The Politian - Questions

OK I have 2 questions about the politian

1. During setup you pick 11 allies and the rest go to the box. The politian can take any ally that has been returned to the box in any phase. Technically he could take them all?

2. There is an ally (basil elton) you can discard to prevent an old one's attack. If you have the politian doesn't that mean you could keep using the ally to beat the GOO, and then take him back?

politiCian.

1. I don't think so. There's been some discussion on this, I don't know if any official answer has been released. The question is whether those 'other' allies are actually sent to the box, or removed from the game entirely. I'm inclined to believe the latter, but I could be wrong.

2. Quick thought, but I believe 'discarding' the ally would return him to the ally 'deck', and not the box. Plus, doesn't the politician only get to retrieve an ally from the box when he would otherwise be able to get an ally? When does that happen during a GOO battle?

good point for 2.

for 1. it says in the rules they are returned to the box

If it says somewhere that they return to the box, then sure, they're fair game. I don't have the rules handy, so I didn't know exactly what they say.

I think the words are pretty clear. The politician gets who wants when he has a choice. And he gets them from where he wants. Some don't think that's the intention. But I think they are trying to think outside of the box.

Allies have a couple of different states they can be in. They can be in the deck, they can be removed from the game (and placed in the box) and they can be a part of an investigator's "equipment."

Before, there was no distinction between being "removed to the box" and "not in the game at all." But this could be a key clarification for Kane. We have asked this question many times but no official response yet.

My feeling is that he is supposed to negate the times when you finally draw an encounter card to get an Ally only to find the Ally is not in the game. To me then, there should be no distinction in him grabbing this Ally. I think he should be able to get any of the 34 Allies regardless of which 11 actually started the game. The only exception being if someone already has that Ally in their possession.

For random draws, I am still leaning towards just that - a random draw; even at the beginning of set-up. Ma's is a toss up for me. I am sitting on the fence of allowing him to choose just from the current deck or from any of the 34.

As to question #2, once a GOO battle starts, I am not aware of anything that will bring back Allies. FFG is pretty adamant about making sure things that cancel a GOO attack happen only once.

Welllll... If you reduce the ally deck to zero and then use Basil Elton, and then use Dhole Chants ;') yes, you could use him twice.

avi_dreader wrote:Welllll... If you reduce the ally deck to zero and then use Basil Elton, and then use Dhole Chants ;') yes, you could use him twice.

That is a Tome and requires movement points to use. You have no movement points in the Final battle.

ColtsFan76 wrote:

avi_dreader wrote:Welllll... If you reduce the ally deck to zero and then use Basil Elton, and then use Dhole Chants ;') yes, you could use him twice.

That is a Tome and requires movement points to use. You have no movement points in the Final battle.

I couldn't find where movement points are denied. I've always assumed the final battle was in Arkham. Maybe its at just a virtual location?

Page 6:
"If the player’s investigator is located in Arkham (i.e., his
investigator marker is in the town area of the game
board), he receives movement points equal to his Speed
value, as found on his investigator sheet. A player may
spend one movement point to move his investigator
marker from one board area to another, so long as the
two areas are connected by a yellow line on the game
board. One movement point allows an investigator to
move from a location to a street area, from one street
area to another, or from a street area to a location."

There is no movement phase in the final battle. Just the Upkeep, Investigator attack, GOO attack, rinse, repeat.

^^ aren't those movement points gained in the movement phase?

Nijay wrote:^^ aren't those movement points gained in the movement phase?

Yes, you get them in the movement phase during the game - but there is no movement phase in the final battle so no movement pionts in the final battle. No movement points, no usage of tomes. I think that is what we are talking about, right?

ColtsFan76 wrote:
Yes, you get them in the movement phase during the game - but there is no movement phase in the final battle so no movement pionts in the final battle. No movement points, no usage of tomes. I think that is what we are talking about, right?

I'm sure you're right, but I don't think its perfectly clear. I've considered using Tomes before but usually didn't want to risks the sanity loss. Never stopped because I didn't think it was allowed.

In addition, trading is allowed and that's a Movement phase function. I agree that there is no statement that the final battle has a Movement phase. The ony phase mentioned, in fact, is the Upkeep phase and then there's battle.

1. Investigators Refresh
At the beginning of a round of combat with an Ancient
One, the investigators may refresh their cards, use any
character abilities, and adjust their skill sliders as though
it were the Upkeep Phase. Next, the first player marker
should be passed to the left. Finally, they may trade
items among themselves as if they were in the same
location (see “Trading Equipment” later in these rules).

TRADING EQUIPMENT
An investigator in the same street area, Other World
area, or location as another investigator may trade
money, Common Items, Unique Items, and Spells. This
may be done before, during, or after movement, but not
during combat.

And finally there's a picture of investigators fighting old ones using a tome on the Kingsport cover.

mageith wrote:In addition, trading is allowed and that's a Movement phase function.

No, it's not - not exclusively. Investigators can trade at ANY time they are in the same space with the exception of combat.

And finally there's a picture of investigators fighting old ones using a tome on the Kingsport cover.

Artisitc license I am sure.

I am not well versed in the Mythos so 1) I always thought the cover was just a monster and 2) I always thought she was using a spell on Dunwich not a tome (though it looks like a tome obviously). Kingsport does look more ike a tome since he is reading it and not casting anything.

ColtsFan76 wrote:No, it's not - not exclusively. Investigators can trade at ANY time they are in the same space with the exception of combat.

See my quote from above. You must be reading it as way before and way after movement.

This may be done before, during, or after movement, but not during combat.

At any rate, you are probably technically correct, though I don't see any real prohibition against it and several impliecations for it and thematically its probably OK.

Hmmm... Come to think of it, you're right :'\ there is no formal movement phase in the final battle. Whoops. That's at least a few KiYs I've used illegitimately over the years then (assuming the rulebook isn't flawed in expression like it was with the upkeep phase). Bleh... I'm going to email and ask for a clarification.

mageith wrote:

ColtsFan76 wrote:No, it's not - not exclusively. Investigators can trade at ANY time they are in the same space with the exception of combat.

See my quote from above. You must be reading it as way before and way after movement.

This may be done before, during, or after movement, but not during combat.

At any rate, you are probably technically correct, though I don't see any real prohibition against it and several impliecations for it and thematically its probably OK.

Actually, I am reading the FAQ

Miscellaneous
Q: Exactly where, when, and what can investigators
trade?
A: Investigators may trade any time they are in the same
location except during combat. They may trade before,
during or after movement, which means trading does not
end a move.
They may trade Common Items, Unique Items, Money,
and Spells. They may not trade Clue tokens, Allies, and
Monster and Gate trophies.

(underline added for emphasis)

Back to the movement though. It is only granted in Phase 2. There is no "Phase 2" during the Final battle. The phases as we know them are replaced with the 3 steps outlined under the Final Battle section on Page 22:
1. Investigators Refresh (which is the only thing that closely resembles a Phase from the "main game" - Upkeep)
2. Investigators Attack (which follows the rules for combat closely but doesn't represent a Phase)
3. Ancient One Attacks

If it is not in one of these steps, it doesn't exist. Trading was specifically added; movement was not.

I'm a firm believe that trading is a movement only thing cept during the final battle when it is a upkeep thing.
As for movement points during the final battle I believe that there aren't any cause there is no movement of investigators.

Finally you guys have addressed some good points but I think that you missed the biggest problem of all.

Unless I'm mistaken tamsyn has miss interpreted Kanes ability in such a way that Kane (if he had it) would be the undeniably best character in the game.
Both her questions imply that she thinks that when allies are returned to the box Kane INSTANTLY gets them. As in every time the terror level rises Kane gets an ally and if you have kingsport, dunwhich and pharaoh in Kane starts with the 23 alies that have been returnred to the box (see her first question).

For her second question, with the miss interpretations and thinking Basil gets returned to the box, her question makes sense (whereas other wise gaining allies during the Final battle is impossible).

If you read his ability and interpret it loosely its easy to see why this error could be made though obviously starting the game with a +66 and a bunch of extra skills is overly broken.
His ability only means that for the sake of getting allies the only allies that are off limits to him are those already aligned with another investigator. However he must still obtain allies normally like every one else.

BTW I feel I should share this with you all. Today I had 3 allies all paid for at Ma's. They were Basil, The Massager, and Professor Morgan. That Comes out to a +2 to fight (+6 to combat) , a +1 to will (+3 to horror), and plus 1 to speed. I was the bounty hunter and Shrub Niggrath was the AO so all monsters had +2 for spending. I got these guys for 7 monsters and 1 gate trophy. fun times

ColtsFan76 wrote:

Nijay wrote:^^ aren't those movement points gained in the movement phase?

Yes, you get them in the movement phase during the game - but there is no movement phase in the final battle so no movement pionts in the final battle. No movement points, no usage of tomes. I think that is what we are talking about, right?

I like to think its like when you are in the outer worlds and you can't use any tomes there either.

allstar64 wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken tamsyn has miss interpreted Kanes ability in such a way that Kane (if he had it) would be the undeniably best character in the game. Both her questions imply that she thinks that when allies are returned to the box Kane INSTANTLY gets them. As in every time the terror level rises Kane gets an ally and if you have kingsport, dunwhich and pharaoh in Kane starts with the 23 alies that have been returnred to the box (see her first question).

His ability only means that for the sake of getting allies the only allies that are off limits to him are those already aligned with another investigator. However he must still obtain allies normally like every one else.

I must address my apparent misinterpretation! I am not trying to munchkin my way out of the rules, just something we noticed.

Kane's written ability: Any phase Charlie may gain allies that have been returned to the box

Rules (pg5 KH) ..only 11 total allies should be used in each game. When preparing the ally deck, shuffle it and deal out 11 cards face up, returning the others to the box.

We obviously don't think he is due all the allies that aren't in the 11, that is due an errata.

If the ability said 'when gaining allies Kane may choose from those returned the box' then those points would be valid. But it doesn't, it says any phase and gain allies.

Since Kingsport isn't been imported in Italy I have no first-hand knowledge of this character but I noticed something and I have 2 cents to spare so here we go:

Being able to get an ally not included in the game is unbalancing, not because this character could be the only one ever to get such ally, quite the opposite in fact. There are several occasion that have you "discard" an ally and some allies allow you themselves to do so (like Duke for instance).

Now as an example let's say that Kane can pick an ally, he choses Duke which was never included to the game but was returned to the box during the setup. Kane can then decide to discard Duke to heal his sanity and return Duke to the bottom of the ally deck. Now there would be 12 allies in the deck and Duke (previously not included in the game) would be now available to any other investigator. (unless I have misinterpreted something and when you discard an ally you don't return it to the bottom of the deck as you'd do with any other investgator cards in the game...)

tamsyn certainly has a point. I must admit glossing over her point as I assumed she meant he could eventually gain all those Allies (through natural gameplay); I did not think she meant he automatically got any that discarded. The language could be read that way but given the context of investigator abilities, it seems most likely he is still just able to gain an Ally from the box when instructed to take a specific Ally.

Investigators are granted one, maybe two, "rule-breaking" abilities that alter things slightly. Being able to take an Ally from teh box when instructed to take an Ally is such a "slight" game-breaking ability. Taking all Allies as they are discarded changes too many things in teh game to be legitimate.

Back to the Final battle and movement:
@ allstar - Trading can be used during Phase 1, 3 and 4 as has been issued as errata. So it is no longer a matter of interpretation or preference, it is law! But feel free to houserule it. For all practical purposes, I find that it only occurs during movement 99 times out of a hundred anyway. Because if you do it in Phase 1, the game doesn't change any from that point until Phase 2 which is then technically "before movement" anyway. And if you do it in the Arkham phase when you are both sitting in the same space, you could have done it at the end of Phase2 as "after movement." So these distinctions are so fine there is no point in even making them.

The only stand out difference would be trading in the OW. The OW is so removed from the Movement phase that under thr original rules, no trading was allowed. Under the new ruling, it would be. And this is the only thating that actually benefits from the new Trading rule.

@ tamsyn: The way you view the FB lack of movement to the OW lack of movement is a perfect ananlogy. I thought about saying it myself but was afraid soemone would jump on me because you do techincally move in the OW but are not granted movement points.

ColtsFan76 wrote:

Investigators are granted one, maybe two, "rule-breaking" abilities that alter things slightly. Being able to take an Ally from teh box when instructed to take an Ally is such a "slight" game-breaking ability. Taking all Allies as they are discarded changes too many things in teh game to be legitimate.

I totally agree that the rules need clarification, because the way they are written at the moment allows taking allies as they are discarded, and this may not be the designer's intent.

However, there is a reason why you might get the ally as it is discarded. In games I have played the main way you return allies to the box is when the terror level increases (I realise there may be other ways, I have not studied this). Kane's other ability is to spend clue tokens to stop the terror level increasing. This would give an interesting quandry for the player - do you let the terror level go up and gain an ally but arkham suffers the consequences, or do you keep the terror level under control and not benefit. If he did not gain allies as they are discarded he would generally always keep the terror level under control if he could, and as an unlimited ability this also skews the terror level part of the game.

In today's climate it would seem fitting for a politician to have to make the choice between power and fear or helping people

tamsyn wrote: totally agree that the rules need clarification, because the way they are written at the moment allows taking allies as they are discarded, and this may not be the designer's intent.

Let me make it clear that I do not think "as written" it allows you to grab every Ally discarded.

I think as written, you could make a case that the language is loose enough to imply that. But I think it is so far out of the realm of possibility, that given the context in the game it is not what is meant - and so the other legitimate interpretation based on language is what is correct.

You still only gain Allies through "purchasing" them at Ma's or when an Encounter tells you to do so. There is no game rule that allows you to grab discarded Allies. So in order to be able to do so, a specific rule needs to be written. What is written on Charlie's card is not sufficient to make this change. It is merely stating that when you gain, you can gain from the box; not giving you additional ways to gain Allies.

ColtsFan76 wrote:
Back to the Final battle and movement:
@ allstar - Movement can be used during Phase 1, 3 and 4 as has been issued as errata. So it is no longer a matter of interpretation or preference, it is law! But feel free to houserule it. For all practical purposes, I find that it only occurs during movement 99 times out of a hundred anyway. Because if you do it in Phase 1, the game doesn't change any from tehat point until Phase 2 which is then techincally "before movement" anyway. And if you do it in teh Arkham phase when you are both sitting in the same space, you could have done it at the end of Phase2 as "after movement." So these distinctions are so fine there is no point in even making them.

I'm afraid I don't understand what your trying to address. Nor am I sure which rule your referring to. I never knew of anything other than trading or fighting that were arguably movement only things which could be attempted to be performed during other phases (cept monster encounters which I know about). Most of the items I know of which use movement can only be done during the movement phase such as tomes. All that I've seen state Movement for their phase of use.

Which rule are you referring to and how is it relevant to the game?