LethalDose said:

And this is why I openly state myself to be a playtester, rather than either pretending to be a dev (I wish… seriously, I'd love to be, but I'm not that good at writing, otherwise my freelance application might have succeeded), or a normal player (because that'd be just as dishonest really, as it'd imply I'm not slightly biased, which I am. There is stuff I dislike about the 40k + Star Wars games, but I wouldn't playtest for them if I didn't like them overall).

I agree with Lethal - trying to pass yourself off as a dev, when you aren't, is frankly insulting to the people who did work hard and get credited as devs, as you are trying to leach from their work and reputation for your own benefit.

So, like I say, given that no one is buying that two and half years doesn't seem like a heck of a long time to wait for Jedi, or that putting off thinking about it until then will make that game any better when it does arrive, when can we expect FFG to do the right thing by the community and get Jedi in to peoples hands?

MILLANDSON said:

See my post above regarding my involvement with the Saga Edition version of the Star Wars Roleplaying Game published by Wizards of the Coast.  If you want to spilt hairs, then fine, I was officially a Designer for the Saga Edition role-playing game, and being pegged to Additional Design in the credits based on the senority of other Designers such as Sterling Hershey and Daniel Wallace.  But to a lot of people, particularly those without an axe to grind, the term Desginer and Developer in regards to RPGs are pretty much interchangable.

Not once, ever, have I claimed to be a "developer" for Edge of the Empire or have any sort of special connection to the guys at FFG in regards to Edge of the Empire or any of their other Star Wars RPG product lines, past, present, or future.  I have specicially referenced my time working on Saga Edition, and only Saga Edition.  I've had PMs here asking for my thoughts on designing EotE, and I've replied that I was not involved in any, way, shape or form with EotE's development, and that my speculation about what went into the design process was exactly that, speculation.

Would I love a chance to work for Jay Little and FFG in "designing" additional material for their Star Wars product line?  Hell's yes I would, but the simple fact is that for a freelancer without either a pre-existing connection to a game company (specifically, somone in the position of making the decision of whether a person is to be hired or not for a given product line) or a long history in the RPG industry as a freelancer, getting an RPG freelancing gig is incredibly difficult, and I know a few folks that have pretty much bowed out of RPG freelancing due to the inability to get a steady stream of work in that field.  Because quite frankly, the pay for being a freelancer sucks given the amount of hours that can be put into devleoping, designing, and then delivering that material, often within a very tight window.  And if you repeatedly miss deadlines, kiss a freelancer career good-bye, as no reputable company will want to touch you with a ten-foot pool.

Again, just to be absolutely 'effin clear, the only work I did and have every claimed to do regarding a Star Wars RPG was only for Wizards of the Coasts' Star Was Saga Edition.

TL,DR Version: LethalDose is way off base, but given his personal vendetta against me, that's not the least bit surprising.

ErikB said:

Actually, based on the posts of this thread I would say that most people are buying that the development time is appropriate, and don't believe that FFG is just putting it off. It's just a few of you that don't. 

ErikB said:

Emphasis mine.

Thanks buddy. Thanks. Shows you that you don't pay any attention to those that are arguing with you here, or that you apparently wish to dehumanize those that disagree with you and not really call them people or consider that their opinions matter.

Plenty of people here with apparently some form of game development background have balked at that notion (at least Lethal Dose I think, sorry for speaking for you incorrectly if I'm wrong).

But yes, I "buy" the two and half year argument, that seems like a perfectly reasonable rate at which the jedi book comes out. I understand why the smuggler book would be first.

From there, the Smuggler book needs its own updates/books. So at least one equipment/advanced option/starship book, one module. Alright, those are two other books. Then the Soldier book comes out, with its own advanced options book and a module. Thats 5 more books beyond EotE right there that should come out before the jedi book. So 5 books in 2.5 years? 6 month cycles, seems fair enough to me.

And I love how the goal is just to get Jedi into people's hands, that you don't care about any other aspects of the material that would go with it. If you made a Jedi in EotE, how would you justify their obligation system? We don't even know if Jedi should have obligations like EotE characters should.

KommissarK said:

I think you are being impatient. We can bump those to two and a half years in the future to make room for the Jedi. I mean, as you say you don't mind waiting that long.

And as for why or how my experience working on Saga Edition might be relevant, it's because I've had to sit in the same seat as Jay Little and Sterling Hershey and Shane Lacy Hensley, and having to consider how the new material I was developing at that time would interact with other material within that framework, not only for my personal campaigns and my immediate group of players, but also for hundreds of strangers whom I will probably never meet, but will take what I've developed and use it in ways that were never intended, forcing me to have to consider how what this new material I'm developing will be used in context of not only the core rulebook but also any other supplements down the road.

Since most freelance designers/developers tend not to post on message boards, I thought maybe the point of view from somone that's been on the design/development side of an RPG line might be appreciated by some.  But apparently that's not the case, which I guess explains why a lot of designers and developers, freelance or otherwise, don't post on the message boards for the games they've worked on.

As for the "dev" tag that's been applied to my name, like I said earlier, to many of the folks that I worked alongside with on supplements for Saga Edition, as well as to GM Chris and GM Dave of the Order 66 podcast and to a number of folks on other, far less hostile message boards than this one, I'm a Saga Edition "dev" simply for the fact that I developed material for Saga Edition.

ErikB said:

You're assuming I care about any particular system.

In fact, the game I want to play is the stormtrooper game, so I got no money in this whole argument. I don't really swing towards the smugglers or the jedi.

But what I do beleive, is that a game out in the wild needs support books to back it up. You can't just machine gun fire off 3 books with so much similar content, and then get back around to supporting each individual product line.

KommissarK said:

In all seriousness, it is always easier to wait for something you are not interested in.

Is there anybody who actually wants to play a Jedi who doesn't think two and a half years seems like a heck of a long time to wait?

Erik,

I understand that you're disappointed. I'm sure there are quite a few people out there that are. But we all must accept that fact that this is FFGs decision. If you don't like that decision, try writing a letter to FFG themselves. I don't know if you've noticed, but there is no moderator for these boards (although… if this thread continues to devolve, I'm sure we will get one). That means no one from the company is officially seeing your complaints. Try that route and see if you can get an official response to your request.

If not, I would then advise to search out another system to play. I know it sounds like a cop out answer, but I am serious. If FFG is not producing a game you want to play, why invest the time and effort into complaining about it? SImply leave and take your hard earned money elsewhere. I did that with Privateer Press years ago and Games Workshop before that. I won't even purchase PP's Iron Kingdoms game. I use Dresden Files RPG rules set for that setting now.

ErikB said:

I think you will find that almost no one on this board will say that they disagree with FFG’s decision. That would be dissention from the company. Truth be told if Edge of the Empire and the Jedi book came out at the same time, the Jedi book would be selling significantly faster than EotE. The people on this board who are adamant that FFG is doing the right thing would if only able to buy one, buy the Jedi book first.

The notion that FFG is working on the Jedi book is silly to me. Sure they are writing the many important aspects of the book but the rules I am guessing are done. I am confident that they have had the rules worked out for a long time now regarding these three books. I don’t believe this is a top up approach but rather a silly gimmick regarding the original trilogy and releasing the books to look like them.

Donovan Morningfire said:

In regards to Donovan Morningfire. I don’t think he would be going around on posting boards saying they are a developer (especially when it is so easy to find out) if it was not true. This just looks like a witch hunt to me that has no bearing on the subject.  It does not mean I particularly agree with Donovan’s position on Jedi but I have no reason to doubt his legitimacy.

Darian Ocana said:

All this really means is that a bad decision wins in the gaming industry. I don’t think that is right or healthy for our industry and the gaming community. Sure I will play other games and I am sure I will play EotE (never said I wouldn’t) however, It does mean that we have the right and the responsibility to be adamantly vocal regarding the game.

In many ways, those of us who want a Jedi in the game are being told that we are getting Rogue Trader and we need to be silent because in two and a half years, our time will come. As someone who has been involved with marketing, I can tell you that the old phrase “the customer is always right” is not just a phrase but a statistic. For every one person that likes a product, they will generally tell one other person. 1-1, for everyone who really likes a product it’s a 1-5. Five people will benefit by one person being happy. Unfortunately it gets much worse when people are not happy with a product. If a person is unhappy with a product/service it is a 1-5. That is five people will be informed and if someone is really unhappy (which I am sure many will be with a no Jedi book) it goes to 1-20.

This information was originally collect I believe by a refrigerator company years ago and has become a reevaluated statistic for many companies and corporations. Even the FCC uses these statistics based on complaints.  I am sure that there will be many Amazon reviews that will say “liked it but there are no Jedi” followed with a 3 star review.

Dance Commander said:

If you saw the force rules as they were initially presented in the EotE beta, I'm not sure you would have that same opinion. By all means they needed some work, and before any more powers are added, there needs to be some meaningful considerations of scale.

Perhaps you disagree that this is actually the case or not. But would you not agree that if the rules are not developed yet, a bottom up approach to development would be wisest? Understand, that while you accuse someone like me of being a shill for FFG (I will admit, my purcahses of their games has probably helped put some of their children through college, as any look at my bookshelf would tell you), I see someone like you as someone overly cynical, not willing to accepet a certain possibilities because it fails to make something look bad. As far as I cen tell, you're coming into this discussion, saying something that paints "the big evil corporation" as holding out on customers, and feeling smug and edgy about it. But is there any proof besides what your gut is telling you? Sure, they probably have a broad idea of what the "advanced" force rules are going to look like, or the talents/abilities the jedi classes are going to get, but I'm not sure I agree that they've worked out a finite XP value to equate them to EotE characters, or the finer points about how much soak/stress they can suffer. As I raised earlier, its entirely likely the Jedi won't operate under the Obligation system as it is set up in EotE, which is used to create a farily central part of EotE's narrative for the PCs (its a system where PCs can gain starting benefits for their characters at the cost of eventual roleplaying penalties, and it helps set the stage for certain scenes by having the obligations of certain PCs rear its head during play).

But can you really claim they're sitting on the rules and just holding off on publishing with a straight face? I'll end once again by saying the EotE beta does a pretty good job proving such rules are not 100% ready.

KommissarK said:

No. The best way to make a system for playing Jedi is to make a system for playing Jedi, not a system for something else and hope you can bolt on superpowers at a later date.

What successful examples of retooling a system for a radically different genre can you think of?

ErikB said:

Obviously, the success of the 40k line is questionable, but Deathwatch made a reasonable stab at improving power level greatly in a system initially scaled for far weaker characters. Yes, the DW characters could outshine in combat, but comparably skilled/equipped characters from the "weaker" games could hold their own.

My players quite enjoyed the Deathwatch game I ran and that was mixed 50/50 DH/Ascension characters and DW characters. Also, realize that the vast majority of those that are "40k fans" are space marine fans. The fact the start of the current 40k rpg line did not include PC space marines is similar to what we're seeing here. And in that setting, space marines are leaps and bounds more capable than your average human.

Also, "The best way to make a system for playing Jedi is to make a system for playing Jedi" might be partly true, I think you're mistaking the goal. Either that, or you are trying to prove that you don't care about non-jedi playstyles. Maybe you think I want to play X only, but my goal is to have options for X, Y, and Z. People don't want just a system for playing jedi, they want a system for playing Star Wars. FFG has come to the conclusion that Star Wars is big (a reasonable, but elegantly simple conclusion) and have decided to break it up into clear and distinct aspects. Their goal is not to create a system for jedi, but a system for star wars. And to do so, they appear to think that starting from the bottom end of the scale is best.

So tell me, what is the best way to create a rule system for Star Wars? Starting from the top or starting from the bottom?

I'm quite certain I am going to be dissappointed no matter what at the end of the day, because its quite clear this system is geared towards "heroic" characters in the setting (e.g. the destiny point system strongly implies the PCs are inflenced by the light side, and the GM has control over the dark side), and a stormtrooper/imperial game falls outside of that category. So know that I am accepting the liklihood that the game I want, won't even come out.