Poe said:

I agree. I actually do it already if, for example, someone barely makes a roll that I had given a +20% bonus to, I'll describe the favorable conditions as being the determining factor in the outcome. Having more "info" about what made the difference in the end is interesting for describing the action.

Foolishboy said:

Arguments are fine and dandy but in order to PROVE someone wrong you need... *drumroll* PROOF!

Since the game hasn't even been released yet and only a small portion of aspects and details that MIGHT be included in it (we have no idea what FFG might decide to include or scrap of the stuff revealed so far), it is IMPOSSIBLE to present anything in the form of proof.

While arguments do hold the ability to CONVINCE someone into changing  opinion, arguments alone can never PROVE anyone wrong or right without proof.

If you're going to try correcting someone, do it right before writing...

ChaosChild said:

Are you implying that I and other DIY-enthusiasts DON'T work for a living?

Mind sharing what you base those assumptions on?

Like ny working person I assume you have spare time as well? (I mean you seem to have the time playing RPG's so it's logical to assume that you don't work 24/7).

It's all about prioritising your spare time, if you don't feel like doing the proper conversions then that's your perogative. And if you feel disappointed over the fact that someone else won't do that work for you, then that's your prerogative as well.

But there is a limit to how much moaning in disappointment a person can justifiably do, and that limit has been overstepped countless times in this particular forum...

As I understand it, there are those who have already seen this game in action at Gen Con and been to seminars held by FFG.  I wont comment on the playtesters since I know they are bound by an NDA.  but seriously, what is all the secrecy about? 

vyrago said:

I think it was just a presentation, not a working demonstration. But Jay wrote that he's working on designer diaries and previews to show us what's up. I think he's gonna need an asbestos keyboard, no matter what he tells us.

vyrago said:

I've been playing RPGs for 27 years. I've played WFRP since the day it was released. I own basically an entire gaming store worth of RPGs. I've written a published roleplaying game, and worked on several others. I've released quite a lot of very high quality WFRP fan material, for both editions.

And you know what?

That doesn't make anything I say about the game any more an absolute truth or more correct than what anyone else is saying. It doesn't make me a representative of the old guard, or the hard core WFRP fan base, or any other group.

I don't have a magical "I am right, you are wrong" card to play, regardless of how long I've played, how much I've written, or how many games I own. I can only speak for myself, and I believe that if more people did that, the debate here would be a lot less acrimonous.

And what I'm feeling right now is part excitement, part apprehension. This could be a very cool version of WFRP, or it could be game that does not appeal to me.

It could actually be both things at the same time.

/Magnus

Which is alot like I feel about D&D 4e.  I was exited but aprehensive, in the end there are some things which are good ideas (such as more powerful wizards, simple spells as 'powers' and re-training) and some thing which were big turn-offs.  (like all the meta-gaming involved with the powers and magic items.)  Does it play ok?  sure.  Is it still D&D?  yeah.  But its gamist, too crunchy and immature.  Im starting to see 3e going that way too.  I'm sure it will have great artwork, good presentation, fine editing and even fun to play a few times.  but real roleplayers will probably start to feel like theyre on rails.  true roleplaying games are tedious and plodding.  they take hours of preparation, hours to play and often you end up going way 'off script'.  This new generation of RPGs are streamlined for ease of play, and theyre not really lying.  less preparation, faster table play (often shorter game sessions) and more adhesion to the adventure path.  From my own experience I've always found the most immersive RPGs were usually rules lite such as WFRP 2e or Heavy Gear (silcore).  one type of dice, a short list of modifiers and a basic resolution mechanic.  Perhaps this is a bad metaphor, but WFRP 3e is starting to seem like a RPG Nickelback compared to 2nd edition Metallica.  (while 1st edition was Black Sabbath!)

vyrago said:

That right there is the biggest example that something about your RPGs needs to change. In the short time that I have been playing indie RPG's (prime time adventures, ocean) it has shown me that one, rpg's do not need to take any time to prepare and two, you never go off script if you don't start with one. If your really looking to role play I suggest picking up either of the games I previously mentioned.

 This almost 30-year long RPG player thinks your blanket statement that "old school RPG  players will be repulsed by this game" is way too hyperbolic.  I think plenty of "old school" players will like it, plenty won't. 

You suggest that someone "prove you wrong."  I submit that it's no one's job to prove you wrong. Rather it is your job to investigate the premises and decide for yourself. 

It's one thing to open a thread to ask questions, raise debates and discuss. It's another to throw a litany of complaints against the wall and demanding that someone justify their decisions.

It's okay to ask questions and raise concerns about decisions, but the difference is one of tone and a sincere interest to hear what the other side says. 

macd21 said:

Yes, that's how I would say the dice are going to be used.  I of course also think it's a boardgame idea taken from other boardgames that already have these dynamics...BUT...I'd say that this is how the dice work and what they meant by the rolls aiding in the story telling.  For example, you have dice that are given to you under certain conditions, and may be dependant on what you do.  So let's say you normally have a WS of 3, but you are also given the intiative, as well as having the winds of fate blowing your way and you also have the spellcaster spell giving you a bonus so you actually roll 7 dice.  Now you may miss completely with your weaponskill dice, but the winds of fate may indicate a hit...so if your GM wants to, he can interpret it that way.

DagobahDave said:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome

[sarcasm on]

Wow, OD&D, D&D, AD&D, all by TSR really killed the industry

and now by the above linked page...

4e seems to have lost them the entire RPG industry...WOW!!!

[/sarcasm off]

Actually though, I thought you were ALL FOR this new system...weren't you?

You've been singing enough praises to it that I thought I could sell you beach front property in the middle of the Sahara if I just called it WFRP v4 and mentioned a that it would be grim and dirty as well as having new dice and a new dynamic.

And from what I see, this new system is going to have similar, as you put it..."obviously poor design choices? I mean, those would be horrible choices." as per your statement.

Hmmm, interesting.

Poe said:

IF I actually even start thinking about getting v3 (that a big IF at this point) the above reason would be one of the BIGGEST factors.  That and if they make it a board game, so it appeals to the boardgamer in me, stop this hybrid stuff and just make it a boardgame.  OF course, then there may be violent rebellion.  I'd mock it and truly get in arms that it wasn't an WFRP at all, even in an illusion...but I'd buy the boardgame.

I would say FFG is one of the most talented and resourceful companies for their products which they've come out with.  Even the small niche stuff like Midnight, is absolutely outstanding in the fluff.

Though I'm absolutely horrid at what they are doing with WFRP at the present, the above would be the ONLY real reasons for me buckling and getting this new, and atrociously outrageously expensive whatever you may call it WFRP thingy.

HedgeWizard said:

I'm sorry, I'll just re-word my entire first post.  Here goes.  *ahem*

I think it will suck.  do you think it will suck? 

:)

vyrago said:

I think it will be fab.  Now let's settle this like gentlemen!  <silk glove cheek slap>

GreyLord said:

When it's out of context, it's not clear that I was talking specifically about WFRP3. I'm referring to WFRP3 as the "big-name, big-budget, must-succeed game".

So the design choices that would be bad for WFRP3 (identical starting characters, mooks that use different rules) might be good for some other game -- and in fact have been. I'm not disputing that.

And yeah, I like a lot of what I've seen in V3. I've also expressed plenty of doubts. You can check out my profile and read all of my posts if you want to see for yourself, since I'm not going to repeat them over and over.

The good stuff is worth repeating, though.