The worst of the worse

28th: Amanda Sharpe, the Student
29th: Gloria Goldberg, the Author
30th: Monterey Jack, the Archaeologist
31st: Vincent Lee, the Physician
32nd: Dexter Drake, the Magician

Now that we've picked the first investigators to throw off the island, I am wonder what little, simple, tweak would you use to bring them up to average?

I've already created a MOTHER Mary, from Strange Eons, that is an older wiser sister Mary who doesn't have to roll for her Blessing.

And a MINDY Thompson, Mandy's dumber twin sister. Her re-roll only works in Arkham and its only a normal re-roll, not just failures. (Trying to bring her down to almost average).

I'd create a magical device which makes people see all the options/sides a single character has, instead of only glancing at one aspect and chop her/him down screaming bloody murder.

Then I'd open up a thread on the philosophical implications of making people think like me.

...in short, I see nothing wrong with that particular batch.

(Sorry, couldn't keep myself from commenting *grumbles and walks off*)

Victimizer wrote:...in short, I see nothing wrong with that particular batch.

Me either, for the most part. In fact, the doctor is one of my favorites. I use him as a fighter guy usually. $9 and replaceable stamina seems fine to me.

But apparently others do. In my group, we choose our characters before we know the GOO. They've all been chosen multiple times. In fact, Monteray Jack is one of my groups favorite investigators.

The one that never gets chosen is Sister Mary. Lola has a really bad rep. We pretty much stir away from Dexter, too. Mandy gets more than her share. I try to discourage it for "competition" but most of my group think I'm an Arkham sadist.

But apparently others think they are weaker. I am hoping for a simple little tweak to make them more choosable. That's all.

mageith wrote:
28th: Amanda Sharpe, the Student
29th: Gloria Goldberg, the Author
30th: Monterey Jack, the Archaeologist
31st: Vincent Lee, the Physician
32nd: Dexter Drake, the Magician

Now that we've picked the first investigators to throw off the island, I am wonder what little, simple, tweak would you use to bring them up to average?

This is how I'd improve'em:

Amanda: a naked picture of her would do.

Gloria: though I don't particularly like her, I think her ability is just used as often as Darrel's.
For whiners, I'd allow to draw 2 extra OW cards instead of 1. I repeat, for whiners.

Monterey:
He's my favourite character, I love him.
A will of 4 would help, though.
(but -c'mon!- ALL investigators could use a Will of 4, or 6, wouldn't they?

)

Vincent:
A speed of 4 and I would play him.
I hate characters with speed of 3 and NEVER play'em (except for Carolyne and Jenny, they're damn funny)

Dexter:
Will of 4, and the plain spell-caster stats: 6 SAN and 4 STA.
I still like him a lot in the original version.

I have always played Mandy as re-roll ALL dice, never just failures....Thats way too powerful.

Amanda: a naked picture of her would do.

Hah! She is a student after all. Gotta earn that college money somehow!

Amanda: a naked picture of her would do.

I probably should've mention that Amanda looks a lot like my wife when I married her a few decades ago

Gloria: though I don't particularly like her, I think her ability is just used as often as Darrel's.
For winers, I'd allow to draw 2 extra OW cards instead of 1. I repeat, for winers.

Is that whiners or winners? or is that red winers or white winers?

I think the main complaint is not her getting through the OW but closing the gate.

Monterey:
He's my favourite character, I love him.
A will of 4 would help, though.
(but -c'mon!- ALL investigators could use a Will of 4, or 6, wouldn't they? )

What would you trade for that will?

Vincent:
A speed of 4 and I would play him.
I hate characters with speed of 3 and NEVER play'em (except for Carolyne and Jenny, they're damn funny)

He's a doctor, maybe he should have a car? Speed of three IS irritating. What would you trade for that speed?

Dexter:
Will of 4, and the plain spell-caster stats: 6 SAN and 4 STA.
I still like him a lot in the original version.

Sounds reasonable.

mageith wrote:

Amanda: a naked picture of her would do.

I probably should've mention that Amanda looks a lot like my wife when I married her a few decades ago

Gloria: though I don't particularly like her, I think her ability is just used as often as Darrel's.
For winers, I'd allow to draw 2 extra OW cards instead of 1. I repeat, for winers.

Is that whiners or winners? or is that red winers or white winers?
I think the main complaint is not her getting through the OW but closing the gate.

Monterey:
He's my favourite character, I love him.
A will of 4 would help, though.
(but -c'mon!- ALL investigators could use a Will of 4, or 6, wouldn't they? )

What would you trade for that will?

Vincent:
A speed of 4 and I would play him.
I hate characters with speed of 3 and NEVER play'em (except for Carolyne and Jenny, they're damn funny)

He's a doctor, maybe he should have a car? Speed of three IS irritating. What would you trade for that speed?

Dexter:
Will of 4, and the plain spell-caster stats: 6 SAN and 4 STA.
I still like him a lot in the original version.

Sounds reasonable.

Quick notes, I have a Q-Zar game in 10 minutes and AM late:

-> I meant WHINERS, thanks for correcting me

-> I'd trade that +1 Will for Monterey with anything else, though I'm fine with Will of 3 anyway.
Maybe a Sneak of 3?

I think that the biggest issue people have with the student is her lack of direction. That is to say she doesn't specialize automatically in gate closing, monster clearing, or even equipping the team with useful stuff. The two skills that you draw are supposed to help that since they are taken from a pool of three, but honestly is that going to reliably allow her to perform the roles that got left out of the team. After drawing those two skills you could have an awesome spell caster, monster killer, gate closer, or some one with +1 luck and the -1 sanity skill. I think that this could be corrected if she were given a skill that when at the administration she can trade one of her current skills for one off the top of the deck. This way you could shape her a little after her first two skills are drawn.

mageith wrote:

Amanda: a naked picture of her would do.

I probably should've mention that Amanda looks a lot like my wife when I married her a few decades ago

Given the direction this thread seems to be heading, you probably shouldn't mention it.

Speaking of naked pictures and taking a thread downhill, I wonder if anyone has ever found the Easter egg in Strange Eons...

Anyway, more-or-less on topic, it seems funny to me that the people who are giving suggestions are mostly of the "all the characters are good if you know how to play them" persuasion. Here's a catch-all house rule: any player who whines about his or her investigator before the start of the first Upkeep may take a Sheldon Gang Membership. It's not like you're ever going to get one of those from the Woods encounter, so you may as well use them for something.

The problem with Speed 3 characters is not that they exist, but that there are so few maps and motorcycles. Solution: increase global production of maps and motorcycles. Or, I dunno, add ten or twelve of these to the deck:

They keep the pedestrians out of your way when you're on important [Tasks and] Missions.

Cheers,
Chris

Nice ride, Thelric!!!

"I think that Gug futzed up the grill!" "I told you to slow down."

It's been fairly clear over the last few days that I'm not partial to low Will characters. Doesn't mean I won't play them. I have never not had fun playing Monterey or Gloria. I've always been able to turn Vincent into a fighter or a Spellcaster, and to compensate for his Speed. I generally have loads of fun playing Dexter, because, if you can believe it, I LIKE Spells (and not just the combat ones).

I rather like Amanda, because my brain won't automatically make a stereotype judgement the moment I draw her. "Bob? Street Sweeper. Mandy? Gate Hopper. Amanda? Ooo, I wonder what I'm gonna be." She's an unknown quantity right out of the box, and I know a few players in my own group that dislike that kind of versatility.

!

Thelric wrote:Speaking of naked pictures and taking a thread downhill, I wonder if anyone has ever found the Easter egg in Strange Eons...

Can you give me a hint?

The problem with Speed 3 characters is not that they exist, but that there are so few maps and motorcycles. Solution: increase global production of maps and motorcycles. Or, I dunno, add ten or twelve of these to the deck:

I have a vehicles deck with 8 cars ($ eight), 8 motorcyles ($4) ,8 bikes ($1) 8 horses ($2) and 8 strong legs ($0). The cars and motorcyles need money (gas) to refresh, the horses have to fed every third day and bikes don't give you much but they are plentiful, strong legs give +1 evade at cost of a stamina.

I used pictures of cars and old Indians/Nortons from the Internet. Lots of fun.

Your misc small card is a real easter egg for me!!

People can draw a vehicle whenever they would draw from the common deck.

Dexter honestly tops my list. Any addition would make him too powerful.

Monterey is probably in my top 10. You just need to be a little bit lucky with him, then he can kill monsters, close and seal gates, beat an old one, find the Lost Ark, the kids in the Temple of Doom, the Holy Grail and the lost city of the Crystal Skulls all within one game.

Gloria is the character of choice of one of my friends. She's been very valuable in his hands several times now. The one thing she might need is a makeover for her looks, that's all...

Vincent never really impressed me, but he was one of the four investigators in my most succesful gaming experience so far (in which we went up against Cthulhu) so he should certainly count for something.

Amanda is about the most average you can get... meaning she's very versatile.

None of these should have anything extra.

Hobgoblin wrote:None of these should have anything extra.

So despite the fact they were voted the five least playable investigators, they are all quite playable and in at least one case above average.

Which might mean that the theories used by FFG are really quite excellent. This is possible. AH is an excellent game.

I think the game designer did, at one point, admit, however, the Sister Mary was a tad below average, but apparently the denizens of this board don't yet agree.

Then apparently this thread has no constructive purpose.

Sure it does! For those people wishing to power up those characters which they feel are underpowered, this thread can be of use, as well as coming to realize just why exactly they do not like a certain character.

Also, one must not forget that these are the lowest characters based on a vote of popularity, not their game power. While Vince, Dex, Monty and Amanda would probably still be dropped all the way down by most people if game-power were the only thing being voted on, Gloria may very well not have been (unless people are more deranged then I think they are).

So despite the fact they were voted the five least playable investigators, they are all quite playable and in at least one case above average.

Which might mean that the theories used by FFG are really quite excellent. This is possible. AH is an excellent game.

I think the game designer did, at one point, admit, however, the Sister Mary was a tad below average, but apparently the denizens of this board don't yet agree.

Then apparently this thread has no constructive purpose

All in my opinion:
Exactly. They're all quite playable, at least Dexter's above average (if you know how to play for him), the FFG people are pure craftsmen who have it all figured out and this thread can be fun and potentially inspiring for house rules for whoever needs it, but serves no further purpose.

If all of the investigators are playable (which they are), what purpose does it have to take a closer look at the ones that were voted off first? The whole voting system is flawed anyway. Fun, sure, but you're really taking it too seriously if you're saying there's something wrong with the ones that were least popular.

All five of these investigators have booked great successes right before my eyes, and not remarkably more or less than other investigators.

I believe it was Kevin Wilson who agreed that Mary should have a 'clues for a failed blessing roll re-roll' upgrade, then saying that she was the only one who seemed to be underbalanced. I adhere to that observation and sole modification.

But sure, house rule Dexter's will and sanity to ratings that you consider normal for the spellcaster he's supposed to be for all I care. If you need it, why not? I sure don't, though.

Sister Mary is the only character we have house-ruled. We allow for her to regain her blessing at the church without paying the trophy cost. We call it "going to Mass"...

napkin wrote:I think that the biggest issue people have with the student is her lack of direction.

Isn't that the issue with every student?

jgt7771 wrote:"I think that Gug futzed up the grill!"

"Jump out and check it, will ya pal?"

mageith wrote:
Can you give me a hint?

For SE 2, a hint would be:

If I were you, I
would think about
clicking.

the horses have to fed every third day

they must be pretty hungry by then

Maybe you could add a Penny Farthing to your collection:

[For full effect, press "copy to clipboard", then paste into an empty item in SE 2.]

Cheers,
Chris

First of all, let me say that I never complain about the character I draw and always play him. Even when my group draws two Investigators and choose one (mostly so that players that haven't played often get a chance to play someone they didn't play before), I just draw one and stick with it.

I like Vincent Lee, although he could use more movement, as everyone with Speed 3 could. Problem is, his high Sneak is a bit wasted with the low Speed. But I am always happy to play him.

Dexter Drake is one of those I don't draw very often, so I can't comment too much. But he seems to do nothing very well. He starts with three out of four spells but only has 5 Sanity; he's not a great fighter as his Will is low (which is very bad if you're a fighter relying on spells in the early game); and if I remember correctly, he starts without clues so he can't start to close gates very soon. On the other hand, he does have a Speed of 5, so he comes around. I think I need to test him again.

Monterey Jack is okay, I think. Yes, his problem is a low will combined with very low Sanity, but you can work around that. His ability, however is useful.

Gloria Goldberg is just mediocre; sorry, but I really don't like her. Her ability is great, but her stats are not. I'd gladly trade one Will for one Lore, so she can reliably close the more difficult gates. By the way, remember that every Investigator is supposed to have a cool thing? She doesn't.

Amanda is okay. Although I don't care for her very much, every time I play her she turns out okay, sometimes even quite useful.

mageith wrote:I think the game designer did, at one point, admit, however, the Sister Mary was a tad below average, but apparently the denizens of this board don't yet agree.

That, or they think they have a chance with the cute nun if they appear sensitive.

So far, of 103 sets of votes cast, Sister Mary has been voted for 63 times. She's up and down like Jenny Barnes's knickers.

Again though, this voting pattern is due to the popularity vote, not game effectiveness. If it were only that, she'd have dropped quicker imo.

Gloria Goldberg is just mediocre; sorry, but I really don't like her. Her ability is great, but her stats are not. I'd gladly trade one Will for one Lore, so she can reliably close the more difficult gates. By the way, remember that every Investigator is supposed to have a cool thing? She doesn't.

Depending on hwat you mean, I don't think I understand what you are saying. Her abillity is great, like you said. That is cool no? If you mean just general coolness, well she's a horror writer caught up in actual horror events. That is cool too to some people.
Do you mean she doesn't have something cool under Thelric's Strange Eons editor?

Again though, this voting pattern is due to the popularity vote, not game effectiveness. If it were only that, she'd have dropped quicker imo.

But even with game effectiveness, that may be totally dependent on people's preferences in the first place. The way some players handle some characters. The way people co-operate in their teams.

You will probably find stories of extremely successful sessions for each and every character (without exceptional luck involved).

I've played about a dozen games with Dexter being awesome and collecting lots of monster and gate trophies.
Sister Mary (who, admittedly, we've been using with Kevin Wilson's modification suggestion pretty much from the beginning) is known to me and a couple of my friends as 'the Killer Nun', especially if one certain friend of mine controls her. He tends to jump into fights without fearing defeat and the blessing normally helps him survive and kill lots of monsters.
I've seen Gloria being essential to victories. It took us a while for someone to get the hang of Monterey Jack, but then all of a sudden I was playing for him twice in a row in deliciously glorious sessions.

I could go on and on, and so could others. But some characters lack a general appeal to a certain audience, making their reflections in polls look as if they're 'worse' than others. I don't think you could judge on 'game effectiveness', and I certainly don't think there's a selection to be made of 'worst' characters that need fixing.

I fully agree with what you wrote earlier, though:

Sure it does! For those people wishing to power up those characters which they feel are underpowered, this thread can be of use, as well as coming to realize just why exactly they do not like a certain character.

Indeed, discussions like this could lead to proper house rules for whoever needs them to enjoy particular characters better.
But I don't see the need for calling for more semi-official rules like the Sister Mary 'mod' or anything like that, nor do I believe that the investigators could be realistically universally ranked by effectiveness.

Victimizer wrote:Again though, this voting pattern is due to the popularity vote, not game effectiveness. If it were only that, she'd have dropped quicker imo.

Gloria Goldberg is just mediocre; sorry, but I really don't like her. Her ability is great, but her stats are not. I'd gladly trade one Will for one Lore, so she can reliably close the more difficult gates. By the way, remember that every Investigator is supposed to have a cool thing? She doesn't.

Depending on hwat you mean, I don't think I understand what you are saying. Her abillity is great, like you said. That is cool no? If you mean just general coolness, well she's a horror writer caught up in actual horror events. That is cool too to some people.
Do you mean she doesn't have something cool under Thelric's Strange Eons editor?

I think the "cool thing" is a quote from Kevin. I've seen this (I think) on BGG or maybe a thread here. It is where the Strange eons back engineering to uncover invetsigator design rulkes is discussed. Kevein reveals that he tries to give each investigator a "cool thing" e.g. (not nec. Kevin's eg's mind) 4 clues e.g. $10 e.g. a retainer or Lodge membership e.g. a tommy gun etc.

- Chris

cw67q wrote:

Victimizer wrote:Again though, this voting pattern is due to the popularity vote, not game effectiveness. If it were only that, she'd have dropped quicker imo.

Gloria Goldberg is just mediocre; sorry, but I really don't like her. Her ability is great, but her stats are not. I'd gladly trade one Will for one Lore, so she can reliably close the more difficult gates. By the way, remember that every Investigator is supposed to have a cool thing? She doesn't.

Depending on hwat you mean, I don't think I understand what you are saying. Her abillity is great, like you said. That is cool no? If you mean just general coolness, well she's a horror writer caught up in actual horror events. That is cool too to some people.
Do you mean she doesn't have something cool under Thelric's Strange Eons editor?

I think the "cool thing" is a quote from Kevin. I've seen this (I think) on BGG or maybe a thread here. It is where the Strange eons back engineering to uncover invetsigator design rulkes is discussed. Kevein reveals that he tries to give each investigator a "cool thing" e.g. (not nec. Kevin's eg's mind) 4 clues e.g. $10 e.g. a retainer or Lodge membership e.g. a tommy gun etc.

- Chris

Yes, that's what I referred to. There's nothing special about her whatsoever.
Gloria is just one of those characters that tend to sit at a gate and try to close it turn after turn, then die from the monster appearing from the monster surge that could have been prevented if she'd had just closed that Gate.
Her ability helps her get through the more dangerous OWs (like R'lyeh, Abyss or Lost Carcosa), but she can't close the gate afterwards. She has neither the stats nor an ability to remain in Arkham and do stuff there. Against Yog-Sothoth, she becomes downright useless (to be fair, so do a number of other investigators).
She is however still not my least favorite Investigator; that crown would probably go to Lily, because I don't like her style, and because she is shy 10$ in equipment for no apparent reason.

Morgaln wrote:She is however still not my least favorite Investigator; that crown would probably go to Lily [...] because she is shy 10$ in equipment for no apparent reason.

That would be because she has steroid-pumped versions of the special abilities of both Carolyn Fern and Vincent Lee, and as originally designed could use both of them in one turn.

Morgaln wrote:
Gloria is just one of those characters that tend to sit at a gate and try to close it turn after turn, then die from the monster appearing from the monster surge that could have been prevented if she'd had just closed that Gate.
Her ability helps her get through the more dangerous OWs (like R'lyeh, Abyss or Lost Carcosa), but she can't close the gate afterwards.

Her ability is useful to collect additional clues in OWs, which helps her closing gates.