Bingo!                                         

Extra activations are an issue, but the biggest issue I have with the idea of "pass" activations on a turn by turn basis comes when you realize that it will penalize players who take advantage of their opponent's error(s) and gotten a couple of kills ahead. That is a valid tactical advantage.

I lean more towards having to buy "units" similar to what is apparently in DW, although that would take a lot more variety than DW seems to give. It would take more room that I want to take up laying it out here, but IMO it would provide a lot of flexibility while limiting the chances to pile on a bunch of cheap units. Another solution might be to give a bonus for kills, say 2-3 points, which wouldn't be a big deal for having a 40 point walker, but will be prohibitive for a bunch of 5 point observer squads.

The second option retains the advantage of extra activations while rewarding the lower unit count side with extra potential points at the end of the game. Hopefully if we do get some redoing of the units, hopefully it is just points costs adjustments.

Algesan said:

If the couple of units you've killed are more than activation fillers (i.e. spotters) then you already have a tactical advantage, you now have a larger and/or superior force than they do.  You shouldn't need to out-activate to finish them off.

Don't think a Pass Acivation is the way to go, I certainly wouldn't be pleased  if I were disadvantaged just because I was winning a game.  Also the balance would swing in favour to the guy with the high cost units.  Best bet is just not to play with a guy who cheeses out his army with spotters if you don't like it or agree to restrictions like 1 spotter be artillery piece and no artillery, no spotters.

Major Mishap said:

i was thinking the same thing about the 1 spotter per artillery, but was thinking 2 per artillery. 

Major Mishap said:

Unfortunately, choosing to not play against someone really isn't an option if you're in a tournament.

If FFG wants to have a viable tournament scene for Dust Tactics, they really need to ensure that certain army builds don't give you huge advantages.

Major Mishap said:

Is the other player being able to pass an activation really such the disadvantage?  I don't see it.  Especially if they can't use it at the start of the turn, or twice in a row.

xBeakeRx said:

xBeakeRx said:

Sorry, mean't to type 2 spotters per art :)

Thats exactly true. If you go to a tourney and see your opponent has loaded up on spotters you can't just say "no I'll pass on this fight".  Kriegschatten I 100% agree with you about the tourney system. If they want it to grow better they will need to fix certain things. Or every tourney winner will be heavy on spotters and cheap infantry.

fhaugh said:

fhaugh said:

Yes, its a big disadvantage.  Instead of forcing a unit to activate, maybe it has to move out into the open or range to shoot.  If it passes then it can sit there and force the opponant to move, the other player could sustain fire in cover instead of moving to shoot or doing nothing.  If you can pass, then you might go last meaning that the unit won't get shot at that turn - very important if walkers are facing each other.

If they are getting pass cards it means you outnumber them.  If they pass when you were hoping they would have to move a unit into your walkers range, activate a different unit than the walker.  You have more than that one unit availible.  I believe that pass cards would create a more "simultanous combat" enviroment.  Also, if you are losing units, you are already at a disadvantage.  Eliminating the activation difference would help keep the game balanced until the final turn.  As it is now, if your opponent gets one lucky turn, you will be unlikely to recover.  Out-gunned AND out-activated means you had better get real lucky, or hope your opponent does something real stupid.

I originally said you would get pass cards to keep the activation even, but that was mostly to keep things simple.  I do understand some of the objections people have brought up.  Personally I would play it as "Pass cards equals the difference in units minus one."  So if you have 5 and they have 7, you would only get one pass card.  It would prevent the "hordes of cheap units" armies, but not "punish" whoever is winning.

In my limited (no tournaments yet), out activating the opponent means being able to avoid dealing with reactions when you have an unfavorable LoS or move to make. Activate a half dozen observers, and boom, his Rattler can't do anything about the Hammers landing next to it.

If I could instead declare, no, my Rattler is going to spend its two actions to "Overwatch" and then just wait for an opportunity to react, that wouldn't be such an issue.

And yes fhaugh, I read your idea, I think your solution might be more layers than the game needs.

I originally liked the idea of overwatch, but it seemed to get shot down so quick, I tried to think of something else to solve this problem.  I'd be happy if they  used either idea, but I think both would be too much.

I think limiting the number of spotters you can take at a ratio of 2:1 to artillery units is a simple way to fix the problem.  Until they fix the points cost of Recon Grenadiers they will continue to be a problem, but at least this would fix the spotter spam.

xBeakeRx said:

Unfortunately, we now have the cheap Type 1 infantry for the Allies to deal with, too. 

For 150 points you could have 10 units of Leathernecks and their infinite range, cover-ignoring, insta-reload, All-in-One artillery spamming the battlefield.  And since each Leatherneck unit could have 2 observer units under your proposed rules…