Slaunyeh wrote:What does the astartes bolter do? 2d10? Vs. 1d10+5, that should be lower minimum damage, but with a slightly better average, higher spike damage and double chance of righteous fury.

Sounds good to me.

Lynata wrote:...

I'd buy the lower minimum damage and a higher maximum damage as being the result of simply an individual boltgun pattern, but not something that is limited to the Marines alone.

Lynata wrote:Just like the Munitorum Manual tells us.

I'd buy the lower minimum damage and a higher maximum damage as being the result of simply an individual boltgun pattern, but not something that is limited to the Marines alone.

N0-1_H3r3 wrote:I had something of a minor epiphany earlier today, about five minutes after I left the house this morning. I've been thinking about it ever since, simply to keep it on my mind so that I didn't forget before I could post it.

There's a third way to interpret all of this background. It takes a little bit of narrative jury-rigging, but it works.

We know that Astartes bolters are larger than those able to be wielded by humans - rough estimates based on the one carried by the Brother-Captain Artemis model, and the weight listed in the DH rulebook (proportionately increased), would place an Astartes bolter as being nearly 4 feet/1.2m long and weighing approximately 66lbs/30 kilos.

We know that Astartes-standard Bolter Shells are restricted in availability - just how restricted is a matter of some debate, as we all know, but we can all agree that they're not readily available to just anyone.

What might have been overlooked is that not all Astartes bolter shells are the same...

The Horus Heresy: False Gods, by Graham McNeill, Chapter 5, page 89 wrote:The thought soured his anticipation of battle as they made their way to where Aximand and Abaddon checked the arms inventory of their Stormbird, arguing over which munitions would be best suited to the mission.

'I'm telling you, the subsonic shells will be better,' said Aximand.

'And what if they have armour like those Interex bastards?' demanded Abaddon.

'Then we use mass reactive. Tell him, Loken!'

Abaddon turned at Loken and Torgaddon's approach and nodded curtly.

'Aximand's right,' Loken said. 'Supersonic shells will pass through a man before they have time to flatten and create a killing exit wound. You might fire three of these through a target and still not put him down.'

'Just because the last few fights have been against armoured warriors, Ezekyle wants them,' said Aximand, 'but I keep telling him that this battle will be fought against men no more armoured than our own Army soldiers.

Emphasis mine, to point out the pertinent bits of the quote.

Quite clearly there are different configurations of bolter shell, useful for different situations. The two most pertinent mentioned here (I'll ignore the mention of 'mass reactive', as all bolter shells are supposed to be mass reactive) are Subsonic and Supersonic, presumably referring to the shell's velocity at some point during its journey between gun and target - whether this is muzzle velocity, impact velocity, or something else, is as yet unknown.

What is known, to a limited extent, is their performance. Supersonic shells appear more practical against armoured targets, but with a risk of travelling so fast that they go straight through without detonating. Subsonic shells, then, must be more useful against comparatively lightly-armoured targets.

Which got me thinking. We've got three sets of bolter shell stats (the damage and pen from various bolter weapons) - 1d10+5 X, Pen 4 (standard 'mortal' bolter shell), 1d10+6 X, Pen 4 (used on the Sacristan Bolt Pistol, a high-potency weapon based on the Godwyn-De'az patterns of bolter and bolt pistol, used by Inquisitors; needs an SB of 4+ to wield a weapon using these shells effectively), and 2d10 X, Pen 5 (Astartes bolter shells)... except, those definitions don't really work.

1d10+6 is comparable to 2d10 in terms of damage caused - 2d10 has a higher maximum, but 1d10+6 has a higher minimum, and both generally deal the same range of damage to enemies.

What if, then, the 2d10 X, Pen 5 bolter shells used by the Astartes are 'Supersonic' shells - high-velocity shells designed to rip through tough and/or armoured targets, but with a risk of over-penetration that robs them of most of their potency. A supersonic round would need more powerful propellant to accelerate the shell to the desired velocity, which would in turn put strain on the gun, meaning you'd need a sturdy, reliable weapon to use such shells regularly...

Logically, then, the 1d10+6 X, Pen 4 rounds could be Subsonic - not quite as effective against armoured foes, but much more likely to guarantee lethal shots against unarmoured foes. The 1d10+5 X, Pen 4 rounds can then be a lower-grade 'mundane' round. The Subsonic shell is still more potent than 'mundane' bolter shells, but has a more punishing recoil - something of a non-issue for power-armoured warriors of any kind.


With that in mind, it changes a few things.

The rounds are no longer exclusive, but there are reasons for the preferences.

An Astartes bolter is a monstrous weapon, designed to take the same kind of punishment as the wielder... such a weapon could easily withstand the increased stresses put on it by a Supersonic shell. Given that the Astartes are commonly thrown into situations where the enemy is large, tough and/or well-armoured, it makes sense for Supersonic rounds to be more commonly issued... yet they may still use the Subsonic rounds preferred by the Sororitas.

The Godwyn-De'az pattern Bolter (including any and all variants and derivatives) is, logically speaking, a human-sized adaptation of the Godwyn-pattern Bolter used by many Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes, and thus a superlative weapon in its own right - a weapon crafted to the most precise tolerances, and of the highest standards. The fact that its components are smaller makes it slightly less robust than the utterly massive bolters of the Astartes upon which it is based, but it is still a sturdy, reliable and solidly-built weapon. The pressures exerted upon the Godwyn-De'az by Supersonic shells make the weapon slightly less reliable, requiring greater maintenance if such rounds are used regularly. Beyond that, however, most of the adversaries a Sororitas force will encounter will be far less armoured - a simple fact of being called upon to quell seditious uprisings and butcher legions of poorly-equipped heretics, meaning that the Subsonic round is more practical anyway, especially as the recoil produced when firing such shells is easily compensated for by the augmented strength of even the weakest Sister Militant. They can still use Supersonic rounds, but choose not to, both for tactical reasons, and for logistical ones, though I imagine that some Sisters Militant may be willing to accept the greater maintenance requirements in exchange for the better penetration of the Supersonic rounds.

All other bolters... well, they can stick to the less effective, proportionately lower-quality 'mundane' shells.

'Astartes' bolt shells are those earmarked for the Astartes. The Adepta Sororitas would receive their shells from another source, though the shells themselves would be largely identical in function.

There... nice and easy.

In mechanical terms, it takes a little minor house-ruling:

Supersonic rounds deal 2d10 X damage, with a Pen of 5 and the Tearing quality, irrespective of the weapon they are loaded into. Any weapon loaded with Supersonic rounds suffers a -10 penalty on BS tests unless the firer is SB 4 or more, due to punishing recoil.

Subsonic rounds deal 1d10+6 X damage, with a Pen of 4 and the Tearing quality, irrespective of the weapon they are loaded into. Any weapon loaded with Subsonic rounds suffers a -10 penalty on BS tests unless the firer is SB 4 or more, due to punishing recoil.

Mundane rounds deal 1d10+5 X damage, with a Pen of 4 and the Tearing quality, irrespective of the weapon they are loaded into. Mundane bolt rounds impose no penalty due to recoil - the shells mass slightly less and are easier to manage.

Astartes bolters* (all of which should be Reliable) can use Supersonic or Subsonic rounds without any additional penalty or difficulty whatsoever. Astartes bolt pistols count as Basic weapons when wielded by anyone with a SB of less than 6, while Astartes bolters and stormbolters count as Heavy weapons when wielded by anyone with a SB of less than 6.

Sororitas bolters* (all of which should be Reliable), can use Subsonic rounds without any additional penalty, or Supersonic rounds at the cost of losing the Reliable quality. Good Quality Sororitas bolters* ignore this additional penalty.

Mortal bolters* can use Subsonic rounds without any additional penalty, but gain the Unreliable quality when used with Supersonic rounds (or lose the Reliable quality if they were Reliable before).

The Sororitas bolters are slightly inferior to those of the Astartes, but this is a reflection of the difference in size (smaller components are inherently more fragile, simply because they mass less, are thinner, etc) rather than any deliberate flaw in the design.

*In these instances, 'bolters' refers to all Bolt Pistols, Bolters and Stormbolters.

Rambling attempt at compromise over... I hope that made sense...

Cypher wrote:Then might it be safe to assume that 'Astartes Bolters' are the individual pattern made avalible to Marine Chapters?

N0-1_H3r3 wrote:The Munitorium manual is clearly propaganda in a number of areas.

Lynata wrote:Not only to the Marines. The Mars-Gamma for example is actually a boltgun pattern that has been shipped to both the Astartes and the Sisterhood.

Maybe, but until Dark Heresy came up with this new claim of "civilian bolters" (wtf), there was just one category of boltguns only in every piece of fluff.

That said, I still like the solution you have given in your posting. It somehow bridges the gap between DH's odd claims and the known 40k fluff. Kudos to your work.

N0-1_H3r3 wrote:A claim which we know to be problematic, given the sheer size of Astartes bolters - as large and strong as a fully-armoured Sister Militant is, she isn't as big or strong as an Astartes in full armour.

BloodAngelAzrael wrote:WTF?! this is now another " Astartes Bolter topic " lol,
but I changed my mind, it seems good now.

aethel wrote
Only since you asked, I do not consider Space Marines appropriate for a group of acolytes and would never allow it. Sorry. But your continued dedication to improving your work product and providing it to the many people who do want space marines as PC's in their campaign is admirable.

llsoth wrote:
What he said.

aethel wrote


llsoth wrote:
What he said.


She

Lynata wrote:This theory doesn't work though, since Marine Scouts use the same boltguns without power armor.

PS: Sisters don't use only the Godwyn-De'az, but also other patterns such as the Mars-Gamma or the Scourge-MKII. I'm sure there are even more models in circulation. But the Godwyn-De'az is indeed the most esteemed one, apparently.

Lynata wrote: Marines are larger than Sisters, but regardless of how bulky their bodies are ... do their hands alone really differ that much from a Sister's hands that both would be incompatible to each other's weapons?

ThePatriot wrote:

@Blood Angel Azrael: How well does the Marines stack up in the party and the npcs in all situations? Is this a mixed game or an all Marine game? How does the damage work from the standard weapons in comparison to the Marine TB? I'll have more questions later.

DocIII wrote:

Lynata wrote: Marines are larger than Sisters, but regardless of how bulky their bodies are ... do their hands alone really differ that much from a Sister's hands that both would be incompatible to each other's weapons?

I'd have to say yes. On the average men's hands are significantly larger than women's.

Hand size can drastically effect one's ability to use firearms. For example the Mark XIX Desert Eagle has a grip wide enough to be uncomfortable for many people to use (including smaller handed men). This makes it more difficult to hold and thus affects use.

This is just in the area of actual real world pistols, and normal humans.

Further, there used to be an promotional display in athletic shoe stores that included a basketball with Michael Jordan's handprint on it (when Air Jordan sneakers were the height of fashion). His hand dwarfed those of most adult males I have ever met, and Jordan, basketball legend or not, just isn't a space marine.

On the side of marines using sister's weapons. My mom used to have a .22 automatic that I would have trouble using due to how compartively tiny it was, and my hands are on the smallish side of average.

Lord Kruge wrote: Well to try to answer that question with a straight face, there would have to be some form of internal consistency checking at Black Library. Ask MadAlfred. There isn't.