One of the things I remember from the Realms of Chaos books was that Imperial forces had access to the Mark of the Star Child, who was described as the 'good' Chaos god that is/was/will be formed from the Emperor. Since Malal does not, and officially has never existed, it occurs to me that much of the attributes that would have been assigned to him are floating free. 

Why not have them floating around as the 'flipside' of the worship of the Star Child? On the one hand, the Star Child (if he is ever born) is going to be working towards order and stable psychic humanity, but on the other hand He will also be working to stamp out Chaos and safeguard humanity. Sort of like the dichotomy between the various mendicant orders and the Knights Templar; or better, the almost split personality of the Knights Hospitaller.

Of course, for that to ever come about, there must be a critical mass of faith (such as that which precipitated the eldar Fall), and I rather like the idea that the Ministorum has (possibly accidentally) been misdirecting all the faith and psychic energy the Emperor would need. Instead of building up to form a new god (the Numen, a god for New Man?), it has kept the soul of the Emperor trapped in his corpse. I believe that if the early split between the Inquisitors had played out the other way, and the (proto-)Thorians/Horusians had managed to switch off the Throne and 'kill' the Emperor, there would have been a new one born (all that shamanic power, still fused together, along with whatever power gained along the way). However, because the Emperor has been a corpse for the past ten millennia, the souls of those who created him are fragmenting. Someone who manages to get into direct psychic communion with the Emperor may find only one of those fragments, and believe the Emperor is still hale and whole in there, or they may find several, with the result being the sort of thing Jaq Draco encountered- apparent madness...

If the Throne were to be switched off 'today' I'm not sure whether the trapped souls of the shamans will merely increase the number of powerful psyker births, or if the misdirected faith, denied its focus (BTW Kage, 'foci' is the plural), will coalesce into the Dark and Terrible chaos god the Illuminati and Sensei Knights fear.

Actually, speaking of the Sensei Knights, it's possible that those are 'merely' the souls of shamans who have escaped the Many-Mind post-mortem, and been reincarnated Thorian style as a partial avatar of the mighty power of the Emperor...

Koolzoid said:

I lkie the post heresy explanation, fits the mood of the setting. Pre heresy i see a man like caesar- driven to conquer and a facade of nobility while really wanting to gather power to himself. The actions of pacification at all costs point to someone who does not want free will in his subjects just compliance.

Once again, replies to multiple discussants forces me to the ugly reply system...

Alasseo said:

Why not have them floating around as the 'flipside' of the worship of the Star Child? On the one hand, the Star Child (if he is ever born) is going to be working towards order and stable psychic humanity, but on the other hand He will also be working to stamp out Chaos and safeguard humanity. Sort of like the dichotomy between the various mendicant orders and the Knights Templar; or better, the almost split personality of the Knights Hospitaller.

That is, in essence, what the Child and the Twin represent. The Child maintains the more positive side of the fight against Chaos as represented with the normally "positive" writings about the Emperor-as-New Man. On the other hand, what the people of the Imperium worship, and what is perpetuated in the Emperor's name, does not really gel with what we are given to understand of the Emperor. Hence, worship of the Emperor fuels the Twin—what is "moral" for the Imperium does not necessarily equate to the absolutist concept of "morals" that lines up against the absolute evil of Chaos.

Alasseo said:

the souls of those who created him are fragmenting. Someone who manages to get into direct psychic communion with the Emperor may find only one of those fragments, and believe the Emperor is still hale and whole in there, or they may find several, with the result being the sort of thing Jaq Draco encountered- apparent madness...

Indeed, I have long since viewed the Watson's "Many Mind" approach to be not the Emperor per se, but rather the fragmenting gestalt of the "Shaman Synergy" after they lost the keystone soul that was the Emperor. Well, that and all that psychic energy, hence I was rather fond of the discussion in the day on Portent where Brusilov suggested that the Sacrifice is there to create a pseudo-soul that allows the "Emperor" to continue with his Overwatch... Well, I think that it's a cool idea!

Alasseo said:

BTW Kage, 'foci' is the plural...

It was late, and there was a bottle of red wine involved, thus my brain inserted "to concentrate on something"... When my brain eventually caught up, I'm afraid the 5 minutes had passed so I was unable to edit it. Stupid forum quirk.

Alasseo said:

Actually, speaking of the Sensei Knights, it's possible that those are 'merely' the souls of shamans who have escaped the Many-Mind post-mortem, and been reincarnated Thorian style as a partial avatar of the mighty power of the Emperor...

That's actually a surprisingly unique idea, or at least one that I haven't come across before. Kudos. Have to think about that one and how it might relate to the premise of Saints, Astropaths, and other daimons...

Lochmoigh said:

Pre heresy i see a man like caesar- driven to conquer and a facade of nobility while really wanting to gather power to himself.

And just how would you represent that in terms of a focus for an RPG interpretation of the Emperor?

Since we seem to be sticking primarily to views and interpretations of the Emperor – rather than how this might play out in Dark Heresy or the more broader "40k RPG" games — how would people here begin to stat out a pre-Heresy Emperor? For example, the God is fairly easy since you just make him physically very powerful, "head and shoulders above the Primarchs," since in the common imagery of the 40k universe size does matter, focus more on the combat abilities, strategies, etc., and less on those that would be covered by the Scientist or the Trickster. But what else?

Kage

Kage2020, if I had to try and define my Pre-heresy vision of the Emperor with a 'focus' of sorts, I'd probably choose the term 'Paragon'.  For me, the Emperor (prior to taking a one-way trip to La-La-Land) was simply the best that Humanity had to offer - almost, if you like, the next Evolutionary step.  He'd unlocked the full potential of the human mind to transcend and control the Warp and was going to use it for the betterment of all Mankind.

We all know how that turned out for him.

I still think he's 'alive', but like I said, not in the sense that we would really understand it.  There's still something in the Universe that considers itself the Emperor of Humanity, even if it's a non-Euclidean psychic entity anchored to a rotting sack of meat in a big golden coffin, infesting the minds of every human being in the galaxy with his rabid facist paranoia, and with a standing mandate to bring any *other* psychic to him for him to *directly* infect (lest they become a threat to him) and to kill any who won't submit themselves to his 'conditioning' - or 'sanctioning', as he likes to call it.  Guess that kinda neatly gives another explanation as to why Psykers get treated the way they do :)

So, Post-Heresy focus for the Emperor from my perspective?  Hmmm... "Insane Psychic Disease" too unfocussed?  How about just 'Madman"?

Koolzoid said:

Thanks for actually taking a focus, erm, even if it wasn't in the same vein and was, in fact, the very thing that I was trying to avoid (i.e. an approach to the Emperor that makes him the best at everything).  But cool nonetheless.  It does answer the thread title! 

(If that came off as sarcastic, it wasn't meant to be.)

Koolzoid said:

Fair enough. If anything, it would seem that he was not the "next Evolutionary step," but rather a hiccup to evolution—a psychic construct in a (normal) human body.  With siblings and everything.

Koolzoid said:

Doesn't the come with the territory of being the New Man?

Koolzoid said:

What about the last part of the previous message?  How would you represent your Paragon in RPG terms?  (And let's not take the "I wouldn't" stance.  This is just for the theory/building fun. )

Kage

The one Pre-heresy one you missed was the Explorer; the Golden Throne is in fact on a Warp Gate. The reason he's on top of that is that before the Hearesy he sent exploration teams to build gates on planets. This plan failed though because of the daemons which would come out of the gate. now he is on the Throne Keeping the remenants ot the Human Webway portals intact and protecting humanity at the same time. Though as the Millenia have gone by the Tech Adepts of Mars have finally found a fault in the Throne that will eventually kill the Emporer. that beside he also had to explore the galaxy for his lost sons- the Primarchs- in the Great Crusade. So this Emporer would focus on the ways of travel and finding information

grey slayer said:

I didn't miss it!  I blatantly ignored it! 

Further, I never started the phrase "Too much Merrett, very little merit."  Nooo...

Sorry, I need to get to bed... Black Friday in five hours and I've got to drive into Wasington D.C.  Scary biscuits.

Kage

The reason I, personally, favour the 'Paragon' approach to the Pre-Heresy Emperor is because of the need for Tragedy (capital T) in a Gothic-esque setting.

Thus the tragedy plays out at it's fullest by looking at our setting and letting it be everything the Pre-Heresy Emperor would have railed against.

The setting of DH is beyond mere dystopian - we're living a jackbooted nightmare of fear and hatred that holds a bolt pistol to the throat of Freedom (and of course, as Acolytes of the Inquisition, that's *our* Bolt Pistol.... let's not fool ourselves, we're Orwell's Bad Guys here).  Carrying on the whole '1984' thing, fear and ignorance are indeed our watchwords and there is no hope for a better tomorrow - merely a fear of a worse one.

Against this I paint My Pre-H Emperor - a wonderous being, a beacon of hope for Mankind, not a God - for that would place him in the Divine and beyond the ken of mortal Man - but still a man, the best, a person every human in the Galaxy could trust in.  Noble, proud, gallant, heroic - and that's before you throw the whole 'King of Psychics' mantle around his shoulders.  However that happened (and it's so far lost in the mists of time that, frankly, you could choose anything from making him a mutant like the Mule to some kind of Warp-accident - it's your game, who's going to contradict you?  Certainly not GW, at least not until they want you to buy something from them), the Emperor didn't let his psychic powers ruin him (yet!).... instead, he used them to further his pure and honourable goals to benefit all Mankind.

And look where it got us.  Tragedy, see?

Emperor incapacitated.  Empire schisms.  Power falls on the shoulders of people not equipped to handle it.  Human frailties win out.  A broken Emperor witnesses, in a psychic, omniscient way, his dream falling apart.  Emperor prays for death every minute of every day.  For centuries.  He has nothing but his hope of death, his memories of betrayal, and the knowledge that every day the Empire he built is decaying a little more.  Emperor goes insane, and loses conscious control of his abilities.  Like a beacon, waves of psychic insanity pulse from Golden Throne, a dark scratchy voice in the back of a million, million minds, whispering hate, whispering fear, urging obedience, suffocating hope.  For 10,000 years our ancestors have shared in the dream of the Emperor, borne mute and unknowning witness to the twisted nightmare that plagues his immortal mind.

We are the shattered mirror, held up to the Emperors hope of a Better Tomorrow.  The stars themselves would not be enough tears, had he but eyes to shed them.

Koolzoid said:

Fair enough.  I always felt that the tragedy was in his very human frailties and fears, such that the story didn't matter if he were 10' walking God or 6' human (ish).  Of course, you can be a paragon without being physically puissant, so that does become a valid focus without going down the route of attributing to the Emperor everything under the sun. 

Getting back to the last question, though, how would Paragon differ from God, Scientist, or Trickster.  Trickster might be somewhat easier, since the focus there is on a more capricious and manipulative figure, but both God and Scientist could quite readily subscribe to the same sort of concepts that might apply to Paragon.  So, where is the difference, if any?

Koolzoid said:

I just had a flasback to the "Life is pain, highness" quote from The Princess Bride. 

Koolzoid said:

Very poetic. 

Kage

As to why 'Paragon' should be different... in my eyes at least... a God, truly, is something unknowable, beyond the true comprehension of the race that worships it.  That race ascribes the term 'God' to it purely to label something ephemeral, to place a label on the focus of their Faith.  So the Emperor as God is to make him apart from, not a part of, Humanity.  My Pre-Heresy Emperor is very much Human.  A God is feared, a Paragon is admired.  A God pulls, a Paragon leads.  Humanity acts in the name of God.  A Paragon acts in the name of Humanity.

Paragon vs Scientist?  Well, that comes down to motivation.  Both might be the same person, physically and mentally, capable of amazing feats and the results of those feats advance Mankind.  But the Scientist wants knowledge, his creations are either the goal itself or steps towards further creations, further discoveries, more knowledge.  That Humanity benefits from what he does is almost a side-effect.  A Scientist is driven to answer questions, solve riddles, provide explanations to miracles, produce wonderous objects - to expand the boundaries of That Which Is Known.  A Paragon may also do all these things, but the discoveries and the creations and the knowledge are inconsequential - what he does is only judged by him in terms of how it helps others, of how it advances Humanity as a race.  When they both make a terraforming device, the Scientist will say "I can colonise worlds with this!"... the Paragon will say "We can colonise worlds with this!".

Koolzoid said:

Did you not say that the Emperor was human, not a God.  Thus surely you're talking about how he is perceived rather than what he actually was, or was made into by those perceptions.  Basically, your average Arthur figure, both in terms of the literature (who he was and who he was perceived to be), and perhaps the reality (the various ways that he is looked at through literature, history, and archaeology).

Koolzoid said:

Rather well said.

Koolzoid said:

This comes from the limitations of my descriptions, since I see Scientist as a nurturing focus.  It's more passive than the aggressive God, who leads overtly and almost aggressively (perhaps the closest to your Paragon as far as I can make it, just without the stupendous [-ly silly] physical abilities), whereas the Trickster leads through manipulation, and less charisma or even righteousness.

So, perhaps a semantic difference more than anything else, since the other part is character/personality.

Kage

Semantics perhaps, yes - but their are connotations inherent in the labels as well that bespeak their differences.

As a term, 'Scientist' speaks of knowledge, of logic, of understanding.  Whether a Scientist imposes a spell of Order upon the Universe, or seeks to understand the Chaos inherent in the Universe, their senses are out and ahead, looking forwards.  A Scientist only looks behind him to learn from the work of others, and I don't really see the Pre-Heresy Emperor as needing to learn a lot (in terms of pure Science) from the rest of Humanity.

Similiarly, as a term, 'Paragon' speaks more of virtue - of heroism.  The Paragon isn't focussed on forging ahead, whether it be in terms of Galactic conquest or Scientific advancement - he is focussed on leading his people.  He is a beacon to Humanity, a guiding light by which they can find their place within the Universe.  He often looks behind to see that his people are well cared for, and looks ahead only to take them somewhere new.

We are looking for our own 'truths' about the DH history here, with regards to the Emperor - but irrespective of what that truth is, how would Humanity have viewed him at the time, all those millenia ago?  Would some have questioned his motivations?  Almost certainly.  Would some have marvelled at what he achieved?  It would be hard to imagine otherwise.  Would some have admired him and yearned to be like him?  The 'cult of personality' concept would believe this to be true.  Would some worship him and pray to him?  Yes, I believe they would.  To these people, he would have been Trickster, and Scientist, and Paragon, and God, and probably other things beside.  But would any of them know 'The Truth'?  Not at all.  Because 'The Truth' (that Truth that we're essentially discussing in this thread) has no bearing on what he achieved and where it led him.  All 'The Truth' will tell us is why he did it.

A Paragon does it because he must.  A Scientist does it because he can.  A Trickster does it because he wants to.  A God.... well, a God probably doesn't even realise he did anything special in the first place.  After all, who are we mere mortals to discern, let alone comprehend, the motivations of the Divine?

My Pre-Heresy Emperor was a hero to Mankind.  My Post-Heresy Emperor is a plague upon Humanity.

I know this is terribly non cannon but Ive often wondered, post heresy, if the emperor hasn't been replaced wholesale by one of the C'tan or prehaps is becoming akin to one of them. But then im not sure he's eating quite as many psykers as he used to. Still I like the idea of an ancient god becoming fat and lazy of the backs of humanity (who just serve themselves up!) as its cousins try fruitlessly to exterminate all life. And it would explain where the hell those C'tan blades that Callidus assasins carry come from (if they've ever explained that I must have missed it)