Staton said:

I absolutely agree, and as a member of that general audience, I'm frankly in a better position to know if the show is good or not without the book details.

Am I enjoying the show?  Hell yes.

Is my enjoyment of the show detracted upon in any way by me not knowing any of these extensive book details?  Um, no.  I can't see how it would be, since I don't know those details.

Are these extensive details cautiously headed by a SPOILER warning, seeing as how I don't know them?  No, they aren't.  That can't be right, can it?  Nobody would be trying to ruin my ignorant enjoyment out of spite, now would they?  That would be awfully selfish, and maybe even a little mean.

 As I mentioned before, I don't mind the changes to speed up the plot - in the book Arya and the boys flee the slaughter and get caught again a couple chapters ahead, no problem in making them get taken to Harenhall imediatelly for me.

Besides the changes to some characters personalities I pointed above, I'm starting to get a little worried for the future books. It's one thing to make changes when adapting a "closed" work (again, for instance, Lord of the Rings), and another to alter things in a story that still has no ending.

I'm slightly fearful that, with the popularity of the show that overlooks completely some mysterious plot points (Tower of Joy, for instance), when the time comes for the next books these storylines get unresolved, or worse get retconned to better adapt to the show storyline. Like, if in the new book George decides to kill the Reeds in the first few chapters since most of the new readers won't care enough for them. Yeah, I know nobody is safe (learned it the hard way with Ned, Jeor, Robb, Tywyn…) but that's exactly the point, George is already trigger happy, don't tempt him! 

Leo Malk said:

DAMN IT!  ARE YOU FRAKKING KIDDING ME?!?  WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!?

jgt7771 said:

I hope you'll note that before my major post, I DID post a spoiler warning.

jgt7771 said:

I am sorry. I hope you continue psoting your recaps adn pbservations. Not too mcuhd etail spoiled.

PLEASE MARK SPOILERS CLEARLY OR REFRAIN FROM COMMENT.

To protect other people, I reported the offending comment as inappropriate.

Have to say, these reports from a 'fresh' viewer have been really eye-opening, will be a shame if someone's foolishness ruins a good thing.

NOTE: Might be good if also some of the posts commenting the original one were modified to remove any information…

Oh noes! Bran and Rickon are burnt fish sticks! Prince Theon is truly Lord of Winterfell!

Psha right. Theon’s an inept twit with a brainless obedient gang of thugs threatening enough death and destruction to hide his incompetence. Osha screwed him (literally!) out of his royal hostages—the OLDEST trick in the book—and the Bald Thug called him on it. So Theon had to thump him with a damn-you-for-being-right tantrum to try to stem the hemorrhaging of his control. And even with a bunch of horses and hounds, he still couldn’t find them. Oh sure, the show is trying (not very hard) to get us to think that he did, but to believe that that doof could actually accomplish such efficient brutality is to believe that whiny Hayden Christensen could actually be the galactically-feared Darth Vader.

Obviously Osha knows a few Wildling tricks—at least more than a salt-sucking goat would—and Theon is covering for losing them by burning those two poor farmboys as a ruse. (“Make sure you burn their faces!”) If I’m wrong, then I’ve seriously underestimated Theon, which is simply impossible.

Checking in with the rest of the Starks… As suspected, Tywin’s on alert for an assassin now, but obviously has no clue who or where he (she) is. Well, he has A clue (more of an assumption, really): he believes it’s the first-mentioned Brotherhood Without Banners, a believed resistance within the Lannisters’ ranks (or at least behind their lines). To us, clearly it’s not—unless Jaqen is a member—but it does possibly represent Arya’s first real shot at escape if such a Rebellion exists.

Tywin and Arya have the BEST conversations, as Tywin drops easy bait to verbally ensnare Arya. Arya betrays her knowledge of history, particularly her interest in Visenya Targaryen (one of the three actual dragon heads on their crest…seemingly like Arya herself: royal sister, special sword, more than a petal-sniffing princess…it’s quite possible Arya once hid inside the skull of her long-dead steed, Vhagar), her proper manner of speaking, and her noble-ish snarkiness. I especially enjoyed: “Has anyone ever told you you’re too smart for your own good?” “Yes.” I kinda hate to think where this oddly sweet relationship is going, because once the Helsinki Syndrome is broken, it can only end ugly.

As I hoped, Sansa has a certain fascination with the Hound. She tries to go all “indignant Princess” on him (cuz that’s her version of “plumage”), and he counters with insults of shocking violence, daring her to stay anywhere near him (cuz something in him WANTS her to). I dunno: I’m probably being such a girl about this, but this coupling is SO Beauty and the Beast! I mean, why else would they keep doing scenes with them?? After her “blossoming”, he was already in her room! He’s totally stalking her!

Catelyn has to (regrettably) keep Jaime alive (for a rapidly deteriorating hostage exchange agreement) after his brutal escape attempt earns him yet another personal enemy. (About time we got back to Jaime; it’s been WEEKS. Not sure his fantastic tale of squirehood makes up for his virtual non-presence all season, but it helps.) Of course, then he can’t keep his big mouth shut, and goes on and on at Catelyn like some anime villain looking for that one insult that charges the hero up with a second wind before his final glorious ass-kicking. And once he lands on Jon Snow, he finds it. Will Catelyn take off his head with Brienne’s sword, or will she maybe get more creative and lop something else off instead? (Hey, I’m just trying to keep Jaime alive, because he’s a treat to listen to.)

Cersei’s breakdown is quite sad (sorrowful). As Stannis nears their doorstep, she’s losing (lost?) faith in Joffrey’s state of mind: apparently in this world, the DNA degeneration of incest is more mental degradation over physical disfigurement. (I was told that Joffrey is much better-looking in the books, no offense to Gleeson.) There’s also her attempt at comforting Sansa—directly acknowledging that Joffrey’s not going to be any great romance—now that she’s child-bearable. >SHUDDER< Cersei’s talk kinda makes me wonder if the whole incest with Jaime started with love or some twisted sense of duty or purity. (Did Tywin have anything to do with it?) Time for Cersei to find a life coach? (Tyrion still seems to love her, even if she hardly ever reciprocates.)

Some small bit with Robb and Talisa, although it seems to serve little purpose other than getting Robb out of camp during Jaime’s jailbreak. Well, and maybe lend more credibility to his attraction to her, as it didn’t take a lot of convincing for him to go on a bandage run for her.

But speaking of attractions…oh, do I LOVE Ygritte the little ice trollop!  I haven’t had this much fun listening to blue talk since Tyrion “confessed” at the Eyrie! She goads Jon with all manner of delicious dirty talk and mocking taunts, while his comebacks are blustery and weak, well, when he tries at all; mostly he just stands there and blushes, probably thinking about all them wet, warm places she claims to have. Of course she’s simply playing the long con with a completely pliable target, biding her time for a wildling commando squad to find her and capture Jon Snow. Granted, this whole subplot is still playing in full cliché mode, but Ygritte’s brazenness is SO entertaining (her voice is spectacular!), I’m letting it all slide (down the tundra ).

Finally, over in warmer climes, Daenerys is throwing snit-fits left and right at anyone who will listen about her missing dragons. Daxos keeps trying to shut her down, one would think so that she doesn’t get into too much trouble at the cost of his reputation, but really it’s so that she doesn’t upset HIS grand play. Daenerys is merely a pawn in an unseen power grab for complete rule of Qarth, and an actually successful one, as the Thirteen become Minus Eleven. All this time, I was getting a bit antsy about not knowing too much about the Thirteen, aside from the Spice King and the Warlock: turns out that was as unimportant as knowing the names of any other Dothraki Dany had left. Ah well, I never liked the Spiced Fruitcake anyhow (all those marbles in his mouth). But I have a bit more respect for the “parlor tricks” of Pyat Pree. (A thought: is this encounter with dark magic the MacGuffin with which to make them little puppet dragons bigger? Admittedly, I don’t know the growth rate of dragons, but my experience has always been in the scale of decades instead of months.)

The Masked Woman knows more than I thought about Jorah, but I still don’t know who she works for, be it a person or a society, what she’s capable of, or even what she looks like. I decided that I was at least tired of calling her that, so I looked at Jorah’s entry to find a name: Quaithe. Which naturally doesn’t help me at all.

jgt7771, I would just like to say that I absolutely love reading your episode commentaries.  It's been so long since I've conversed with someone unfamiliar with the books, and reading your reactions to things as they unfold is a treat.

I was particularly looking forward to this one, and you did not disappoint!

Agreed, really fun reads!

I re-wathced the second half of teh episode last night - i ahev to tell you: The tyrion-Cersei scene is really wonderful. Lena Headey and Peter dinklage communciate so mcuh with just looks at teh end there - you can see how their life long distaste is a barrier to their realtionship - both as brother and sister and as political allies. They want to tun to each toher for support - they both fear Joffrey - but the years of antipathy have just created walls to high for the needs of the moment to tear down.

Really well done. and this is coming from the most committed Lannister hater on these boards.

Stag Lord said:

Agreed!  It recalls the one scene last season between Lena Headey and Mark Addy when Cersei and Robert were finally just TALKING and not insulting each other.  That tragic-ish scene was also about, "It's been so long it's too late to do anything about it now."  And by the next episode Robert was dead.

I suppose this proves how truly fantastic Lena Headey is at being Cersei.  And there's never been any doubt how perfect Dinklage is at being Tyrion.

The calm before the storm: everyone to be involved in the upcoming clash got a moment to express their position on the upcoming clash. Because, what the hell, everyone dies tomorrow; you may never speak another line again.

So we kinda bounced around like mad, trying to give everyone a chance to talk. No one character held attention for more than, what, maybe five minutes total in the whole episode. Maybe Tyrion did, or Robb and Arya, by virtue of being in someone else’s scene as well as their own.

So this ep may go in quick bursts, but I will say this: much of the individual exchanges between any two given characters is a testament to both actors’ justifications for being on this show in the first place. Small scenes, almost acting-school types of scenes, just the actors and the words…there wasn’t anyone I didn’t like (or appreciate). One of the best ensembles ever assembled.

Yara brings Theon a huge contingent of advice (which generally makes a poor garrison). Theon is adamant about remaining the Prince of Winterfell, even after Yara argues point after point about why that’s just not a good idea. She makes sense with every one of them; his points are all based on Joffrey-logic—“For I am Prince!”—and boastful lies. She even drops out of superior-bitch mode to appeal to him as family, but Theon isn’t having any of it. If this were Shakespeare, this could own a whole chapter on the “How the Hero Blew Every Chance He Had” theme. Because deep in the Basement of Dead People lies the fugitive Bran and company, probably plotting revenge on the sparsely guarded Theon.

Jon Snow is brought to the Lord of Bones, who decides to kill him because they already got Quorin, also conveniently captured absent his now-dead Jon-hunting squad, all because Snow is almost a complete screw-up. (He should’ve stayed with Commander Mormont’s underpants.) Luckily, it would seem that Ygritte is still attracted to Jon’s underpants, and by virtue of his Stark blood, no one is killed today. Quorin’s got some half-assed undercover-behind-enemy-lines plan, but making Snow the crux of it doesn’t fill me with confidence.

The Lord of Bones had an odd reaction to the mention of the Starks. From the back of my head: “Hey, remember when you thought that maybe Benjen Stark had joined the other side?” Mance Rayder has almost reached mythical levels; by all general story conventions, it would not surprise me to find out that Mance is not unknown to Westeros, and not just as a lost Night’s Watchman.

On the other side of the hill, Samwell stumbles into a cache of old obsidian weapons and a Night’s Watch cloak under a stone marked by the First Men. (Since it keeps coming up, I suppose I should remember all this First Men stuff.) Still, a bit of a throwaway scene, isn’t it? I suppose I won’t understand the significance neither of this cache until its owner is revealed, nor of these lava glass daggers until, what, someone kills a dragon with one, since they won’t melt?

Robb gets a chain of scenes, first with Talisa, chatting about his Frey betrothal and his childhood with his father. (Awwwww…) Obviously, they’ve warmed up to each other.

Then, Robb is PISSED that Catelyn went over his head to enact a plan that relies on the honesty of Lannisters. Not that I don’t feel for her, but it’s kinda hard as a member of the omniscient audience to be on her side. She doesn’t know that Arya isn’t even part of the deal, and trading Jaime for Sansa, who is safe enough in the Hound’s sight, is not even close to a fair trade. Sorry, Catelyn, you should’ve kept your heart in check just a little while longer; now you may end up with nothing. (Lord Karstark could lighten up a little, but dead sons just don’t sit well with anyone.)

Finally, Robb and Lord Bolton discuss the squad of men headed to liberate Winterfell. Robb intends to offer any Ironborn a get-out-of-massacre-free card, so long as you aren’t Theon. Good plan, because we know that Theon’s men don’t even know how to spell loyalty (except maybe Dagmer). The Ziploc is closing on Theon’s chances…

This scene then transitions to Talisa’s turn to tell a story about her childhood. The sexual tension spikes, Robb blurts out he doesn’t want to marry a Frey, Talisa agrees, and then they can’t undress each other fast enough. When you’re so into someone that you can’t be bothered to take your boots off before…? Good stuff! (Of course, this relationship can only end in pain. Or maybe another Snow?)

Jaime wants to play his usual head games (always fun!) with Brienne, but she’s just too dutiful to even listen to him. Frankly, I’m rather keen to see these two matched up myself, because I’m with Ned: I don’t think Jaime’s as good at swordplay as he is at picking inferior opponents. Brienne would dice him. (Not too sure an aquatic approach by rowboat is such a good idea; this Mudgate is getting too much attention.)

Tywin is told that Stannis is almost upon King’s Landing, and if he wins, no Lannister will be allowed to survive the siege. Maybe they should pull out? No, Tywin gets all no-retreat-no-surrender and puts his faith in Joffrey, a Lannister by blood who will fight. (Yeah! Go, Tywin! Joffrey’s tough! He can do it! Dee dee deedle doo!) Meanwhile, Tywin’s got his own problems as he is losing his side of the war, because Robb is either really good or really lucky. But Robb is currently distracted by the Theon Brainfart (and Talisa’s boots), so Tywin intends to take advantage with a night strike, see if that works.

Too bad his Cupbearer heard the whole plan.

Arya’s too late to get Tywin’s name to Jaqen before the Lannisters ride out—very nifty Arya moment when she’s facing the two other jokers once held prisoner with Jaqen, and she automatically reaches for her still-missing Needle—so she’s got to quickly assemble her team of…um…cripes, “ragtag” doesn’t even begin to cover it. First, she outwits Jaqen by delivering him his OWN name, and shrugging off the dishonor of doing so. Sharp, sharp girl! (Gotta say I was a bit surprised by Jaqen’s “Please”; I’m thinking if Arya didn’t back down, that guy would have actually killed himself to balance whatever scales he worships.) At any rate, he props up every guard on the front gate, and the fearsome brute squad of Arya, Gendry, and Hot Pie just stroll out of Harrenhal. Hopefully that’s the extent of her oath of obedience.

Stannis’ fleet is one day out from King’s Landing. Stannis and Davos talk, and by that, I mean Stannis says something kinda serious, and Davos responds with a bit of humor. Suddenly it’s a rather cool dynamic, and Stannis finally seems sort of human. And it turns out that Robert really was a jerk: Stannis was loyal to Baratheon almost up to his own starvation, but he never got so much as a “thank you”. Renly got all the bonuses—so much more a people person—but Stannis still never gave up on his duty. Well, f*** them both. They’re gone and the throne is his, dammit, finally! I feel for him—the Baratheons are such a mess—but I would worry about the harshness of his reign. On the other hand…what? I’m gonna root for Joffrey?  Pffft!

Tyrion stands alone again. Sort of. Bronn’s still pretty cavalier about this whole siege, but he’s figuring that he just has to do his job—without wearing a shiny gold target on his back, mind you—and let others handle the grandiose plans. But I LOVE his approach to extended siege warfare: it’s not the arrows, or the swords, or the fire…it’s the lack of food that kills ya. And thieves that steal the food will clean up when it comes time to sell it. So…kill all the thieves BEFORE the siege! Genius! What if someone held a riot, but all the looters were already dead? Short riot! Tyrion figures Stannis will try to beachhead at Mudgate, and ominously implies that “pig shit” will be waiting for him.

Awesome scene: Cersei makes her move against Tyrion. She butters him up, first reminding us all that she’s not forgiving him for Myrcella, or his plans for Joffrey, or the weakness of his second brain…and finally claiming that she caught his whore. You can see that Tyrion is absolutely petrified that she has Shae, but he keeps his tone and wit measured and unwavering. But in his eyes, you can see he’s thinking about Cersei’s oath of pain on the docks where Myrcella left. Cersei’s a bit drunk on wine, but nothing will prevent her from thoroughly enjoying his anguish as she drags out the big reveal…Ros! (Wrong! That’s the previous whore!) Flooding relief surely weakening his knees, Tyrion doesn’t break his whipped dog act for a second, not even for Ros, and delivers an equally ominous threat as the one Cersei gave him. Cersei doesn’t care, secure in her victo…

…OFF TO SHAE!!! She doesn’t quite understand why Tyrion’s acting like a man dying of thrist seeing a glass of water, but she gradually sombers up as Tyrion begins professing stuff. Seems those two really dig each other.

Tyrion and Varys chat on the wall. I think this was my favorite scene of the night (save for Talisa’s boots). First an odd comment from angry Joffrey that Varys is suddenly lacking his usual level of intelligence from the North. It would seem that his “little birds” dried up shortly after Theon took Winterfell. Wait…Theon killed all the Winterfell ravens! Can Varys talk to ravens, like the weird dreams of Bran? (That would explain a lot.) Then Joffrey…Joffreys all over the conversation (moron!), and the two sharpest guys in Westeros share a rampart. Essentially, Tyrion doesn’t want to die, and Varys respects his abilities more than any previous Hand. They could almost be friends if they trusted each other. Varys even volunteers that Daenerys is alive! With dragons! Even if Tyrion doesn’t believe him, I found that awfully proactive of Varys. He always seems to be playing a longer game than anyone else, but I’m not sure how effective a strategy that is if no one else can follow his game. Still, a delight to watch those two riff off each other.

Oh, and Daenerys and Jorah share a moment where she impresses her own hype against his frantic desire to flee Qarth. Obviously feeling much for her, he relents, and it looks like she’s about to hold a siege of her own against the Undying to get her babies back. (Although Varys notes it will be some years before those dragons become grown, so how long is Daenerys going to be stuck on the outskirts?)

The tyrion-Varys scene was teh highlight of the episode. "One game at a time, please". Classic - and the delivery was spot on. I like Tyrion SO much more in teh series than I ever did reading the novels.

Next week should be a barn burner. The producers had to go, hat in ahnd and ask for an extra 15 million from HBO to do the Battle of the Blackwater justice. from what I hear - its worth every penny. Can't wait.

The TV show is amusing but it is a pale shadow compared to the depth and quality of the books (obviously).  I can live with most of the plot changes due the TV-format but I still find myself clucking like a chicken when things go down differently than the book. 

The most disappointing failure in the entire TV series thus far is Winterfell the keep. 

Look, I understand that the producers were on a tight budget during season one and decided to use some crap looking outpost/real life ruined castle as Winterfell but times have changed.  The wolves were CGIed this season but Winterfell remains a hovel, a pure abominable dump, and it will not get changed for obvious reasons.    

I do enjoy the greater perspective/depth given to Tywin Lannister, and I find myself foaming at the mouth in excitement when GRRM sprinkles in some random character elaborations/background-info that are not expressed fully in the novels (it is rare).    

I was crushed by the plot change regarding Jon Snow's abduction by the wildlings.  The producers/directors could have nailed that properly in accordance with the book series using the same time-frame and budget.  The men of the nights watch, and even Jon Snow, seem so utterly incompetent at this point in the TV series it is appalling.   Whomever is writing/directing the beyond the wall portion of the show should be replaced.    

Season 2 Episode 9: Blackwater

Wow

Worth the price of suscription to HBO - all by itself.