But all along George knew that he wanted the Force to be heritable. He just hadn't formulated how it would work until the Phantom Menace. I don't like midichlorians either, but I sometimes ignore the word and insert [genetical inheritance of Force sensitivity] in its place since that's really what Lucas wanted.

Budgernaut said:

Ah, Budgernaut, I must apologise for getting confused there! It's been about a year since I last had a game with Saga Edition, and couldn't quite remember the exact rules. I appear to have gotten confused as some Force powers allow you to spend a Force point to augment them, not to use them in the first place. Anyway! While I like your idea of Force points representing the Force being in all things etc etc, I'd have to disagree slightly with you also. You state the decision to use the point is made by the player controlling the character, but in the RPG the player is the character, or at least is meant to be. So the player, as the character, says "I don't like that, I'll try it again but with the Force", which I suppose is what I was driving at as it being nonsensical to use the Force in that respect when you aren't Force sensitive.

I'm sure if they were called Something Else Points, I'd be much happier!

I'm always struck at the irony of the Force as a heritable system, when Jedi aren't supposed to have kids. But anyway...

spalanzani said:

Yes, I understand where you're coming from, but I still disagree because of circumstances where you know something but your character doesn't. Also times when you know there's an enemy around but your character doesn't. Those situations seem to say to me that the character and the player are two separate entities. Of course, it could also depend on if you're a Jim player or a Ben player.

(For those not familiar with Darth's and Droids, I highly recommend you check out the links above and then view all the episodes. As someone who is visiting a thread about a SW roleplaying game, you will love this site!)

Budgernaut, thank you so much for sharing those links - I've just spent a very hilarious couple of minutes looking at a few! I think I could probably very easily waste away here looking through the whole lot though, so had to stop myself. Also pretty interesting, as well. Anyway. I think my sole reasoning for saying players are their characters is based on a paragraph about meta-gaming that is either in the Saga Edition core rulebook (presumably the GM chapter) or else Galaxy of Intrigue (I think) - it uses an example of trying to cross a chasm or something, and basically says something along the lines of "you shouldn't assume there will be a retractable bridge because the GM wouldn't not put one in there at this point", do you know the part of the book? Well, anyway, wherever it is, it seemed to highlight the import of playing in character, to my mind. But the main concern of these things is to have fun after all, so I suppose it doesn't really matter how you play it!

I feel like I've lost the thread of this thread now... sorry everyone!

Budgernaut said:

Is the word itself really the problem?

MarthWMaster said:

No. My point is that I don't mind strength in the Force being heritable. That's fine with me. Sure it creates problems for explaining why Jedi aren't allowed to marry and how Force sensitivity crops up in lineages that have no history of it, but I think the idea of heritability was inherent in the original trilogy: "The Force is strong in my family. I have it. My father has it. My . . . Sister has it." (Luke, Ep. VI)

What I have a problem with is the method chosen to determine inheritance. The idea of symbionts that speak to you if you "quiet your mind" is very off-putting to me. It also leaves open the question of how the midichlorians are able to do that. Are midichlorians what create the Force, or are they just one of the rare types of beings that can communicate with the Force? When a Jedi uses the Force, are the midichlorians what are actually making objects move as they interpret the Jedi's intentions? I think a simple gene would have worked fine (at the risk of sounding like X-men). Of course, the problem with a heritable method of the Force is that you should be able to replicate it scientifically whether that's adding more midichlorians to a being or using gene therapy to introduce the Force gene into a non-Force-sensitive. Supposedly they tried this with Grievous and it didn't work. Demagol tried to find out how the Force worked but wasn't able to figure it out (was he?). And how did Joruus C'baoth, the clone, use the Force unless Midichlorian DNA (assuming they are nucleic-acid based life forms) was also collected with the original Jorus C'baoth DNA material? (This last point is more a matter of the timing of when midichlorians were introduced to the franchize rather than hole in the idea, per se.) And the ultimate killer: if midichlorians are necessary to commune with the Force, how can Force spirit be manifest if it has no body in which to house the midichlorians?

I wish George had just talked with other people about ways to make the Force metaphysical but heritable at the same time. The orginal trilogy interpretation didn't explain the inheritance, but the prequel brings into question whether the Force is really mystical and magical by giving it such a  scientific basis. If only there was an explanation to bring both in line . . . 

Basically, I feel like it's one more thing we need to just suspend our disbelief about. I mean, we accept light speed and hyperspace and lightsabers (that sometimes have weight and sometimes are weightless), so we may just have to say this is the way it is and move on.

Budgernaut said:

Thank you, Budgernaught. I couldn't have said it better myself! The fantasy/myth elements of Star Wars are what really set it apart from any other sci fi that existed at the time (or now, in my opinion). Applying science of any kind to the Force really cheapens it for me. I must willfully ignore these references to enjoy something that has been a part of my life since 1977! I respect the opinions of those who disagree with me, but I feel very strongly about this. Mystic Legacy would have worked just fine & have been more thematically appropriate. If a simple blood test could identify Force Sensitives, then no one from a civilized system would fall through the cracks & there would not be Jedi masters wandering around looking for Force Babies. I doubt the Sith could have remained hidden either, Palpatine in particular.

Alpha Chaos 13 said:

WOW! Why has this never occurred to me before? It blows my mind. I will likely be pondering this for some time. Lucas really did mess things up with midichlorians, didn't he. Oh well -- I like the original trilogy better anyway (but clone commandos are pretty cool).

According to Wookieepedia (entry title "Midi-chlorian"):

1) "The magnitude of the midi-chlorian count served as a measure of one's potential in the Force, though there were other inheritable characteristics that could influence Force ability as well. Indeed, though Force ability often meant a high midi-chlorian count, it was not always the case."

2) "Midi-chlorians could be detected through a blood test by measuring their concentration in a being's red blood cells, though such tests were not perfect and were prone to fault."

In other words, testing Palpatine as a child by no means would have guaranteed the Jedi Order of discovering his potential in the Force. And of course the Galaxy is too vast for every child to be tested. It's likely that only those children who demonstrate unusual skill that might suggest Force aptitude were tested, as was the case with Anakin.

MarthWMaster said:

I always take things from Wookiepedia with a grain of salt. The same entry states:

"During the reign of the Empire, midi-chlorian tests were performed routinely on Inner and Mid Rim worlds to root out Force-sensatives and Jedi in hiding. Such individuals were rarely heard from again. In response, an underground trade in drugs a blood treatments sprang up that could supposedly fool a test or lower one's count; however, they were largely ineffective."

According to this, the blood tests were so effective that Force Sensatives became desperate for a way to beat them.

If I was going to run a Star Wars RPG I have already taken the position I would ignore the prequel trilogy (and most of the EU set before the original films as well). They just don't fit with the original films.