The Bolter was changed from 2d10 to make Tearing less clunky and reduce the high probability of scoring a RF.

WittyDroog said:

I thought it was because of that whole "Human bolters should make the same damage as Astartes bolters (or vice-versa) as they are firing the same round" debate that happened a while ago, and they compensated by leaving it at 1d10+9

 In the dark heresy adventure book, space marine bolters were 2d10. In death watch they were 2d10+5. After the errata and and in black crusade they were 1d10+9. They were most likely changed because they were insanely powerful. As in more dangerous then astartes plasma weapons. With none of the drawbacks.

JuankiMan said:

Bottom line: There is no good reason why there has to be a difference, as it is pretty easy to explain just about anything with made-up tech excuses of the very same manner that are used to explain the Space Marines' physical superiority. It is why recoil has never, ever been even pointed out in GW material, only a gun's weight and how encumbering it may be. Thus it's obviously a simple matter of preferences. Some will like FFG's idea, some won't. Me, I don't see what this RPG has gained from the division other than a needlessly reduced compatibility for mixed groups.

Musclewizard said:

And then we have a full galaxy of people who have evolved to differ in strength averages depending on what world they hail from. Space Marines recruited from one world would be a little weaker than those recruited from another. The same goes for soldiers of the Imperial Guard. There actually are some strong humans who carry a heavy bolter solo, without power armour augmentation, in the tabletop as well as in GW's RPGs, and even here in these games.

But even if we are just going by what FFG's RPGs tell us, why should a human who is able to lug around a 40kg heavy bolter suddenly have issues with an Astartes-style boltgun that weighs 17kg, is a good deal smaller and has a lower rate of fire? He shouldn't. It just goes to show how arbitrary this has been set up.
Nope, I for one much prefer how GW handles it - at least in "Inquisitor" they actually look at the weight of the weapon and whether you are strong enough, instead of checking if your species qualifies you for the l33t gear.

However, since this RPG series is rolling with this deviation and I do not believe they'd change it now, I agree. It would be better to just give Marine bolters a bigger calibre in whatever book FFG would mention this the next time. It still would not make it look any less arbitrary, but I think it'd improve the existing explanation a little.

Lynata said:

Good point. I can't seem to find an argument there really. At least not one that I fould fully agree with.

Maybe the Space marines have always had their own "size" and manufacturing for weapons and they were never shared or ever deemed to be neccesary for humans. Maybe an Astartes Bolter takes far longer to produce than a human sized bolter simply due to the number of rites and some sanctioning process that could be involved.
I agree that it has a very game-ish feel to it but I don't really see how you could handle it differently without completly rewriting how damage is dealt (away from it relying only on the weapon and incorporating user skill somehow) Either make the space marines bolter weaker or the human bolter stronger, both would probably break the game balance of the respetive systems. Changing the Astartes Bolter would probably cause further problems making Space Marine less apropriate for their own fluff simply because their signature weapon suddenly isn't all that good anymore against a lot of powerful targets that they face .

Thanks for bringing this up though. I think the solution I'll go with (once again head canon) is that Space Marine Bolters are much more complicated than human sized Bolters and are produced using ancient chapter specific rites and techniques which are forbidden to outsiders, exceptions may apply (or something along those lines).

According to Deathwatch, regular humans can use Space Marine weapons, but treat it as one caregory more unwieldy, so a human could concievably use an Astartes Bolter, but would treat it as a heavy weapon. What he could not use is an Astartes heavy bolter, unless it was bolted down in a stable position, as it would count as a Mounted weapon.

It isn't that arbitrary.

Lynata said:

There's a bunch of easy reasons why this would be the case. To begin with, as has been addressed in Deathwatch I think: handles and triggers. SM weaponry is designed with giant Astartes hands in mind, and would mean that a normal human trying to grab even a standard SM bolter would have difficult even getting half his hand around the handle, let alone reach the trigger. You can infer this because in DW, in order to use non-SM weaponry, the SM essentially needs to spend time ripping off trigger guards and other similar actions in order to be able to fire the weapon at all. 

So ya, the weight is not the issue, it's simple the design of the weapon. Just imagine someone making a weapon that would fit with a gorilla's huge hands, and then trying to have a regular human fire it: they may be able to carry it fine, but operating it efficiently is a whole other matter.

"Ssrak is not as smart as the teks with their metal face snakes, but they do a much better job of fixing up mah ripper than Ssrak can do.  But Ssrak does live on a nice hot and dry planet the we share with the Spays Mareens and he has seen their shiny, pretty shooties; and also the spays mareen teks that fix up their bolters.  They is mad, wicked smart and know how to make those things shoot mean…and my buddy Nayfin is a pretty good shot, but he can't shot like the Mareens from our parts.  Ssrak's not so sure either way, since I can't really get my fingers into the tiny shootin' hole like Nayfin' can, so I's not for certain, but Nayfin (he's a smart guy, gonna' go places someday) says "good soldiers use their weapons better, and the Sol Raptors are the best soldiers we've got", and that makes a lotta' sense even to me…so it must make a LOTTA' sense to him."

JuankiMan said:

Aren't you forgetting that small -30 penalty to all tests, applying regardless whether you're wearing power armour or not? There is also a number of human weapons in the various supplements that are heavier than a Space Marine weapon of the same size category.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

HTMC said:

Well, at least you do agree that weight would not be an issue. In that case, however, how large do you have to make a bolter to become that unwieldy? What caliber would you want these guns to shoot? As the rules stand, even an Ogryn would not be able to utilise a Marine bolter properly, because regardless of his size and strength, he's no Space Marine, so that weapon will always be unfit for his "huge gorilla hands".

But the issue isn't that normal people would have a problem shooting a Marine's guns in this RPG, it is that the guns designed for them are that much worse, even where it's clear that it is the very same basic design but with a different grip.

At its core, a bolter is nothing but a barrel with a diameter of 19mm, or 25mm for a heavy bolter. Add, say, another cm for the barrel itself. The ammunition is loaded directly into the barrel and has a self-propelling charge. Apart from the firing mechanism and the feeder, anything you slap around the barrel is, thusly, mere accessories. Fancy stuff that may improve the gun's reliability or targeting capabilities (see the cross-section posted earlier), but is in no way necessary for its basic function. To actually make such a gun unwieldable for normal people, you'd probably have to make Space Marine bolters shoot cannonballs or something.

Also, I'm just going to point out that Dark Heresy's Inquisitor's Handbook already includes a gun that fires stolen Astartes bolt rounds in a basic weapon usable by normal humans (the Angelus). "Back then", the justification for characters not being allowed Marine-grade bolter rounds was just that they're illegal. Turns out that, apparently, the entire Imperium is just too dumb to replicate this idea and equip even its elite Inquisitors with it.

There's really not that much to discuss. That Marine gear always has to one-up the human stuff (even where it comes to Terminator armour) was obviously a design decision that had nothing to do with realism nor existing fluff. I ask only that people would realize this, and that they do not have to attempt to justify it, as any potential explanation can be dismantled rather easily by other explanations supporting GW's opinion on this subject … getting us back to where we started.

As I said - interpretations and personal preferences.

Lynata said:

To be precise the Angelus Bolt Carbine is a highly illegal rifle that can house a total of 3 astartes calibre bolt shells that have to be stolen more or less individually as so called 'blind shells' before the Adeptus Mechanicus gets their hands on them.

Lynata said:

Lynata said:

You always claim that there is no such thing as WH40K canon, so GW opinion is no more valid than anyone else's.

JuankiMan said:

But yes, you are right - hence the bit about preferences.

Musclewizard: /salute

HTMC said:

borithan said:

It's a mixture between inadequate grips, balancing problems for a regular human and overal design. Aiming a gun you can't grip correctly, that you find oddly proportioned for your frame and that you have to twist your head uncomfortably to look down the sights must be extremely awkward. On the other hand, I would give Space Marines a -10 penalty for using "mortal" weapons (it's easier for an adult to use a toy gun than for a kid to use a real gun) because it must be quite awkward firing a gun too tiny for your hands.

WittyDroog said:

In my random thoughts about reunifying bolters I had considered giving Space Marines Proven (3) to represent the higher level of quality control with their weapons and choice of ammunition.

Still feel -30 is too much. That is a big penalty.