Decent quality mooks with autoguns with penetraors rounds should surely be able to do some damage. Even if the shots do no damage, they'll still have to test for pinning. Dark heresy daemons have always been very weak, because they were designed when bolters did d10+4 damage and ascension didn't exist. I use the deathwatch versions to make my players fear the daemon, and you can alwayspoint out the the warp breach this time around is much larger, making the daemons more dangeorus. 

on the arbites shotgun, it is sickeningly powerful. so is the lockshield. I asked the judge in my game to take a exotic weapons training advance for 300xp in order to be able to use the thing properly and upped the weight for both the shotgun and the shield considerably but she is still like a little siege tank. I suppose the extra damage from hordes makes mooks more of a threat, but I'm glad the weapon didnt exist when my group were low level.  

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Well the bolt shotgun shells are described as fairly heretical so if an acolyte is seen to be using them by a tech priest a world of trouble could be heading their way!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first errata gave most deamon (weapons) the Warp Quality, making most armor simply non-existent to their weapons. Thats what Hexagrammic Wards (IH) are for. So 'simple' deamons like plague beares or deamonettes should be very dangerous.

Otherwise, use the cheap fyceline and detcord/-tape for some cheap (suicide) bombs, a 3-4 kg satchel would deal 3d5 to 4d10+20 X damage. They are rather cheap for that amount of damage. Other weapons for cheap resistance fighters are Grenade Launchers (frag and krak) or Disposable Missile Launchers (frag with 2d10 X  Pen 4) easily force our team to fan out, which makes it easier for your enemies to get a shot from the side or behind in.

btt: i prefer the Vanaheim, and a lot of different ammo, Blazer Shells, Executioner Shells, Snare Shells, Mansoppers, Acid Shells … so many choices!

segara82 said:

I verified, and they didn't give Warp Quality, but they gave Tearing, Toxic and things like that depending on the demon.

Adeptus-B said:

if you say so. from what i read, it says that the shields are primitive. thats what it says. "primitive." let me double check. it says primitive right next to the special properties that its defensive, and primitive. if you dont want to take that, then fine. but my original statement stands. i dont see how 5+ shots do less damage than 2+ shots, but whatever. apparently my math is not as good as yours.  

lock shields are easy to counteract if you know how. ban everything you dont like if you want, its your game and its perfectly within your right to do as you will. im just stating the obvious. 

funkwit81 said:

i found it, and after reading it, i think its actually a grey area. its not heretical but it irritates the tech priests.

Commissar Vladimir said:

You are looking at the Enforcer Riot Shield- the Synford-Pattern Lockshield is the next line. Defensive, no Primitive quality. But that's beside the point that the chart you are looking at applies only to use as a melee weapon, and not it's defensive value. Neither the Riot or Lockshield are Primitive armour.

Adeptus-B said:

fair enough. i had considered that. but in the end, i still say that a simple deadeye shot completely negates the shields use. aim for the head. head blocked aim for the legs. a femoral artery is just as deadly.

Commissar Vladimir said:

You are absolutely right that elite troops can negate the shield advantage without too much dificulty; I just don't like being limited to only using elite troops as adversaries from now on. The fact that my players no longer have to consider a couple guys with autoguns guarding a door to be a potential threat has cost the game some of its  grimdark character, i.m.o…

 You need to assess the adversaries across the entire adventure… those few guys with autoguns and flak armour may not be much of a threat, but they consume time and ammo and bog down the player characters from progressing towards their goals. If the players have 100 rounds a piece for their bolt guns it may seem like all the ammo theyd ever need, but after a thousand 'basic guys with autoguns' in several hordes, they'll soon be conserving their ammo, making tactical use of cover and things like flamers, grenades or even vehicles. At that point you can mix in the elite adversaries - snipers, heavy weapons, vehicles, jump troops, psykers, daemons, xenos etc. and they'll be a much bigger challenge than before.

Kasatka said:

Exactly, depending on the situation, a war of attrition can work against the players with almost the same effectiveness than a bunch of elite adversaries. That won't work if they have access to support and supplies though, but most of the time anyway, acolytes are alone in enemy territory. When they don't have any of those powerful plasma/bolt/you-name-it ammunition, they'll be stuck using the same autoguns the mooks were using. Also, hostages, if some characters in the team are do-gooders, play with that, take hostages (from nobodies to governor). That way, even a group of mooks becomes dangerous, because they are a threat, no to you, but to someone else (on which you might depend, the only astropath or navigator on a voidship for exemple). I tend to make the situation more dangerous than the enemies most of the because simply because of one thing…players loot.. a lot. So if you put a Nomad sniper in the hand of an enemy, be sure that if the players see that, and if it is more powerful than the sniper they have, they will loot it, and just like that, you made them more powerful just because you tried to "make a mook more challenging than the others". It's not a 100% effective solution, but I do hope it helps a little.

Turtletron said:

I get around player looting, especially in sci-fi settings, by having adversary gear either get broken in the fighting, or flung out of the area and lost or in the case of more advanced items something like gene-locked to its user. that way the players may well get access to advanced weapons through looting, but you can control when they are able to unlock the gear for use.

Well, the problem is that WH40k is realy archaic and for the most adversaries its simple not possible to maintain gene-lock Gear because they dont have the technology. If they have the technology they dont have the technican(Priest). If they have the technology and the technican they are either extremly powerfull, heretecs or the mechanicus itself.

Genelocks are realy uncommon though they exist. But to equip a whole fighting force with that… for each gene lock on a weapon you could hire, pay and enquip another 100 Soldiers.

The only genelocks I can remember are in use by some Inquisitors or Rougetraders, we dont talk here about fingerscans or so. And also the Vindicares use them to protect their gear which is by all means on the top imperial equipment, there are other things too but these are realy special.

Also I dont like it that some of the Gear just "disappeared" like in video games to keep the players in balance. If i was able to defeat this opponent and risked my life I also want to have a chance to get on those tools that nearly killed me. Thats why I prefer combat tactics over just stronger enemys to give the players some challenges.

Cymbel said:

Couldn't agree more! Also there's Acid Shells, which are every bit as horrifying as they sound, and the good 'ol Executioner Rounds. Also don't forget that Shotguns are extremely commonplace, they don't arouse a lot of suspicion unless you're waving them around like a lunatic!

 As for the shields being really powerful, flamers and firebombs.  Make an agility test (at a minus I imagine for that big heavy shield)  or catch on fire.  that should liven it up a bit for them.  especially with 2-3 of them shooting at once