deadlyhammer said:

exactly what I tried to say… albeit poorly, as usual.

deadlyhammer said:

It's a matter of interpretation IMO. Shurkien weapons can just as easily be seen as very advanced crossbows.

The problem is that the fluff regarding Moritat's weaponry is somewhat sketchy and the intent behind it is not entirely clear (to me at least).

They can use crossbows, so apparently they don't disdain 'point&shoot' weapons.

They can use mono&power weapons (athough they don't apply tearing with the power field on), both more advenced technologies than let's say gunpowders so they don't limit themselves to low-tech weapons.

LordBlades said:

Moritat are not anti-technology. There's nothing stopping a Moritat from using high-tech pieces of equipment like synskin or night-vision goggles. They're anti-gun, however, because they believe that murder should be committed with a blade to ensure the kill is consecrated to the Emperor. They allow bows and crossbows because they acknowledge that sometimes a murder must be committed at range, and guns don't require as much skill nor do their projectiles have a sharp edge. Shuriken weapons are xenotech, so they're heresy by default, and even human archeotech weapons would go against the Moritat creed by taking the skill out of the kill.

Moritat should not be allowed to use guns; they should be melee/stealth specialists. If you want to use a gun, play a Son of Dispater or a regular assassin. That's what they're for. Drop Bear is a cad for trying to give guns to Moritat because he's completely missing the point of them. The Reaver fluff is pretty bad too; the Moritat should be self-policing. If you're so set on having a gun-wielding assassin go after the Moritat, then the Moritat would be more likely to send in an assassin from an outside organization to prevent the murder being traced back to them (and would be much cheaper than maintaining archeotech or xenotech firearms). In general, it's a terrible idea.

As for the Rapid Fire talent, I'd make it -10 BS per new target. So it's +0 to hit one target, -10 to hit two separate targets, -20 to hit three separate targets, and so on. This prevents gun-wielders from mowing down every enemy in the room but still allows a skilled gunman to take on three enemies or so with a decent chance. It also makes degrees of success easier to determine as a side-effect.

That said, there are some advanced weapons a Moritat could use, like the Stake Crossbow, (GM approval needed though per game) to combat certain kinds of heretics, the Cadence Widower Dart Caster (EM Crossbow for bladed darts) and the Hypo-Pistol (Syringe Darts for non lethal takedowns), the Moritat do have options, but they are overall weaker, harder to use and limited. They can bend their code a bit in a full on Emergency, but if you try to push it too far it just gets silly and as GITMASHA said, be a dispater or you know, just a normal assassin and just have fun.

The problem as I see it, if we start allowing this kind of weaponry to Moritats, then suddenly needle-guns are okay… and then maybe bleeder rounds for a gun… and then you end up with normal assassins suddenly.
The Moritat path imo is for people that want to get up close and personal, so one shouldnt try and powergame it to new heights of awesome ranged combat too, since they already shine in close combat :)

Faern said:

Pretty much exactly this. It goes against the spirit of what the Moritat are supposed to be.

Yeah, I can see them using a couple of the "grey area" weapons (Cadence Widower for one), but trying to give them every kind of weapon just isn't kosher

The moritat is a specific death cult that is devoted to killing in the name of the emperor with the use of cutting or piercing melee weaponry. Crossbows seem to have become a concession to this fact, but it remains that they can use ANY weapon but if it falls outside of their sharp/piercing melee weapon remit then they have to pass a WP test.

Trying to justify them suddenly using anything different is both absurd and disheartening. The rules as exist for them all for any permutation of character - if you are obsessed with wielding a shuriken catapult to shred your targets while you close with them, then fine but you need to spend 500xp to elite advance the Exotic weapon training and pass a WP test each time. Thats simply the only way to do it.

Houseruling the moritat to be anything other than what they are is an excersice is munchkinism, minmaxing and basically just trying-to-have-your-cake-and-eat-it syndrome.

Kasatka said:

Tehnically I think you are wrong. The Moritat need to make a WP test 'to use any weapon lacking an “edge” in combat (thrown blades, knives and arrows are fine) unless they obviously have no chance of harming their enemy otherwise'. By this rule, a gun shooting 'thrown blades' (and it takes a fair amount of ill-will IMO to say a shuriken is not a thrown blade) can be used by the Moritat without an WP test.

Now as far as intent goes, I completely agree it wasn't intended for the Moritat to use Shuriken Catapults. Hell, personally if I was GMing or playing a Moritat I wouldn't even allow crossbows (I see absolutely no difference in principle between a crossbow and any other gun that shoots bladed projectiles) but as far as RAW goes I believe they can use them.

So a lasgun isn't kosher, but a lasgun with attached bayonet is? The bayonet has an edge, therefore the weapon does!

I would allow crossbows for Moritat, but crossbows are rubbish anyway, excepting the Witch Hunters' stake crossbows. I prefer a composite bow, and even then I don't use it nearly as much as my sword. Mono arrows/knives are not cheap. Shuricats are right out; they're xenotech, and xenotech is heresy.

Primitive ranged weapons suck anyway. A Moritat is better off just buying a decent sword or axe and getting in close.

I know, I was kidding about the bayonet thing. The concept of an archeotech shuriken catapult does not sit well with me at all, though. Shuricats are the signature Eldar weapon. It doesn't seem right to give humans (especially Moritat) access to it under the justification of "It's archeotech and therefore okay". What's next, archeotech Gauss weapons?

Even if they do exist, they're still guns, and therefore go against Moritat dogma. So there.

I am normally a conservative Moritat..  there for I need to ask what about a Ballistic Knife?

I do see them allowable for a Moritat under the same rule as crossbow, but wanted to hear others thoughts?

It's an Edeged Weapon, it Injurs and Kills by vertue of it's edege, it's Kosha to many sub sects and Grey to others just like the X-Bow, Bow, Blade Discs and sutch.