The Researcher and Gate Bursts

I was wondering!... It suddenly struck me by being my usual self and walking down the street thinking random stuff. What if there is a Elder Sign in a location, also in the same location happens to be The Scientist (gates and monsters cannot appear on her), and in the Mythos Phase there would happen to be a gate burst in the same location?!. What would happen ?

I'd also want to point out my opinion would be that the Elder Sign would not burst since, there would be no gate to burst it, in the first place, because her invention stops gates from appearing, so there would be no GATE in GATE BURST. O.o

Also while talking about this I also realized what happens when I pull the "A horrible monster appears!" encounter card on the Scientist. Does he appear anymore?

k thx

StarBurn wrote:I was wondering!... It suddenly struck me by being my usual self and walking down the street thinking random stuff. What if there is a Elder Sign in a location, also in the same location happens to be The Researcher (gates and monsters cannot appear on her), and in the Mythos Phase there would happen to be a gate burst in the same location?!. What would happen ?

I'd also want to point out my opinion would be that the Elder Sign would not burst since, there would be no gate to burst it, in the first place, because her invention stops gates from appearing, so there would be no GATE in GATE BURST. O.o

Also while talking about this I also realized what happens when I pull the "A horrible monster appears!" encounter card on the Researcher. Does he appear anymore?

k thx

I think you mean the Scientist (Kate). The Researcher (Mandy) is the investigator that gives a skill check reroll, not the one that prevents gates appearing.

I'm pretty sure your question has been discussed before, but I can't recall what the consensus answer was or if there was an official response.

- Mariana the ex-nun cultist

Meh, as I said I was on the street, couldn't check up...but ye The Scientist.

StarBurn wrote:Also while talking about this I also realized what happens when I pull the "A horrible monster appears!" encounter card on the Scientist. Does he appear anymore?

It still appears. "Horrible" is just there for artistic effect. "A monster appears, pouring out of the shadows" may not say "A monster appears!" verbatim, but the effect is exactly the same.

You may rather ask what happens when a monster appears in the Outer World. I think her invention's purpose is to stop creatures and events from tearing through the fabric of space. Why should this stop monsters from attacking her who are in the same dimension as she is currently? On the other hand, maybe for monsters, the invention serves to warn her when one is approaching, thus she can avoid it entirely.

tibs wrote:

StarBurn wrote:Also while talking about this I also realized what happens when I pull the "A horrible monster appears!" encounter card on the Scientist. Does he appear anymore?

It still appears. "Horrible" is just there for artistic effect. "A monster appears, pouring out of the shadows" may not say "A monster appears!" verbatim, but the effect is exactly the same.

You may rather ask what happens when a monster appears in the Outer World. I think her invention's purpose is to stop creatures and events from tearing through the fabric of space. Why should this stop monsters from attacking her who are in the same dimension as she is currently? On the other hand, maybe for monsters, the invention serves to warn her when one is approaching, thus she can avoid it entirely.

I would disagree. Her flux capacitor effect (or whatever it is called) keeps gates from appearing (thus the gate burst will not happen) as well as keeping monsters from appearing in the scientist's location. It does not stop movement of monsters that are already on the board from moving to her normally.

Nghtflame7 wrote:I would disagree. Her flux capacitor effect (or whatever it is called) keeps gates from appearing (thus the gate burst will not happen) as well as keeping monsters from appearing in the scientist's location. It does not stop movement of monsters that are already on the board from moving to her normally.

I don't know what you disagree about. I know that monsters that are on the board can still enter her location normally. I'm just saying that the text "A horrible monster appears!" is the same as "A monster appears!" for purposes of knowing when the monster is prevented from appearing during an Arkham Encounter. I'm also speculating over whether she can stop such monster encounters when in an Outer World.

edited for space

tibs wrote:

Nghtflame7 wrote:

tibs wrote:

StarBurn wrote:Also while talking about this I also realized what happens when I pull the "A horrible monster appears!" encounter card on the Scientist. Does he appear anymore?

It still appears. "Horrible" is just there for artistic effect. "A monster appears, pouring out of the shadows" may not say "A monster appears!" verbatim, but the effect is exactly the same.

You may rather ask what happens when a monster appears in the Outer World. I think her invention's purpose is to stop creatures and events from tearing through the fabric of space. Why should this stop monsters from attacking her who are in the same dimension as she is currently? On the other hand, maybe for monsters, the invention serves to warn her when one is approaching, thus she can avoid it entirely.

I would disagree. Her flux capacitor effect (or whatever it is called) keeps gates from appearing (thus the gate burst will not happen) as well as keeping monsters from appearing in the scientist's location. It does not stop movement of monsters that are already on the board from moving to her normally.

I don't know what you disagree about. I know that monsters that are on the board can still enter her location normally. I'm just saying that the text "A horrible monster appears!" is the same as "A monster appears!" for purposes of knowing when the monster is prevented from appearing during an Arkham Encounter. I'm also speculating over whether she can stop such monster encounters when in an Outer World.

Tibs, your original answer confused me too. You appear to be saying one thing (the monster appears) but your overall context appears to imply that you think the the opposite (that the flux thingmy prevents this). I might be mis-reading however.

- Mariana the ex-nun cultist

It's all right. It's early here, and I haven't had my coffee yet.

My summary points:

• Variations on the wording for "A monster appears!" still count. Her capacitor prevents these monsters from appearing during encounters. In all ways, she acts like a walking seal. (ORT ORT!)

• While in the Outer World, does she still prevent monsters from appearing? I don't know. The wording on her sheet is a bit vague and can be interpreted many ways. Maybe her device prevents rips in spacetime that would allow monsters to appear during encounters in town, rendering it useless when she's actually in the dimension where the monsters roam. On the other hand, it may merely light up when a monster is near, so that she can avoid the monster and is still not affected by "A monster appears!" when in the Outer World.

Flea Collar. Kate has a Monster "Flea Collar". No monster may "appear" (from the Cup) to her space, whatever "space" that may be. No Gate may appear on the Arkham space she occupies, therefore there would be NO Gate Burst and NO loss of Elder Sign.

Bottom Line: that Flux Thingamajigger is ALL Kate has. Trying to find ways around it, through it, under it, is kinda mean. In situations where it's Kate's Doohickey versus the Game, I say to find in favor of Kate's Deelybob every time.

Kate's ability is "Any Phase: Gates and monsters cannot appear in Kate’s location due to her flux stabilizer. [...]"*; Location means the following:

Locations are indicated by circular illustrations on the Arkham portion of the game board.

(page 6)

...but doesn't include Street Areas or Other World Areas, so from a strict rules perspective it's clear that her ability doesn't work in Other Worlds. There is a Summer League scenario which uses the term Location in a wrong way, but this can be disregarded, I guess. However, of course it's still possible that the designer's intention is that her ability applies to Other Worlds, but that is only speculation.

* I'm not sure if something important follows, but I think not

Regarding the initial question:

Kingsport rules page 8:

When that happens, the gate bursts open, causing the elder sign token to be removed from the board.

That means the Elder Sign is removed as a result of the gate that bursts open; but since no gate can open in Kate's location, the requirement isn't given, and the Elder Sign stays on the board.

However, flyer movement is not affected by Kate, as it suffices to draw a gate burst card for that matter.

HÃ«llRÃ†ZÃ˜R wrote:Kate's ability is "Any Phase: Gates and monsters cannot appear in Kate’s location due to her flux stabilizer. [...]"*; Location means the following:

Locations are indicated by circular illustrations on the Arkham portion of the game board.

(page 6)

...but doesn't include Street Areas or Other World Areas, so from a strict rules perspective it's clear that her ability doesn't work in Other Worlds. There is a Summer League scenario which uses the term Location in a wrong way, but this can be disregarded, I guess. However, of course it's still possible that the designer's intention is that her ability applies to Other Worlds, but that is only speculation.

* I'm not sure if something important follows, but I think not

Well wait a minute. While from a strict interpretation that seems sound, we can assume that they are using the term "Location" correctly, but maybe they're not? Wilson Richards's ability can only be used in Arkham locations, but his sheet goes on to redundantly clarify that it does not work on the streets or in the Other Worlds. Did the designers just choose clarify so that the expansion characters were less ambiguous, or does "Location" on Kate's sheet really mean Arkham OR Other World location?

I largely agree on your conclusion, but I'm just throwing this out there for the Arkham Philosophers to consider.

While I know I am in the minority here and playing the devils advocate, I thought I would chime in on this.

It is my belief that in this situation, the Elder sign does get removed, but no gate or monster appear. The reason I think this is that no where does it state that the gate opening is what bursts the elder sign. This is a thematic assumption being made. The mythos card has the gate location in Orange and this is what burst the seal, not the gate itself. Who says there isnt some power surge that breaks the seal, then allowing a gate to open? Also, isnt there some other events in the game that can cause a seal to be removed without a gate opening?

Her ability says only that gates and monsters can not appear in her location, not that she can stop the seal from being broken.

Anyway, like I said, this is simply my opinion.

As for her ability to stop appearing monsters, at this point I would have to play it as including OW just for continuitys sake, for the fact that as the previous poster pointed out, other abilities, explicitly define what locations are afftected, while hers does not. Again, I know this is a bit contradictory when compared to my above statements, but otherwise, why would it work in only specific places? OW areas are Locations after all or it should say only in Arkham locations or something to that effect.

Bravo McWilley wrote:While I know I am in the minority here and playing the devils advocate, I thought I would chime in on this.

It is my belief that in this situation, the Elder sign does get removed, but no gate or monster appear. The reason I think this is that no where does it state that the gate opening is what bursts the elder sign. This is a thematic assumption being made. The mythos card has the gate location in Orange and this is what burst the seal, not the gate itself. Who says there isnt some power surge that breaks the seal, then allowing a gate to open? Also, isnt there some other events in the game that can cause a seal to be removed without a gate opening?

If it's not the opening of a gate that's blowing the seal, then what is? For "Gate Burst" cards, the removal of a seal and the opening of a new gate always coincide. Perhaps because there is a causal relationship?

Of course, that's not at all to say that seals are ONLY removed by gates:
• Failing the Good Work Undone rumor
• Act II
• The Dean blight

Kate certainly can't prevent the removal of seals for these cases. But it's a safe conclusion so say that that's because for each, it's not a gate responsible for removing the seal.

tibs wrote:

HÃ«llRÃ†ZÃ˜R wrote:Kate's ability is "Any Phase: Gates and monsters cannot appear in Kate’s location due to her flux stabilizer. [...]"*; Location means the following...

Well wait a minute. While from a strict interpretation that seems sound, we can assume that they are using the term "Location" correctly, but maybe they're not?

I think that this is another case that should be chalked up to the imprecise use of language that peppers FFG rulebooks. I don't quite believe that the use of the word "location" (as the space she is in) was intended to mean "Location" (as in areas with circular illustrations). It might, but I wouldn't play it that way.

For the Streets, I'd make a decision based on theme. For example, there's a Mythos card that dumps monsters into the streets from a newly-docked ship. I'd allow the placement of monsters in a case like this. I'd deny it in any case where monsters were showing up via any means other than mundane transport.

I'm not sure about the OWs, since I don't know enough about the Mythos itself to make a thematic decision. Are the monsters already there, and Kate is stumbling upon them? Then it's not reasonable to limit their appearance. On the other hand, isn't it possible that monsters could just appear due to fluxes in the OWs themselves, i.e. monsters are appearing in one OW from another OW? Any Mythos experts want to help out with this?

As for Elder Signs, I would not let a gate burst break a seal.

[edit]Aw crud. Yeah, what Bullwinkle said.

tibs wrote:

Nghtflame7 wrote:I would disagree. Her flux capacitor effect (or whatever it is called) keeps gates from appearing (thus the gate burst will not happen) as well as keeping monsters from appearing in the scientist's location. It does not stop movement of monsters that are already on the board from moving to her normally.

I don't know what you disagree about. I know that monsters that are on the board can still enter her location normally. I'm just saying that the text "A horrible monster appears!" is the same as "A monster appears!" for purposes of knowing when the monster is prevented from appearing during an Arkham Encounter. I'm also speculating over whether she can stop such monster encounters when in an Outer World.

edited for space

My apologies. I thought you meant that her ability did not prevent the monster from appearing when called for by an encounter. I don't think her ability works when in Other Worlds, as the investigator card specifically refers to a "location" and the rules only use that term in Arkham. They are specific about referring to other worlds simply as "Other Worlds."

Okay...not that I've had enough or anything...but...

AH FAQ 1.2, Page 5, Miscellaneous:

Q: Exactly where, when and what can investigators trade?
A: Investigators may trade any time they are in the same location except during combat. They may trade before, during or after movement, which means trading does not end a move.
(Bolding is mine for emphasis.)

So...to everyone so willing to compromise Kate's ability...are you telling me that you don't ever trade in the Streets? That you only trade in "Locations"? Because there is NO WAY I will ever believe that THIS "location" means "Circular Arkham Board Spaces". Perhaps THIS makes it clear that Kate's "location" merely means "wherever she is located".

Otherwise, I expect all of us to stop trading in the Streets immediately.

I searched for all instances of the keyword "location" in the AH rules, and it's more than clear that this term excludes Street areas and Other World areas (there is no "Other World location"), and just refers to round spaces in Arkham (this is said about 3 times).

Furthermore, there's a rules passage which emphasizes that location is different from the other 2:

During the Arkham Encounters Phase, each player
whose investigator is in a location (not a street area or
Other World area) must take one of the following
actions.

(page 8 )

...I agree that "location" may just indicate where Kate currently is, and not refer to the term location, but then it's bad wording.

The clarification for trading in the F.A.Q. seems a bit sloppy, here's what the rules say:

An investigator in the same street area, Other World
area, or location as another investigator may trade
money, Common Items, Unique Items, and Spells.[...]

(page 23)

So...the FAQ is "bad wording"...but Kate's Investigator sheet is not?

That's it. I give.

jgt7771 wrote:So...the FAQ is "bad wording"...but Kate's Investigator sheet is not?

That's it. I give.

I never said "is" (at least not without a condition).

I said Kate's special ability isn't worded too well if location isn't used in the way it was defined in the rules.

...and I said the FAQ "seems" to be worded sloppy (not "is"). I highly assume that trading is possible in all areas (not only in locations), and if my assumption is correct I'd say the FAQ is worded a bit sloppy, yes.

Well, after reconsidering what I said, I came to the conclusion that I was probably wrong: While location might be a defined term, asking for someone's location could be undefined if we claim that it necessarily has to be a location (-> round space in city portion of Arkham). Thus, someone's location is probably where someone is, even if it's not a location.
(I suppose that sounds trivial and paradox at the same time ^^)

I guess if Kate's ability would be limited to locations, the text would be "If Kate is in a location, neither a gate nor monsters may appear there". But the way it's worded, I rather guess that neither gates nor monsters cannot appear wherever she is.

...and yeah, I know I'm confusing, and I cannot assure if I'll stick to my current opinion.

This turned out to be a harder question to crack than I thought, well so conclusions:

...for me at least XD

Kate stops a seal from being destroyed.

and does stop monsters from locations card ?!

I just simply dont allow monsters to appear where The scientist is. I dont think "Location" in this case has nothing to do with "circle places on the board". No monsters would they come from an encounter, gates or mythos cards.

It doesnt make her too strong (compared to other inv's ability, dont forget we have absolutely no control on hers) and everytime she prevents something ugly to arrive, it's a good time for everyone. I've played her a few time this way and it's working like a dream. Science !

@Bullwinkle : I agree with you on the docked ship exemple but I prefer clear rules over a realism that would complicate the game and add a lot of exceptions.

HÃ«llRÃ†ZÃ˜R wrote:I searched for all instances of the keyword "location" in the AH rules, and it's more than clear that this term excludes Street areas and Other World areas (there is no "Other World location"), and just refers to round spaces in Arkham (this is said about 3 times).

Furthermore, there's a rules passage which emphasizes that location is different from the other 2:

During the Arkham Encounters Phase, each player
whose investigator is in a location (not a street area or
Other World area) must take one of the following
actions.

For those arguing that Kate's term "location" is only for "arkham locations" then I direct you to Gloria Goldberg's special ability. If "location" only means "arkham location" then her ability can never be used.

This was sloppy editing and "location" in this instance means "physical space." An unfortunate oversight since the fact that "location" is a "defined" game term and is meant to be one specific type of space on the board.

But this has been a debate and open question ever since I have been on these boards. Someday Kevin may answer it and we can put this baby to bed once and for all.