nd. Monk and Wizard
3rd Thief* and Sorceress*
4th Dwarf and Priest
5th Troll and Ghoul
6th Warrior and Minstral
7th Druid Assassin

This is just my oppinion thus far.
* these characters would go up in level in a 5-6 player game. or down in a 2-3 player game

Hi HallowKnight,

everyone has its own experience with the game and the perceived power of the Characters can be very different, depending on the playing conditions (that's the point I'm trying to make).

The players who use to play with minimum number of players (2-3) will find the Prophetess (and the Orb of Knowledge AC) to be very effective and somehow unbalancing. This Character is not that good with many players. The Monk is the same: he needs to increase his Strength with Combat, but he won't be very strong with Assassin, Warrior and Troll in play. Every Strength based Character will shrink the chances of the Monk, who has a big Special Ability but many handicaps. If he can't face Enemies because the other Characters wipe them out, he won't become that powerful. I draw the conclusion that the Warrior is absolutely the best Strength based Character.

I'm just getting back into Talisman after several years' hiatus, so I don't have all that much playing experience yet. But from the little I have, and from a basic reading of the rules, I think the Warrior seems very underrated and the Monk seems very overrated.

The Warrior starts off getting to roll 2 dice for hit attack roll. That right there is huge. The average character's/monster's attack roll is gonna be a 3.5, with a 1/6 chance of a 6 and a 1/6 chance of a 1. The Warrior's average roll is just shy of 4.5, with a 30% chance of rolling a 6 and a mere 1 in 36 chance of rolling a 1. So starting right off, he's an even match for the Monk. Dual wield a pair of weapons and a suit of armor, and it's not even a competition.

The Monk, on the other hand, has his effective starting strength of 5, which is good, but then an immediate inability to use the majority of equipment he can find/buy, which is bad. And then as the game progresses, his increases to Craft won't increase his fighting power; only his starting Craft acts as a Strength modifier. That remaining +3 modifier is good, but not great at all.

However, I don't see the Monk's effectiveness as being that contingent upon the number of players. Sure more players will mean more people attacking the existing monsters on the board, but it will also mean more people drawing new monster cards. Ultimately, there will be a lot more cards lying around, of all types, in a larger game. So the Monk shouldn't be suffering specifically because other people are wiping out all the monsters--except the the extent that other characters, such as the Warrior, can quickly get to be more powerful than the Monk as it is.

Oski wrote:However, I don't see the Monk's effectiveness as being that contingent upon the number of players. Sure more players will mean more people attacking the existing monsters on the board, but it will also mean more people drawing new monster cards. Ultimately, there will be a lot more cards lying around, of all types, in a larger game. So the Monk shouldn't be suffering specifically because other people are wiping out all the monsters--except the the extent that other characters, such as the Warrior, can quickly get to be more powerful than the Monk as it is.

Yes, I should correct my statement. The Monk is influenced not only by the number of players, but mostly by the playing Characters. In the game that I described up there, the Monk suffered because of the high number of players that were capable of beating the Enemies (Troll, Warrior, Elf) or avoiding them (Prophetess). In that particular game, no chance for the poor Monk to increase his stats.

Well, the Monk.

My basis for the monk was on the Latest apparent Errata.

Original Monk. Adds all his craft to his strenght. (very strong)

1st errata Monk. Only adds his Starting Craft to his Strength. (+3 and thats it)

2nd errata Monk. Now he adds his base craft to his Strengt. (base craft= craft without bonus from objects and followers)

I was placing the Monk based on the Lates Errat of him. in the First Errata he was farther down the list. The latest version of him put him back on top. Warrior is good, but only out of the gate.
As far as near the end game for strength power, give me the Monk, or the Ghoul.

You have mixed up to two errata files. The latest one is here. The one on the main BI website is outdated.

The Monk adds his starting Craft to his Strength in Combat.

Thanks for the correction Talismanamsilat

I seem to remember some conversation where some people were upset that they had changed the monk again, to what I had as the final. Mabey it was just talk and did not happen. I guess I will change the Monk AGAIN!!!

OK enough about the Monk. For all you "Number crunchers" out there, and people who like stats and stuff, My wife and I have played Talisman....A lot! I have also tracked to see what characters are comming out on top, for you all to see and enjoy!

Keep in mind that these are all 2 player games. A win for one character ment a loss for the other, so the results are the characters with the best wins vs games ratio. Every character has been envolved in at least 3 games so far. I do understand that statisticly this is not enough data to determine what characters are the "best".

You may bring up the fact that mabey some characters are played by a particular player with less skill, but so far, my Wife and I are very close to even with number of wins. We also do random selection of the characters, and if we played that particular "match" before, we would re-draw.

So without Further a-due...ah-do...a-doo (how do you say it?)
here is the list.

1st place is the ELF, with 100% win ratio
2nd place is the DRUID, with 75% wins. (yea, I know, who would have guessed it!)
3rd places are GHOUL, MONK, and THIEF with 67% wins
4th place goes to SORCERESS and TROLL with 50% wins
the WARRIOR, WIZARD, PRIEST, PROPHETT and DWARF get 5th place with 33% wins.
6th place is MINSTRAL with 25% wins
Last but not least is ASSASSIN with zero wins.

THe games are un-biased against the characters. meaning, regardless of who got what, we were both out to destroy the other!!! (hey, dont laugh, its kind of a marital aid! cheeper than therapy)

Interesting facts:
Only 2 games were won, because the other player died by the hands of the board! (meaning not killed by crown or player)

about half the games wound up being a DUEL in the middle.

about 8 out of 10 games, the Craft path was taken.

we never once had to shuffle the draw deck.

Key events: Late in any game, when a person got hit with Raiders, or the Hag, that is when the other player would Dash for the middle!

HallowKnight wrote:Thanks for the correction Talismanamsilat

<ahem> I think not....

Oh crud! Sorry about that.

TalismanISLAND!!!

I must have been having some sort of flashback or something.
Probably becasue the forementiond conversation about the Monk was with him.

2 players game are very different from big games with 6 players.

I'm not very surprised by the Druid's high winning rate; he takes the benefit from all events with Alignment change. This is a major advantage in 2 player games.

I never played the Elf by myself and my friends never used the Wood teleport ability to its full extent. Nevertheless the Elf played always a major role in each game. I really don't understand where his Strength is to be found, perhaps his starting attributes are the best combination for any game (Strength 3 and Craft 4). I think that Good Alignment is slightly privileged by the rules, mostly because Chapel is better than Graveyard. There's the Evil Darkness, but Siren won't affect demi-humans. Wizard and Warrior look still stronger to me, but the Elf has many pros with little or no penalties.

Another consideration: with 2-3 players you needn't shuffle the deck. In this kind of play a Random Spell, the Witch and the Raiders are the so called game equalizers. In 4-6 player games, Witch and Raiders are not that important, except when they stop the strongest Character (never seen that happen). Random Spell can be very effective if it toad-es a Character on the Crown or just before the Valley of Fire. There's little chance to see that happen and after that the second stronger player will take the place of the toad-ed one. He's not necessarily the one that casted the Random Spell. If a Character doesn't keep the pace of the others, he will never recover in a 4-6 player game. As it is now, Talisman seems better balanced for smaller games than for the maximum no. of players.

Monk:

Ability 1: You may use your Craft instead of your Strength whenever you are in Combat.

This means the Monk may use his 'faith' when fighting instead of physical force.

Can you players please play-test the Monk as above and give some feedback.

Ell.

The ELF;

his power has a simalar paralel to the Prophet making him strong.

NUTS and BOLTS: In talisman the nuts and bolts of the game, are to get (and draw) adventure cards. This is obvious because players are always wanting to land on the Ruins, Hidden Valley, and Oasis. Players get frustrated when there movement options after they roll, put them on undesirable spaces without drawing cards, or landing on one they cant have or use.

So characters that can "Burn" through more cards than other players usually have a advantage in most cases. This is What makes the Prohet powerfull (and orb) becasue you go through almost twice as many, ignoring bad ones. Once the Elf hits the woods, he has controll of his movement, and can hop each turn guarenting him a draw card. (untill the woods get clogged)

This aslo holds true with the Thief and Sorceress, in a larger player game. They get all their own draw cards, and get to take cards from other players.

Other simalr abilites that would be benifical would be movement (roll 2 dice for movement. or go anywhere on a 6). another would be turns. Any character gaining aditional turns for some reason.

The oposite can hold true as well, if you can prevent others from drawing cards. (no ability exists yet)

It would be real neat, if and when the computer version comes out. If they could track the statistics, of what characters win the most, and how many were playing. I HOPE when the computer version comes out, that they allow for many players if you wish. It would ROCK to actually play a 14 player game. Being on line would give you that ability to try 14, or 10, or whatever, rather than limiting it to 6, or worse 4 players only.

talismanamsilat wrote:Monk:

Ability 1: You may use your Craft instead of your Strength whenever you are in Combat.

This means the Monk may use his 'faith' when fighting instead of physical force.

Can you players please play-test the Monk as above and give some feedback.

Ell.

Oh sheesh not back to the Monk arguments again. Keep in mind PHYSICAL COMBAT = STRENGTH BASED COMBAT, I'm trying to clarify this term for the Newbies

Arguements

1- Monk adds *ALL* Craft to *ALL* Strength in Physical Combat = Monk OVERLY Powerful. Due to whatever attribute he gains, he can add that to his Physical Combat score.

*Or*

2- Monk adds *BASE* Craft to *ALL* Strength in Physical Combat (Base being 'Natural Craft, no craft additions from Objects or Followers) = Monk still very powerful, but not nearly as powerful as #1.

*Or*

3- Monk adds his *STARTING* Craft to *ALL* Strength in Physical Combat. This brings the Monk more in line (IMHO) as its an automatic and always a +3 to Physical combat. Which equates to the Monk starting out of the box with a 5, the only character starting out with a higher physical strength would be the Troll.

*Or*

4- Elliotts new suggestion for the Monk to use EITHER his CRAFT or his STRENGTH in Physical Combat. This is definately an interesting twist. But personally I'd rather see:

*Or*

5- The Monk Designate at the beginning of the game, if he is going to use his Strength vs Strength or if he is going to use Craft vs Strength in Combat. If you think about it, the Monk 'studies' one or more of the fighting arts, which doesnt mean 'Stronger is always better'

Now as far as *YOU* Players.... I feel this statement is very condesending, and would recommend instead. 'How about *WE* all play test the different options and report back our findings here so that maybe FFG might make a change to the Errata.'

Oh I'm sorry,

'I'm just a player'

pssst *WE* are all 'Just Players'

On the topic of character power, and number of players in general, I would say that in a 2-player game the Assassin, Ghoul, and Thief are seriously at the bottom of that power scale. I played a 2-player game yesterday where I was the Ghoul against a Prophetess. It wasn't even a competition. Prophetess drew a Raiders card, discard, got something better. I drew a Demon, lost a life. Prophetess landed on an already-drawn dragon, lost a life but cast Preservation. I attack the Prophetess to try to steal a life but lost in psychic combat. Prophetess draws the Runesword, discard as I look on teary-eyed. I gain a life back in the Graveyard, Prophetess casts Random on me and saps me of 2 Strength.

At one point the Prophetess had to leave the Orb of Knowledge upturned on the board cuz she drew it while a toad. I managed to grab it a few turns later, but it was too late to turn back the tide. She had the Holy Lance, a constant stream of spells, the Unicorn, the Maiden, the Mercenary, and the Gnome, among others...

I think that the always-has-a-spell power is probably the best character power in the game. The discard-an-adventure-card is probably one of the handful of second-best powers in the game. With that combination, the Prophetess is gonna remain tough to ever beat.

Ghoul..Dont underestimate!

Sounds more like your loss was due to the Cards rather than the Ghoul.

You could say you lost, because your opponent was the prophet! not becasue you were the Ghoul.

1) He can attack in both Craft and Strength. VERY important when chasing someone up the middle.

2) Taking a characters life, and gaining one, again is VERY improtant when its a head to head battle in the crown of command. This way each character is not just cutting down 1 life from each other. For you its a double Whammy! They hurt you heal.

3) Raising the dead. Any other character needs to kill 7 wild boars to gain 1 strength. The ghoul gains 1 strength per boar! by keeping them in reserve. Trust me.. You are not going to be happy on the crown, watching the ghoul come after you with 2 Dragons, a Giant, and 2 Ogres as followers! and even if you have the strength, if he has a good craft, you will get hit that way!

Give me the Ghoul any Day! 2 player or 6 player!

HallowKnight wrote:Ghoul..Dont underestimate!

Sounds more like your loss was due to the Cards rather than the Ghoul.

You could say you lost, because your opponent was the prophet! not becasue you were the Ghoul.

1) He can attack in both Craft and Strength. VERY important when chasing someone up the middle.

2) Taking a characters life, and gaining one, again is VERY improtant when its a head to head battle in the crown of command. This way each character is not just cutting down 1 life from each other. For you its a double Whammy! They hurt you heal.

3) Raising the dead. Any other character needs to kill 7 wild boars to gain 1 strength. The ghoul gains 1 strength per boar! by keeping them in reserve. Trust me.. You are not going to be happy on the crown, watching the ghoul come after you with 2 Dragons, a Giant, and 2 Ogres as followers! and even if you have the strength, if he has a good craft, you will get hit that way!

Give me the Ghoul any Day! 2 player or 6 player!

I am SO not sold on the ghoul. Okay, so a ghoul's comin' after me with 2 dragons, a giant, and 2 ogres. If he had simply exchanged those cards for strength points he'd be an additional HALF A DRAGON in power permanently! As it is, with a crew of followers and no stat development, I sure hope he can even manage to open the Portal of Power with that starting 2 strenght/4 craft--something I was unable to do when I made my last-gasp effort to chase down my prophetess opponent.

And yeah I got my butt kicked on Adventure cards, but that's because it was the Prophetess! She was burning through them almost twice as quick as me, discarding everything from Raiders to Runeswords! My draws weren't so bad actually, it's just that she was able to discard so many things. All things considered, her "luck" wasn't so good at all. She got toaded by the Enchantress, she drew the Raiders (discard), and I'm pretty sure she drew another card or two of ill consequences. The only really, really nasty card I drew was the Demon.

I agree that, had my opponent been anything other than the Prophetess, I'd have stood a better chance. Along with maybe the Elf, the Prophetess seems to clearly be the most powerful character in the game. But I think that the Ghoul is going to be at a disadvantage against any craft-based character. I draw my character cards randomly for each game, so next time I draw the Ghoul I'll make another honest effort with him. But if I'm up against a craft-based opponent, my hopes are not high.

When playing the Ghoul Character you are only supposed to raise a couple of Enemies from the dead, just as a defence from another Character's attack. You should be concentrating on increasing your Craft.

Ell.

The point raised by Oski is what makes the Ghoul ineffective. He can have an army of undead servants, but to build it he must be strong. He must kill weak creatures, raise them, kill a bigger creature, raise it, and so on. The limit of only one creature per Combat is discouraging, because he needs to progress gradually and gradually sacrificing creatures. He cannot kill a Boar and a Goblin and use them both to kill a Dragon (perhaps with the aid of a Sword). He must have at least an Ogre at his side.

The need to increase at least one stat (Craft is the preferred one, because of the very useful Psychic Combat with Life Drain) will stop the extreme use of the Raise dead ability, which has little importance. At least a 2 player game should grant more creatures to kill. It is very effective if the other player has some problems to increase his Strength (Priest, Minstrel, Wizard); on the other side, the Psychic Combat should treaten a Strength-based Character (Warrior, Troll, Monk, Assassin). The Ghoul has some problems with Characters that have certain special abilities (Sorceress, Thief) and if there are many players. If the board is crowded the Ghoul cannot gain very much Craft.

The Prophetess is the dream Character for one-on-one games. In this situation her abilities work perfectly and she really masters the game. She can discard something she doesn't want to encounter, but with less card drawing it's likely that all the bad cards come to the opponent. In 5-6 player games, the benefit is less significant because many cards are drawn each round and if the Sorceress prevents her disgraces, she prevents also the disgraces of others.

Oski wrote:

I am SO not sold on the ghoul. Okay, so a ghoul's comin' after me with 2 dragons, a giant, and 2 ogres. If he had simply exchanged those cards for strength points he'd be an additional HALF A DRAGON in power permanently! As it is, with a crew of followers and no stat development, I sure hope he can even manage to open the Portal of Power with that starting 2 strenght/4 craft--something I was unable to do when I made my last-gasp effort to chase down my prophetess opponent.
quote]

Ok ok, this is a little extreem. I did not mean for the Ghoul to ONLY raise the characters he defeats and gain NO strength. This is not what I had intended.

You are playing the game as normal.. Perhapse only raising one Hobgoblin, just to help in battle if you are underpowerd and on your last life, and dont want to loose.

If someone is dashing for the center, you will not have time to cash in kills for strength. At that time is when you want to do more raising. When you reach the center, it is usually the first attacks by each player that is going to decide who will win the battle. This is where your two LARGE raised creatures will be a Huge benifit. You attack with one of them and win. +1 life, -1 life. They attacks you and they loose, because you used your other big ally. +1 life, -1 life. They are now at 2 lives, and you are at 6. Its almost game over at this point.

HallowKnight wrote:Ok ok, this is a little extreem. I did not mean for the Ghoul to ONLY raise the characters he defeats and gain NO strength. This is not what I had intended.

You are playing the game as normal.. Perhapse only raising one Hobgoblin, just to help in battle if you are underpowerd and on your last life, and dont want to loose.

If someone is dashing for the center, you will not have time to cash in kills for strength. At that time is when you want to do more raising. When you reach the center, it is usually the first attacks by each player that is going to decide who will win the battle. This is where your two LARGE raised creatures will be a Huge benifit. You attack with one of them and win. +1 life, -1 life. They attacks you and they loose, because you used your other big ally. +1 life, -1 life. They are now at 2 lives, and you are at 6. Its almost game over at this point.

If I'm not mistaken, the Ghoul card says that he gains a life in Psychic Combat, not in regular combat.

Whenever you defeat a Character in Psychic Combat, if you choose to take one of their Lives, you add it to your own.

Meaning that he can drag all that ressurected help into his strength battles for a maybe-win, but he won't gain any lives for winning those battles.

Edit: fixed a typo.

Edit x2: fixed a misspelled word. Wow, this could go on for a while...

Maybe he means the oft mentioned "Ghoul with Runesword" power combination.

talismanisland wrote:Maybe he means the oft mentioned "Ghoul with Runesword" power combination.

Meh, granted, the Ghoul with the best weapon in the game becomes a half-decent character. I spent several sad seconds looking at the discard pile when the Prophetess killed THAT card on me.

In the case of Ghoul-with-a-Runesword, however, he is not using Psychic Combat, nor is he using the actual Ghoul power to steal lives. He is using one of the three Ghoul powers--the resurection of a slain enemy--and that's it. And overall, you're going to be better off as a Troll with a Runesword than a Ghoul with a Runesword. The extra +4 comparative strength that the Troll starts right off with will more than compensate some enemy card the Ghoul's been carrying around with him at the cost of much-needed Strength stat enhancement.

Opps, my Error!

I thought the Ghoul could take a life as his own in regular combat (man I wish two different words were used to discribe those two!!!)

Ok, the life spread would not be that far. However the center battle is still usually decided after the first 2 fights.