LethalDose,

Looks like you came out to a 125XP for Zabraks, same as I did, though I priced the bonus skill rank a little differently than you did.  I honestly don't think every species needs to come out to 130 XP to be a perfect match for Humans, as I honestly think Humans should have a slight edge simply from their versatility, where other species have most of their benefits "locked in."

If you disagree with how I chose to replicate Zabraks, then by all means run them differently for your group.  I think the version that I came up with matches both the d20 stats previously given as well as the information on Wookieepedia.  Nothing there suggests that they are any better at recovering from mental stress than the majority of other species, while Durable reflects their "great resistance to physical pain" that's cited on the Wookieepedia article.

About the Noghri.

Looking at wookiepedia and the old WEG Alien encounters I find discrepancies for the size. The latter simply state 1.3 meters, which could justify a silhouette of 0, but WEG lists 1.4 to 1.7, which would not justify a silhouette 0 trait. So I am a bit at loss about that. Jawas are 0.8 to 1.2 according to WEG and 1 meter according to wookiepedia. I never really thought of the Noghri as small as it was done in the WotC books. Basically, I wasn't sure if I would have given them a silhoutte of 0, but I see the sources disagree.

Your write up is missing claws and fangs - as per the WEG sources cited above - which I guess can be justified for the sake of balance and manifested in the potential 1 rank in brawl (overlapping with the martial art specials from WEG). Similarly you have given them scent, rather than acute senses - the way you handled scent was good I think, although I see that this becomes too powerful if it should apply to any perception and/or vigilance checks. I would want to consider giving them a flat perception and/or vigilance bonus though.

You have raised the WT and ST by 1 and given them 90xp.

These decisions makes sense, although I am wondering how we could make them more akin to the Zahn source from WEG - The Heir to the Empire source book - which only gives them a bonus to damage due to claws and fangs.

Basically, my writeup (which initially had one rank of the Feral Strength talent instead of a potential brawl bonus rank - but I am reconsidering that now) would be similar, yet I would make the acute senses ability into a 1 rank pick of either Vigilance or Perception. Keep your WT and ST and the 90 starting xp. As for silhouette I'm not certain. As for stealth, that could be either slammed into the acute senses choice, although it doesn't make much sense… or it could be a 1 rank bonus to stealth additionally, and decrease starting xp to 80, if it becomes too much for balance sake.

Regarding the Noghri, I always felt the WEG version made them way too powerful, so that version was dismissed almost out of hand.

The claws & fangs, to my mind at least, while present weren't a major enough factor to warrant giving the Noghri a Claw-based trait like the Cathar and Trandoshans got.

Sizewise, they've always been described as being notably shorter than Humans, even Leia, who barely tops out at 5 feet, and they are easily able to disguise themselves as Jawas.  Those all say to me "small creature," much as it did for the WotC folks that did the Noghri stats for the various d20 games.

Also, their Scent ability can be pretty potent, as smell would be a factor in just about any Perception or Surviellance check unless the GM specifically overrides it, so that to me is worth dropping the Noghri down to 90 XP, as the Noghri are basically getting a free boost die in all but the most unusual circumstances.

 I think the point here is that its very important that players and GMs use their judgement when looking at these write-ups, the same as when you'd use any other player-generated content.  

This is a good supplement: Variety of species, good production value, fairly consistent.  But there's little editorial oversight (read the credits), and I've found the write-ups presented here are heavily focused on replicating their d20 equivalents, with little attention paid to other sources (Wookipedia, WEG, etc).  This makes sense, though, because a lot of players are going to want to convert their d20 characters and continue the campaigns they were playing.  But it also leads to confusion and frustration to those of us who were already scratching our heads when we saw some of the d20 write-ups 10 years ago.

Everyone is going to have different ideas on what the species write-ups should contain.  And the way we all see that is probably going to depend very heavily on when we started enjoying and playing in the Star Wars Universe.  Each individual write-up presented in this document represents the view of at most 3 people, and probably just 2 in most cases.

So we say "Thank you!" to Donovan, Cyril, Gallandro, ProfGoldfinch, & Zrissa for the hard word that they put into this document!  We'll use it as we see fit and you'll have to excuse us if we question the reasoning behind decisions that were made.

-WJL

LethalDose said:

Well, you're going to get that with officially generated content, particularly when it comes to stuff that was covered in prior versions.  Simply put, there's no way that any single author or group of authors is ever going to get a species "exactly right," as what constitutes "exactly right" is going to differ from one person to the next, and even vary from one system to the next.  The only real difference between what Cyril and I did and what FFG, WotC, or even WEG has done is that they have the official backing of LFL to say "this is what the species' stats are."

And quite frankly, if you don't like how Cyril or myself chose to interpret a particular species, then do your own versions to tide you over until FFG gets around to releasing "official" stats that are probably not going to look anything you think the species should look like.

***Regarding the Noghri, I always felt the WEG version made them way too powerful, so that version was dismissed almost out of hand.***

Sad to read that, considering there are at least two different WEG version of the species, and Zahn had contact with the WEG team and they with him, and I can only assume that the first version mirrors his description and communication with them. The first was the Heir to the Empire source book which only listed claws and fangs. Only later in the Alien Encounter book did they become too powerful. The one common denominator was the claws and fangs though, which I think is a distinctive feature to the species.

***The claws & fangs, to my mind at least, while present weren't a major enough factor to warrant giving the Noghri a Claw-based trait like the Cathar and Trandoshans got.***

To a certain degree I can agree, but I still think its a missing and important facet of the species. More important than their potential martial art or stealth capabilities, the 1 rank bonus could be dropped in my opinion.

***Sizewise, they've always been described as being notably shorter than Humans, even Leia, who barely tops out at 5 feet, and they are easily able to disguise themselves as Jawas. Those all say to me "small creature," much as it did for the WotC folks that did the Noghri stats for the various d20 games.***

That is a fair point.

***Also, their Scent ability can be pretty potent, as smell would be a factor in just about any Perception or Surviellance check unless the GM specifically overrides it, so that to me is worth dropping the Noghri down to 90 XP, as the Noghri are basically getting a free boost die in all but the most unusual circumstances.***

While I agree, I think that makes the ability name slightly misleading. Acute senses would more correctly describe their complex array of senses, and even more justify the decreased xp…

Jegergryte said:

See, I'd argue the opposite.  A pretty big deal was made in the Thrawn Trilogy about their hand-to-hand and stealth skills, far more than claws and teeth, at least in terms of usage.  I had considered just giving them a +1 bump on Brawl damage rather than the bonus skill rank, but felt the skill rank was a better fit to what we see in the books in terms of what the Noghri are capable of.  Just because they don't get any mechanical perk for having claws and fangs doesn't mean their not there, and the presence of such things could be a fun fluff-justification for the Lethal Blows or Feral Strength talents, with the Noghri using said claws and fangs to cause more serious injury to their target.  Togruta are noted has having some very prominent canines, yet nobody is clamoring for them to have a bite attack.

As for Scent, the name's appropriate since Noghri are noted as having a very keen sense of smell, but exactly being exceptional in their other senses.

As for the WEG stats, being in contact with the author isn't any sort of guarantee of game balance.  While the versions that appeared in Heir to the Empire might have been a "holistic" match to how Tim Zahn saw them, that doesn't mean they were meant for PC usage, something I think the various d20 versions of the species handled much better.  I'm sure if asked for his input on Corran Horn's stats, Michael Stackpole would have the character be a near demi-god in terms of his skills and abilities, but that doesn't mean it'd make for a balanced character.  I've had the pleasure of meeting and talking with Tim Zahn on a couple of different occasions, and while he's a great guy and supportive of the Star Wars fanbase and 501st Legion, that doesn't mean he's going to be 100% on the money when it comes to game balance.

Both the stealth and martial arts reflect, in my opinion, training and in particular as assassins for Darth Vader. Their claws and fangs are natural, ie part of them as an organism, a physical trait. This is on the line of the "nature vs nurture" debate, which is interesting but not the point in this thread (there is another). So I could accept, and like the idea of just bumping their brawl damage +1 instead of 1 rank in stealth or brawl…

Acute sense, or scent since you insist, can easily be kept. I'd just rename it to be more consistent with how I remember reading about the Noghri in action … it was more than "just" smelling people.

I agree that the second WEG version might not be balanced, but that one, and perhaps in particular the first one, was more in the spirit of the species than the d20-mess ever was. Additionally I don't think Stackpole would make Horn a demi-god, its presumptuous and not nice. While I can certainly see that authors love their characters and that they might not be the best to make the stats for an rpg, I still think it better to try to stay true to the authors presentation and vision of them, than going on a rampage a different direction. Its just impolite. Not that your version of the Noghri is a "rampage in a different direction" at all.

Jegergryte,
It's pretty clear we're not going to see eye to eye on Noghri stats, as I've now twice stated why I made the choices I made, and I'm sticking to them as I feel they're the right choices.

So instead, why don't you write-up your own conversion based on what you think they should be, as you obviously feel that I botched the job.

Donovan Morningfire said:

Donovan Morningfire said:

Okay, in a word: *sigh*

The above quote combined with a particularly nasty private message from DM has spurred a response.

First, and most importantly, despite what you said about my Thanks being " incredibly petty and condescending. A left-handed compliment if ever there was one…" I really do appreciate what the 5 of you assembled.  The thanks were nothing other than sincere.  You produced and edited 30 species and did a great layout in a document.  This took a substantial effort and I do think the community is better for it.  I hope a lot of what you did is adapted for official publication and you are appropriately credited for your work.  I'm making this public because I want to be sure that my intent was clear not only to you, but to the community at large.  That intent was to show appreciation for what you produced, but also to add a word of caution to those who chose to use it.

That being said, If you don't want my thanks for any reason, thats fine.  Shove them up your ass for all I care.  That is also sincere. All I can do is offer my thanks, no one is forcing you to appreciate them.

Second. You're absolutely right, the difference between what you and Cyril have done vs anything produced WEG/WotC/FFG is that WEG/WotC/FFG products have:

• LFL review
• LFL approval
• Professional editorial oversight
• Developer insight

Your write ups lack any of these, and therefore everyone who uses them should see them as nothing more than guidelines, and freely edited and modified.

Third, Following on the last statement of the previous point, you should be accepting feed back on how players view it, and open to critiques.  Personally, I think the write ups rely too heavily on the d20 versions of these species.  I also directly addressed I understood why you did that and was open to having a difference of opinion.  Its crass of me to cite myself, but:

LethalDose said:

Fourth, as far as "putting my money where my mouth is", well, no money was involved, but I have posted 2 of the 3 write ups I needed to adapt my players characters on this site, and provided justification for the design decisions that were made.  The Kel Dor was posted a page or two back on this thread. It didn't generate any responses that I noticed, so /shrug.  The Zabrak I posted above.  The Mon Cal was the final one, and the only difference between yours and mine was that I provided the choice between a rank in Surveillance and Mechanics, instead of just Perception.  (re-reading their wookieepedia entry, education and astrogation may be more appropriate choices though).  

I strongly feel a holistic approach, i.e. reviewing as many sources as possible, is important for creating these species write-ups.  I disagree with the way you did it because I think you leaned too heavily on one source of material.  And look at ALL of the material.  In the Zabrak description on Wookieepedia, you site one line about them being able to resist pain, but the vast majority of the text concentrates on their focus and determination.

Finally, I felt compelled to post the 'inciting message' because of what I saw to be a very cavalier attitude about your balancing mechanism in your responses.  You simply disregarded a numeric inequivalency between modified and unmodified base stats, and in consecutive posts state that you balance the species starting from the human template, and then state you don't feel they need to be balanced to a human template.  When I get that kind of answer from any designer, I get worried, and I think it required some attention brought to it.

TL; DR version: I meant the thanks.  I stand by my concerns and I'd like other people to be aware of them.

-WJL

LethalDose said:

And like I said in what was meant to be a private message, you came across as very insincere in your thinks.

You and JegerGryte raised concerns about the choices I made when designing these, and I've explained the rationale behind those choices.  And to be quite frank, I think you put far too much stock in LFL review and approval.  Having worked for WotC in a professional/freelance design capacity in writing several species for Star Wars Saga Edition and seen that there's been very few changes between what I wrote and what got published.

As mentioned to JegerGryte, if you honestly think that I did such a hatchet job on the Zabraks, then write up your own version and post them.

Donovan Morningfire said:

I don't think you did a 'hatchet job':

LethalDose said:

Donovan Morningfire said:

JegerGryte and I have stated that we disagree with your choices.  Neither of us ever insisted that you change anything in your document.  If you post information for peer review, you simply have to expect positive and negative feed back.  I think its clear by invoking your previous credentials with WotC, you don't seem to consider us 'peers' though.

Honestly, given how hostile your responses have been (evidenced by the hyperbole in your responses), I think its clear you're not interested in feed-back on these write-ups, so I'll be sure not waste more characters providing it.  If anyone actually reads how you've responded to Jeg and myself, I doubt they're be very likely to provide feed-back either.

-WJL

Just to put the final nail in the coffin with this conversation, I will give you some insight into my design process. I can't speak for Dono's process, but when I look at creating a species for this game - math and point totals are the farthest thing from my mind.

I look at the variety of sources I have available to me. I read the Wookieepedia entry. I look at the gaming material, both WEG and various d20 iterations. Then I forget about all of it and try to capture the feel of the species. I try to make them interesting and fun to play instead of being mechanically balanced point for point with the various other species in the book. I'd rather have a species that might be short a few points here or there but be flavorful and fun to play at the table than one that is carefully balanced but lacks any amount of soul. If I can work stuff in from the other sources, so much the better, but it is by no means paramount to the design.

I would encourage anyone and everyone that doesn't agree with how we've written up a species to take and modify it to suit their own purposes, or start from scratch and design them how you want to see them in your games. You're not going to hurt my feelings. Honest. There's many official sources, and many unofficial sources, and they are often all very contradictory. Plenty of ways to take numerous species.

@Donovan: I apologise if I have made the impression that I think you "botched" the job - FYI I do not think you botched it, and regardless of my thoughts on that matter, one should be able to discuss and treat this matter - the Noghri and its presentation in game form - in a post-adolescent manner - with less pride, personal prestige and integrity on the line. I have only been trying to point out justification for tweaks for what I thought and still consider to be a more "true" presentation of the species in game form (ie true to my recollection).

I can see that you have interpreted it differently, and I apologise for my part of that misunderstanding. This has not been and is not a attack on your person, abilities or anything else along those lines. It was about a concern regarding the game form of a much loved species. I have, since the early d20 days, always loved your home brewed stuff that you put out on the swrpgnetwork, used most, if not all of it in my games, either as you made it "out of the box" sot to speak, or with only small tweaks. If its respect you want, you got it, but please don't take my concerns regarding this as an attack on your abilities to make rpg stuff … because it isn't and it wasn't intended that way.

It saddens me to see these last few posts. The written medium is fraught with misguided interpretations, and particular online forums is easy to misunderstand, because its missing about the 60 to 80% (or so "they" say) that actually makes up communication, facial expressions, micro-gestures and tone … therefore threads like these base insults on assumptions of feelings and motivation, that is simply not there. And once the first reacts, its becomes an ongoing avalanche of verbally regurgitated faecal flotsam - in written form.

Cyril said:

FANTASTIC! Thanks, this will work great until the real stuff is released.