Donovan Morningfire said:

Ah, I see. My bad.

You might be right about the force sensitive thing, although could you specify what you mean by "covering" more? I guess you mean talents/specialisations in addition to powers, but I'm unsure.

Could a tweak of your XP discount, still be worded as "career specialisation" ? I mean, I haven't done the math, but I'm unsure which one is the "best". If its the second specialistaion it doesn't matter I assume, but if its the third or above I think it would.

So a revised version could look like this:

Miraluka

Brawn 2
Cunning 2
Presence 2
Agility 1
Intellect 3
Willpower 2

Species abilities:
Wound threshold: 10+Brawn
Strain threshold: 10+Brawn
Starting XP: 100 (or 90 considering the force sight bonus plus access access at decreased xp to spec?)
Special abilities:
Force sight: Miraluka do not have eyes, instead they rely on perceiving the world through the force. This functions in most respects as normal vision, except in areas void of the force, like a Yalamiri bubble or on a Yuuzhan Vong starship (and within buildings) – where the Miraluka will be considered blind. Since they do rely on the Force to see, normal visual impairments like smoke, fog and darkness to not apply - removes any setbacks dice from such environmental effect. They still cannot see through barriers like doors and walls. Add 2 (or 3?) setback dice to notice Ysalamiri bubbles, Yuuzhan Vong and the like in a normal force induced environment. Other force sensitive beings, particularly trained ones, will appear clearer, stronger.

Natural force affinity: While not all Miraluka receive training, they have a natural sensitivity to the Force. Miraluka therefore consider the Force-sensitive Exile specialisation (or other Force-based specialisations) as career specialisation(s). (As per the Week 4 update).

 Amanin
Species Abilities
Wound Threshold 13 + Brawn
Strain Threshold 10 + Brawn
Starting XP 90

Special Abilities
Redundant Organs
Because of their redundant systems and organs, Amani gain -10 to all Crit rolls made against them.
Roll
While tucked into their species "roll" position, the Amani may travel two range increments with the expenditure of 1 maneuver. The Amani must spend one maneuver to enter the "roll" position but emerging from this position is an Incidental activity.

Characteristic Ratings
Brawn 3
Presence 2
Intellect 1
Cunning 2
Agility 2
Willpower 2

Originally from Maridun, the arboreal Amanin hail from a tribal culture. Their customs are based on stories passed through generations by Lorekeepers.
Amanin are tall, standing 2 to 3 meters with muscular hoods that flare out from their ribbed necks. The typical colors for Amanin are yellows and greens, often with unique mottled patterns where their green hoods meet their yellow belies. Though lithely built, the Amanin are strong, with elongated arms offering them superior leverage with most handheld weapons or tools. Likewise, their gargantuan hands make grappling with them an unwise proposition. Their legs are much smaller than the standard humanoid. The hoods run down their backs, tapering to a small tail.
Amanin are curious but tend to be shy in crowds outside of their own tribes. The race has proliferated the galaxy and found purchase among many cultures and worlds throughout the Outer Rim. On some Mid-Rim factory worlds, the Amanin are used for physical labor, often as slaves under the Empire.

LethalDose said:

My only issue with this analysis is that I think that a pre-selected skill is worth much less than a floating one.

If I am a Wookie and get a rank of Brawl for free, but I am not planning on using brawling much, that skill is not very useful for me. The human, however, gets to choose his two skills, which allow him to be a number of different character types, and to supplement his careers.

For example: I have a character who wants to be a Technician who is also good with a vibro blade; now, if I go Wookie then I only get the brawling skill, but if I go human I could grab Melee. The choice of Wookie here is fairly irrelevant, and only chosen to make the point, that being that the human has a big boost, in that he can choose what skill is best for him and take it, rather than having to find a race that gives it to him. Note that just spending the xp is also superior, as it allows you to choose what skill you want (If you are pricing them as the first rank of a non-career skill, then if I were to just get the experience I could get 2 career skills for that same price.).

Now talents are a bit different, because, if you aren't in the right specialization you can't get them at all. So if a talent is one you couldn't normally get, that talent really costs at least 15 (career specialization) but possibly 25 (non-career specialization) points. This makes the free talent varying in xp cost, depending on what specs you have. However, a talent that is chosen for you is still less effective than a talent that you can just choose, if you could just choose any 5 point talent in the game, that would be crazy useful for getting talents that you would otherwise not get, as you could essentially be saving 25 points worth.

3WhiteFox3 said:

This is a prime example why relying solely upon math to determine "game balance" is a bad idea.  Creating a species really is more of an art form than anything else, as even the best attempts to "codify" building a new race or species are going to be prone to abuse if reliant solely upon creating a zero-sum balance.  I certainly had to eyeball a lot of stuff when writing a number of the new species found in Galaxy at War and Unknown Regions for Saga Edition.  Some I got right (Squibs seem to have been very well received, particularly by the Squib fanbase), some were a bit off (Yuzzem being one of the more prominent offenders if WotC forum posts were any indication), and I'm sure the other Saga Edition developers did likewise for their species write-ups.

Donovan Morningfire said:

While I agree that math alone cannot create a system that is perfectly balanced without sacrificing appeal to the majority of gamers (perfect balance isn't possible in my opinion). However, I do believe that math can be used as a guideline, a good quote that I read somewhere is that no RPG survives contact with the players. The players will ALWAYS see things that the developers never foresaw. But, that doesn't mean that trying to find a way of defining a balanced race is bad, in fact it should be done so that we can have an idea of how to best build races. I just want to help by pointing out that there were places where the formula could be improved. It should also be noted that I have a decently long history with optimization, and that balance, (including mathematical balance) can happen, as long as you only expect reasonable balance.

Reasonable balance being something that allows players to choose different characters that all can have fairly equal impact on play. No one option should completely over shadow another. However, all options are not created equal. For example, Wookies make far better unarmed combatants than a Twi'lek will, and for that reason few people will make a Twi'lek brawler. (This makes story sense as well, since very few Twi'leks will be willing to work past their natural weaknesses. While, on the other hand, Wookies have brawling as a central part in their culture.) I believe that this is an acceptable break from balance, but does not mean that balance is unnecessary or unattainable. 

Donovan Morningfire said:

So you accuse my thanks of being petty, condescending, and a back-handed insult.  You do it in private, while posting a more upstanding public message. And then you back-handedly say I'm the one who lacks decency…

I guess I should appreciate that this time you showed me the "decency" of doing it in public.

I can't speak for JegerGryte, but I think its safe to assume at least one of the reasons he's more willing to find common ground with you and "agree to disagree" than I am is because he never received a "go fuck yourself" PM from you for saying "thanks".

As far as posting my write-ups here, why would I?  The write-up I posted before this happened received no feed-back.  And all I got after disagreeing with you and explaining why was your bile.  Being specific and citing evidence is not nit-picking.  I've spent the last few years TA'ing biostatistics courses; I have to show grad students where they went wrong, which requires an eye to detail and the willingness to walk them through the process step-by-step. I use this logic anywhere I'm trying to explain something, but I guess you found this offensive when I applied the approach here.

For the record, though, I agree with 3WhiteFox3 that perfect balance simply isn't possible.  Numerical analysis shouldn't be applied until after flavor is established, but then can be very useful for tweaking the product.  As a GM, I have CharOp monsters at my table.  The best way I've found throttle their shenanigans is to make sure the rules I allow into the game are as well balanced as possible so I can concentrate on the narrative.

Anyway, its explicitly and implicitly clear you're aren't interested in what I have to say in this thread.  So I'll just shut the fuck up now.

-WJL

Donovan Morningfire said:

The way to do this with the FFG rules is that they get an upgrade on any Discipline checks made to activate force powers. Not sure how balanced that is, but it's the same idea as the WotC "free force training" in FFGs system.

gribble said:

That's a solid idea, and has the added benefit of being easy to implement as well.

 Snivvians

Species Abilities
Wound Threshold 10 + Brawn
Strain Threshold 11 + Brawn
Starting XP 100

Special Abilities
Thick Hide
Millennia of evolution in the harsh environment of their home world has selected a thick, toughened skin for Snivvians. This thick skin grants protection from extremes of temperature, removing one setback die from dice pools that are negatively affected by temperature extremes.

Inured to Hardship (Graduate from the School of Hard Knocks (or The University of Adversity))
Snivvians begin play with a free rank in a Knowledge skill of their choice to reflect the learning from the hardships that have plagued their race and their ability to process and utilize these lessons learned. This specific Knowledge skill is still limited to two ranks at the time of character creation.

Characteristic Ratings
Brawn 2
Presence 2
Intellect 2
Cunning 2
Agility 2
Willpower 2

Snivvians originate from the planet Cadomai Prime, an inhospitably cold winters. The Snivvians spent millennia of these seasons developing their craft and canon of artistic expression, often influenced by their strong beliefs in the Blood Code. The Blood Code, a genetic protocol that many Snivvian civilizations have adopted over their history, has alternately protected and destroyed Snivvian cultures.

Snivvians are a hardy species, with thick, porous hide and sparse hair covering the tops of their heads. Their height is near the standard range of humans and they have spread across the galaxy with a wide range of occupations and affiliations.

 Advozsec

Species Abilities
Wound Threshold 10 + Brawn
Strain Threshold 10 + Brawn
Starting XP 100

Special Abilities
Survivors
Advozsec gain 1 free rank in Survival. Starting ranks are limited to two ranks in this skill.

Lowlight Vision
Advozsec may remove 1 setback die from dice pools that are negatively affected by low levels of light.

Characteristic Ratings
Brawn 2
Presence 1
Intellect 2
Cunning 3
Agility 2
Willpower 2

Advozsec are humanoids with large, dark eyes to see through the haze of the ash-covered skies of their home world. They are hairless, have pointed ears, and most have a single, thick horn that grows from the top of their heads.
The Advozsec have built their culture around deep analytical thinking. They are skeptical by nature and many presume their cold logic is indicative of sinister or uncaring beings.
The Advozsec are native to Riflor, a harsh, volcanically active world where catastrophes are a common occurrence and only a clearly defined plan will allow the survival of their race. They carried this philosophy with them to the stars.

Toydarian

Species Abilities
Wound Threshold 9 + Brawn
Strain Threshold 10 + Willpower
Starting XP 100

Special Abilities
Flight
By regulating the gases in their bodies, Toydarians can attain flight. It is their preferred mode of movement, though they can walk on their legs as well. Their small wings and webbed feet help guide them in flight and allow for quick maneuvering.

Shrewd
Toydarians begin the game with one free rank in a social skill of their choice. The chosen skill may not be raised above Rank 2 at character creation.

Characteristic Ratings
Brawn 1
Presence 2
Intellect 2
Cunning 2
Agility 2
Willpower 3

Toydarians are a small winged species from Toydaria. They have webbed feet at the end of their stubby legs and short, stubby trunks that dangle over their wide mouths. The males have small tusks.

Flight has determined Toydarian culture throughout its history. Flight represents safety from ground bound predators. The metabolic necessities of flight have caused wars over food supplies throughout Toydarian history. Negotiation and outright con artistry are a normal part of Toydarian interaction and has avoided wars and secured foodstuffs in more civilized times. Toydarians have turned these tactics to dealings with other species as they have spread out into the galaxy. Such tactics have led many species to stereotype Toydarians as greedy and mercurial.

Stacie_GmrGrl said:

>.>

Rancor (Henchman)
Massive and terrifying, the Rancor is a natural engine of destruction, capable of destroying vast swathes of his surroundings if it so chooses. Even the most well equipped hunters and sportsmen think numerous times before tracking one of these beasts.

Brawn 8
Cunning 1
Presence 1
Agility 1
Intellect 1
Willpower 1
Skills: Brawl 2, Perception 2, Survival 2
Talents: Durable 2, Feral Strength 3, Knockdown (can spend triumph to knock a target prone after a successful attack), Lethal Blows 2
Silhouette: 3
Soak/Defense: 12/0
Thresholds: Wound: 60
Equipment: Massive Claws and Teeth (Brawl; Damage 12, Critical 3; Range [engaged]; Concussive 1, Pierce 2)

Big, mean, and can cause some worry to small starships that get too close to it. Also, should definitely cause some pretty massive fear checks. Happy hunting.

Cyril said:

Yeah, I really don't want to have Valin come within the same planet as one of these suckers, not without at least a few hundred more XP under his belt

really surprised that nobody's done these yet:

Arkanian

Arkanians considered themselves the pinnacle of evolution, and as such many were distinctly arrogant. Arkanian scientists had been experts in genetic manipulation for millennia, and by the time of the Mandalorian Wars the species had been split into many sub-species, making it hard to determine exactly what was a baseline Arkanian. Most Arkanians could pass for Human, though the majority had pure white eyes and four clawed digits on each hand.

Arkanians were capable of seeing in infrared light, and their eyes were sensitive to sources of extreme heat. This was helpful on their dark and frigid homeworld, but when traveling offworld, many were forced to wear blinders on planets with hotter, younger suns. It was also not unusual for an Arkanian to enhance themselves with internal or external cybernetics, or in some cases both. It was also standard practice for many of the Arkanians to undergo further genetic manipulation on their own bodies, enhancing themselves even further and better than lesser species.

Species Abilities
Wound Threshold 10 + Brawn
Strain Threshold 10 + Brawn
Starting XP 100

Special Abilities
Darkvision: Arkanians remove all setback die caused by darkness from their dice pools.However, an Arkanian exposed to bright light without protective goggles gains one setback die on all skill checks.

Flash of Genius: Arkanians gain one boost die to all Intellect-based skill rolls.

Characteristic Ratings
Brawn 2
Presence 1
Intellect 3
Cunning 2
Agility 2
Willpower 2

Arkanian Offshoots were a sub-species of the Arkanian race produced by the famed Arkanian scientists and genetic researchers, bred to excel at specific industrial tasks such as mechanical or technical work. One particular sub-species were bred as workers for the famed Arkanian gem mines. These people had five-fingered hands and Human-like eyes. Jarael had pointed ears due to the Sephi origins of her "father," Arca Jeth. This race was especially vulnerable to minor Arkanian illnesses. The Offshoots were treated as second-class or non-citizens by the baseline Arkanians, and the question over what to do with them was termed the "Offshoot question." Arkoh Adasca planned to use Adascorp's genetic engineering expertise to solve the problem in a generation. However, his grandfather Argaloh Adasca attempted to exterminate the Offshoots with a plague that ravaged those at old age.

Species Abilities
Wound Threshold 9 + Brawn
Strain Threshold 11 + Brawn
Starting XP 100

Special Abilities
Talent Bonus: Offshoots start play with one rank in the Intense Focus talent.

Specialized: Offshoots gain any one of the following as a class skill: Astrogation, Computers, Mechanics, Medicine, Pilot, or Xenology.

Characteristic Ratings
Brawn 2
Presence 2
Intellect 2
Cunning 2
Agility 2
Willpower 2

Donovan Morningfire said:

So, following on this thought.

Natural force affinity would, instead of decreasing force specialisation costs, increase one ability die to proficency die when making a check to activate a force power? Or add a boost die? Thoughts?

Considering the nice bonus from the force vision ability, I'm leaning towards an [A] to [P] upgrade - I guess that's what's meant with an "upgrade". It's more balanced than adding a boost die I would think, considering the amount of data on these boards on the issue between upgrading or adding a die.

Which basically leaves anyone wanting to play a non-force using Miraluka with one (very useful) ability. Hm. I'm still not sure about whether to give them 90 or 100 starting XP with the previous version of the affinity ability, and this one is also kind of nice, unless you're not going to use it. I think I am leaning towards 100 starting XP.