Varnias Tybalt said:

I can still accomplish something good in my own country I shouldn't have to go to third world counrties to make the world better. After all presidents like Abraham Lincoln abbolished slavery without having to personally go to Africa. So please stop your baltent name-calling and you will already have made this forum a better place. 

Dave Allen said:

Manufacture CD's = oh really hard. Im not in the record industry nor do I belong to a band but still I burn CD's every single day for personal use.

Design advert's and album covers, create websites  = Do it yourself, or hire someone to do it for you. If you expect to make a living out of your music, you should make damn sure you can hire the right people as well.

Book gigs = Not that hard, depending on where you intend to play. The local pub might just be an affair of speaking with the owner, who knows? The owner might have actually downloaded your song from your website and liked you. As for large concert arenas you do pretty much the same thing, speaking with the owners, telling them that you'd want to play there. If you want to persuade them show them the fame you've garnered online and how many downloads your latest hit has provided. Check their fee's of the ticket prices and work it out with them.

Send out promotional material = if you're famous online, you rarely have to. Besides, nobody likes junk mail anyway.

Manage road crew wages = either do it yourself or hire an accountant to do it for you.

See? Lot's of ways to make sure that YOU control the entire shindig, without having to sell your soul to a greedy record company that will treat you like shit and not pay you what you deserve.

But then you might say: "Well, Varnias. Do you really think that let's say Britney Spears wouldäve thought of all these things herself?"

No she probably wouldn't, but she sucks anyway so I really couldn't care less.

Varnias Tybalt said:

And the self-righteous rant is in aid of what, exactly? Whatever your beliefs regarding the state of the world and how best to improve it, such matters are a little weighty (not to mention off-topic) for a forum about the new edition of a long-running fantasy role-playing game.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

You are quite right. This argument is going nowhere. I am sorry if things got off topic but this is getting very heated. So you heard him back on topic!

This thread has gone about as far off-topic as possible. Please re-direct your energy back to on-topic discussions.

lordsneek said:

You must have missed my point. The point isn't that you have to go abroa to make the world a better place. In fact I think charity workers who do that are a bit naive, because they really won't change the world by going to these countries as long as these countries rulers use the same oppressive and uncaring methods in controling the country in question.

My point was, that if you want to make the world a better place (regardless of what you want to improve, be it abolish slavery, or simply creating music that sounds a little better playing on the radio) THAT should be your main concern. Not the money you "potentially" lose due to piracy.

So you call yourself an artist do you? Well let's say that a kid in the third world who barely has enough money to eat properly likes the pictures you draw, and he have somehow gotten a hold of a pirated copy of your work. Do you think it's right to persecute that kid for copyright infringements, making him pay ridiculous amounts of fines in a lawsuit?

Would forcing a kid whose on the brink of starvation to pay money he clearly doesn't have, or throw him in jail just for having a tattered print of a picture you've made make the world a better place?

No. It wouldn't. I said it before, don't be so sanctimonious and try to pass of your own selfish desires of becoming famous, wealthy or being "remembered as a great person" as being "charity work" or that it would make the world a better place. It's degrading.

I know for one thing that PIRACY makes the world a better place. It takes away vast amounts of power that greedy corporations had monopolized for years and gives it to the consumer who have been largely treated like shit.

Yes, let's get back on topic (the previous post was being written during the moderators remark, so i didn't see it).

The pro's and con's of piracy are already well established in general, and now in this thread as well.

Steerpike said:

A Sony lawsuit claiming 75-150K losses per downloaded song.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/sony-lawyer-150k-damages-per-song-certainly-appropriate.ars

$750 per downloaded song being counter sued.

http://excesscopyright.blogspot.com/2006/11/constitutional-challenge-to-riaas.html

You know what I like about RPGs?

Telling a player that they lost their dice roll, even if it was a 01% (or 20 in DnD).

The look on their faces is worth all the years of putting effort into stories that the players hardly appreciate.

Varnias Tybalt said:

The problem with this is that you aren't Entitled to a movie.  If you don't like the way the movie industry presents their product, then don't watch the movies.  That's where the choice should lay.  Stealing the movie can't be justified.

Cynical Cat said:

They didn't claim those as 'losses,' those are damages and the statutory range is set by Congress.  A court certainly can'y 'laugh out' a claim for damages set by statute.  If you don't like the statutory damages, then you have to get Congress to change the law.

The 150K was damage claimed by Sony and the other is based on RIAA damage claims.  Remember,  I was simply saying that the claims of RIAA and similar industries are ridiculous and certainly 150K per son is ridiculous..  I was agreeing that RIAA claims are ridiculous, but stating that doesn't  mean piracy isn't responsible for losses.  I wasn't defending piracy or getting into legal technicalities.  The Sony case hasn't been settled by Congress, btw.  It's a claim in civil court that hasn't been resolved.  The law in question is one that the RIAA pushed for.  Its just an example of how the RIAA and associated industries' outrageous claims, which aren't limited to cases only to America.

And a mod has kindly asked us to move on from piracy, so shall we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWdh7ERLb3E&feature=related

what they said ;)

Cynical Cat said:

...unless it is talk about Orc pirates, that is.

Phew... quite the thread.

It is pretty tough to resist commenting on the craziness though... so just a really quick, really late thought:

The fact of the matter is, you don't get to choose to 'evaluate' full versions of whatever you want. It is illegal. Seriously. People made a product, and they made conditions for that product's sale and use, and the law agreed. If you feel that you should be able to evaluate any product you would like to, and try it out in full, for as long as you want, with no conditions whatsoever, you should get started on changing those laws - contact your local representative. Good luck with that. In the meantime, you are breaking the law.  

Anyways, back to the topic at hand:

Pen and paper games were always pretty niche - same as comic books, tabletop miniatures and collectible card games - they definately appeal to a certain kind of person (fortunately I happen to be one of those people...). There are fads, or hit products, and once in a while one or more of these genres will shoot up in popularity for a while. I think overall the non electronic games industry is pretty healthy - and it is easier than ever to self publish a boardgame or a pen & paper game or a card game etc. Companies are taking risks, trying new things, adapting to changing market conditions etc. - I think it is a pretty exciting time to be a gamer : ).