I guess I'm just still seeing enough in there for everyone to shine, just like in the movies non-Jedi shine. Whether you can pilot, are a princess, have underworld contacts, own a gas mine, speak 50,000 languages, or carry a bowcaster.

Role should always be as important as mechanics if you're going to be considered a traditional RPG. The role of a Jedi is actually quite limiting (more so in Dark Times) and other players don't have to deal with it. Once in a while the GM should take the Jedi's spellbook and place him in a situation where he's already cast all his spells. No match for a trusty blaster and all. "You owe me one for saving your ass in that Death Star trench." And sometimes the Jedi should mop the floor while the thief is hiding in the shadows.

Plus I'm old and used to play the character I rolled so I can have fun with a mechanically weak combat character. We used to walk to and from the dungeon uphill both ways. Just trying to keep a touch of that alive because it's more satisfying and a broader game. Overcome your "weakness." Play your role. Look beyond combat to your character's motivation.

All this and I'd never deny the right of an adolescent to power game as I did with my 17th level paladin with a gold dragon mount when I was 12.

I try to accommodate play styles but I don't like it when the game changes the setting too much. It's a tricky RP setting though.

Bottom line, I'm applauding the direction this game takes for lightsabers. And I agree it will take a bit of work on the GM's and players' parts.

Nabikasu said:

THAT IS WHY THEY ARE DIFFERENT BOOKS IN DIFFERENT GAMES

To put it less angrily - we've got the three different books and the three different power levels for a reason. No arbitrary balance. Sure, Boba Fett is equal to a Bounty Hunter + 4,000xp.

If you want to play Han Solo tooling around with Lando, you play Edge. If you want to play Princess Leia heroically fighting the Empire, you play Rebellion. If you want to play Jedi fighting Sith, you play Power.

To put it another way, if you want to play A New Hope, you play Edge. If you want to play The Empire Strikes Back, you play Rebellion. If you want to play Return of the Jedi, you play Power. It's about narrative focus and overall power level.

One of the biggest problems of WEG, d20, and Saga is that they tried to be all things in one game. It didn't work, at least entirely - Star Wars is pretty big. Splitting it by movie/narrative focus/power level is a way more elegant solution.

GoblynByte said:

I find it funny that a goal, in a Star Wars game, should be to keep lightsabers out of the hands of the players. Why would I play Star Wars, if not to swing a Lightsaber? If I want to play a smuggler, or a crook on the fringes of a society, many settings do that WAY WAY better than Star Wars, which is a high fantasy setting, not a gritty, edgy setting.

Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader are both more appropriate to that genre for me, anyway.

To me, this whole debate would be like trying to make a grimdark game based on Lord of the Rings. Its silly.

Seeten said:

That conversation has already be had on these boards. Many folks don't see Jedi as the focal point of the Star Wars universe. Nobody is saying that Jedi don't belong. Just that they don't always belong mixed with "normal" characters. Many folks believe it is better to do the Jedi justice and play them on the power level that they are in the movies rather than nerf them for the sake of cramming them into the D&D concept of an "adventuring party."   Many folks see the non-Jedi aspects of Star Wars to be some of the most defining aspects of the setting and aspects that have been sadly neglected for the past 10 years.

Again, it has to be emphasised that this core book is focused on the time period of the Galactic Civil War when the Jedi themselves are more or less extinct and the Jedi that do exist (other than two notable ecxeptions) are not "true" Jedi in terms of their power. With this core book you can create a character like Luke who is more on par with the power level of the other "normal" main characters. Jedi who are of the power of Jedi with the power level you see in the extended universe material since the prequels will be depicted in the third book (Force and Destiny). If you want to wield a lightsaber like Luke (and have lightsabers be very, very rare LIKE THEY ARE IN THE ORIGINAL MOVIES) then play this game. If you want to play a campaign where Jedi are a dime a dozen and everyone and their uncle has a lightsaber, wait for the third book.

Not to have a big argument, but in the original movies, the PC's had one guy with a lightsaber, and Obi-Wan in the party, and they fought Vader, who also had a Lightsaber, so even in A New Hope, I wouldnt exactly call Lightsabers rare.

PC party in ANH:

Luke - Lightsaber

Leia - Blaster

Han - Blaster

Chewie - Bowcaster

Obi-Wan - Lightsaber

That looks pretty non-rare. The only place Lightsabers are rare is in background material/throw away comments, because the original trilogy is pretty clearly all about dudes with lightsabers(and their buddies) defeating bad dudes with Lightsabers(and their minions).

But, it is also worth noting that no minor characters ever have a lightsaber in the OT. We never see one on the belt of a stormtrooper or bounty hunter. Three of the four lightsabers seen in the movies are from the pre-Imperial Era. The only new lightsaber that appears during the trilogy is Lukes in ROTJ, though I'll grant the movie doesn't explain if he made it or bought it at the Mos Espa Walmart. The novelization of the movie, however, does say he created it and they are not available for purchase.

We also get an idea of its rarity from Luke's reaction - he's completely unaware of what the item is. So, whether they off the market because of difficulty of manufacture or they're just plain not useful if one does not possess force powers, they are certainly not common.  (Even before EU comes in.)
 

Quicksilver said:

I distinctly remember Vader going "I see you picked up a new lightsaber at K-Mart" in RotJ. If Imperial Surplus Depot can sell 50 credit Star Destroyers (okay, so that was a clerical error) I don't see why they wouldn't stock jedi paraphernalia. :)

Hey, I'm not here to play like, "The right way to do it cop" I just found that the "Lightsabers are ridiculous and should be banned by GMs" comment sounded completely ludicrous and couldn't resist commenting.

This game is also obviously not for me. If I wanted an edgy game in an edgy setting, Star Wars would be the absolute last place on earth I'd think to set the game. I acknowledge that its not Badwrongfun for others to wanna be a party of Cade Skywalkers (sans force sensitivity/lightsaber on his belt) and run around playing intergalactic planetary space pirate Star Wars or whatever, and more power to them.

Seeten said:

Misquoting doesn't do your point any good.  I never said they were rediculous and should be banned by the GM. I said that if the GM feels the way the are portrayed in the movie is too powerful for his campaign he should not allow his PCs to have them which, in context of the time period, is perfectly reasonable call since they are very rare.

And your example of the number of lightsabers in the original trilogy is skewed because the "party" you speak of included two of the only three remaining Jedi left in the galaxy. That's an unfair sample.

Slaunyeh said:

You make me snicker. A lot. ;)

I can see and understand the desire to want to balance a demi-jedi in a game that's primarily aimed at creating underworld/fringe type stories.  Having them included allows some force-user shenanigans without them utterly dominating every scene.

But at least lightsabers are there for people so inclined. As someone that liked the bounty hunters in star wars more than the jedi, I was disappointed to see that the beta doesn't seem to include some of the more iconic bounty hunter weapons. No wrist-mounted dart of flame weapons, no pack-mounted rockets, etc. The game's entry for flame projectors and missile weapons stat them to be full sized military equipment.

I almost assumed there weren't any Jetpacks until I found an entry for them in the extra equipment section.

 The game is going to be "lethal" no matter what. Having listened to the Order 66 session, one of their characters gets utterly destroyed for the simple fact that she didn't get into cover during a fire fight. She got a single action, and then got blasted into unconsciousness in 2 shots.

That really puts the fear of lightsaber's being too strong into perspective--you're not getting out unscathed regardless of what you're up against if you don't do your damnedest to avoid getting hit. And that's very fitting to the setting.

If you're trained with a lightsaber, fighting someone with a lightsaber, you're going to stand a chance. If you're not, then don't get into a fight with someone with a lightsaber! It is totally doable to run away, get into defensive positions, and keep firing from a distance.

redocelot said:

Yeah, I can see that. I mean, a lot of those gadgets can be covered by the weapon/gear modification rules. Which, in a way is what Boba and his ilk really had: jury-rigged gear that they made themselves. But the final book might have more gear. I'd hope, anyway.