|Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay | Published 06 November 2009|
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is a roleplaying game that sets unlikely heroes on the road to perilous adventure, in the grim setting of Games Workshop's Warhammer Fantasy world. Players will venture into the dark corners of the Empire, guided by luck and Fate, and challenge the threats that others cannot or will not face.
I'm sorry, I meant to ask:
Jay, is it OK if we talk about the system in detail after the demo event? I mean, can we post system mechanics and start rules discussions without disturbing the FFG launch?
I anticipate a fun time during the demo. Of course most of the people I'll be running for are people that I invited. That's around 20 people that I've played with in the past or play with currently. So, it's already a little biased toward a positive aspect.
I will promise this though: I'll report it like it happens. If people are happy, I will report it and post pictures of smiling people. If people do not enjoy it, I'll report that too - along with frowny pictures. I'll keep a running tally.
In fact, I may do just that:
"Smile if you had a great time, frown if you didn't. *click*"
Well said Xenoss.... but dead horse flogging is such a fun past time and a good cardio workout! : P
I do look forward to is some unbiased 3rd party reviews on this. At this point that is the only thing that could sway me from my decision to not dump any money on this product.
And by previous post I meant #47.
The previous post was well written enough that I feel I have little to contribute, but I shall try anyway.
As release draws closer now, I think it is time for us all to calm down and hold off commenting until after we have a chance to play the game. Both sides of the argument has their merits. I'm not trying to be the "everyone has their own opinion" guy here, but until we have the full rules on hand everything you say, whether you are for 3E or against it, is based purely on speculations; speculations that are based on limited information. So let's not get ahead of ourselves and treat those as conclusions.
I am excited about the innovations in this game; I like what I have seen so far. But I also agree that the price tag is steep; it is a big investment on a new game, let alone a new paradigm that is still unproven. I think it will be good, but I'm not sure enough to bet $100 on it.
I think the best thing to do now is wait and play so the nay sayers can confirm their beliefs, or the supporters to confirm theirs. Until then, this is all for nothing; everything that needs to be said had already been said for both sides, so there is little need to go on beating this dead horse.
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1. Your argument about WFRP3 combat being much more complex than WFRP2 does not stand to close scrutiny, as I already showed in a previous comment in "Combat Training 103"... On top of the number of steps needed for a round of a combatant being more or less the same as in WFRP2, you also forget that in WFRP2 you have to make calculations, adding bonuses, subtracting penalties (this problem, btw, is exacerbated in D&D) and WFRP3 presents a very elegant solution: adding Fortune (white) or Misfortune (black) dice: this will be one of the biggest timesavers in the game.
2. Your argument that the system also feels dumbed down because of streamlining background does not have any base. I haven't seen any hint to suspect that character background in WFRP3 won't be as complex as in WFPR2: the same Old World, the same background development; this has little to do with mechanics... not only that, but many new WFRP3 mechanics, such as the stance track, make a direct connection between your background as a character and the mechanics, something that is hard to find in previous RPGs (not only WFRP).
3. Finally (I could go on forever answering your post, but have to keep preparing my upcoming campaign, so sorry if all my comments seem a bit rushed) I think you are falling in the same trap that many politicians fall into... You are a fan of WFRP, fine... but you are not a representative of the average Warhammer fan... not more than me. I have all WFRP2 books (some of them double) and a ton of Warhammer miniatures and some extra books and novels and I'm excited by the possibilities this new edition will bring to the setting... fresh ideas, fresh books, fresh fluff... you should at least consider the possibility that some of the books will also be interesting for WFRP2 and that, unless this edition is a failure, we'll probably have a lot coming for WFRP in the next years...
Every time you take a decision you run the risk of getting someone's disapproval, but that does not mean that your decision was wrong, or rephrasing it, that you and many others don't like parts or the whole WFRP3 only means that you don't like it, nothing more... Now, if you feel happy scaring new gamers away from this game with unfounded arguments (your arguments "price tag", "tennis comparison to sharing components" and "game must be bad because many old fans complain" being the lamest ones, in my opinion) because of some sort of crusade you have gotten into, you'll only help damage the Warhammer setting, nothing more... I hope you'll be proven wrong and this game will bring more exciting developments for all Warhammer fans, but I am only certain of two things: I like what I have seen so far, and I have preordered both the Core Set and the Adventuring kit (and by the way, for a bit less than 100$ in total, which in € is peanuts; the Core Set for 63$).
Gnutten took all my thoughts and put better words on them. Well said, sir.
If you would compare this game to Descent to discuss production value I'm afraid I would state that Descent would win hands down. Especially when you compare cardboard pawns against high quality plastic minis, and I would also say that Descent makes better use of these components (although the minis does actually need some paint job to really crush the competition in this case).
The price tag discussion naturally circulates around your own estimation of comparing the dollars against hours of fun equation. My problem here is that I would also feel I pay a lot of money for components I actually don't see the use for. Even IF I would fall for the urge to buy this game and replace 2:ed as my main RPG engine then I still wouldn't use the cardboard pawns (why replace existing minis, and I like the use of battle grids), the puzzle elements and a lot of the tokens (pen and paper makes this job better) and probably not the different character sheets either (I miss a lot of information on these and don't like the career sheets, and would make my own sheet instead). Then you pay money for items you wont use anyway. At the same time I can buy a RPG book just because I'm a bit curious about the game, feel some urge to read it but still know I probably actually wont play it. I wouldn't buy a box like Descent on the same on the same premises.
The price also escalates with the number of players nowadays and to say you can use this set for more than 3 players feels a little like stating that you can play tennis with only one racket as long you just lend i to you opponent once and a while.
FFG is by far my favorite board game supplier, but they have made mistakes before. In this case I would say that they would be far better off is they used this game engine on a WOW or Descent RPG. They could actually also made a light version of this box and call it something like Warhammer Fantasy Adventure Game and actually use it as a RPG/boardcame merge to attract and introduce the younger crowd and let i coexist with WFRP.
But this project doesn't feel optimal... and the made A LOT of changes they MUST have known would upset the fans 2:end edition. To exclude Halflings and to streamline character background and say that all human character are Reiklander is just plain stupid in my book. It would take a minimal effort to correct these issues and they MUST have known that some fans wouldn't approve of it. The excuse that they wouldnt include Halflings just to made sure that players wouldn't get the feel of the different types of elves are just plain silly. And don't even get me started on the Ratcatchers Tale hoax... sigh.
We can surely discuss the FUTURE of RPG:s and the definition of INNOVATION and the state of the hobby... but if I would be responsible for developing a new edition of a classic and deeply loved game I would surely try to make something new and fresh to attract new crowd but still make sure that the fans of the previous edition still felt at home and liked the progression. My gut feeling here is that FFG just ran away in the urge to make something new and actually lost a lot of the old fans. The old game is a classic for a reason. I have a slight feeling that they also tried to make innovation just for the innovation. The party sheet tension meeter is in my book just plain horrible and it feels like something you invent just to say that its something new. The simple fact that each new preview if followed by a poster war isn't a sign that the old fans are just a bunch of stupid haters but that the progression of this game might just not be optimal.
This film is obviously made in an effort to calm down the naysayers, but its easy so make a film when you see a bunch of developers say that "oh, its still grim" and "we kept the feeling" and that "these tools ease the storytelling" (not actual quotes but description of the message), but its really harder to actually to deliver the feel of the setting and the functionality of the rules without actually read the books and try the game. And for those who doesn't live anywhere near a demo center then we are back at paying 100$ for a box be don't feel sure about.
My current impression is FFG impressively enough made a system that feels dumbed down (the 1-5 stats, streamlining background and other character limitations) and the same time unnecessarily overly complex (card and token micromanagement and a messy dice pool system). To convince at least this sceptic a video of a recorded game session that shows that these new elements actually works would do more than a video of an developer just plain stating that it does.
We were new gamers once and didn't need loads of tokens and gadgets to introduce us to gaming, for me and I'm sure most of us it was the experienced gamers and their enthusiasm in the product and world that got us hooked.
New people and especially youngsters today are not daft and can learn things much more quickly than people give them credit for (come on who hasn't lost a Warhammer battle to a 14 year old).
I've never used anything with so many cards and tokens so I feel like a newbie when viewing 3E it all seems so confusing but i'm approaching my late 20's now and as an older person I guess I just used to be with it but now they've changed it. Now what I'm with isn't it and what's it seems weird and scary to me. :-)
Although I respect what the "naysayers" have to say, I am glad to learn that I am part of "the stupid consuming masses" because I am a supporter of this third edition. And I couldn't agree more with abmacFarlane when he said that "the mechanics are secondary as long as the game sticks to the setting". It happens that I dig a lot of the tools provided by this new system so far but what matters in the end IMO is that FFG provides a lot of attention to the Old World. Warhammer Universe has its source in Northern Mythology, Tolkien, Lovecraft, Moorcock Books and in some horror movies (Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Romero, Carpenter, Leone Movies and so on...). From what i have read in their previews, they really want to stick to it and I am ready to trust them because they are very professionnal, ambitious and are working their asses off in order to maintain the universe very popular. Again, It's Dark Fantasy at its best, "a very frightening place where you will never be comfortable in it" as Andrew Navaro stated in the video.
Concerning the 100 dollars price, well my younger brothers spend a lot more money in videogames and we don't exactly live in the Bahamas but in a modest flat in a big city (It can explain our need for Fantasy and imaginary landscapes). And again, It's not "the keepers of the temple against the heretics", I love Warhammer and RPGs as much as the most virulent naysayers do and I decide firmly to stand for this 3rd edition.
lol @ Waazdag. After all of your e-raging, teat suckling, and **** slinging (haha - yeah man, **** makes it all classy and junk), you still found time to pathetically beg for a free copy.
Some people are looking forward to release. Many of those people will enjoy the game. And... Well, that's all. That's the best counter to that wall of text you wrote.