Oh, I overlooked that FAQ 2.6… but I'm not sure if this means that I can't choose this option. Even if I had 0 hand cards and therefore had no hand, the effect would just fail, I think. But it should still be possible to choose the discarding option, since neither my hand nor hand cards are targets according to FAQ 1.5…

 Idk, i find those "cant trigger" rules quite arbitrary. I see no clear rule here. Anyone knows better?

After reading through this thread and the FAQ entries regarding a player's hand (section 2.6) and choosing multiple targets (section 2.14), I'm confused on when Apeirophobia can be legally triggered.  Hopefully you guys have it all sorted out.

Example:

My opponent has 2 cards in his hand.  I play Apeirophobia and target a 3-skill character with terror.  My opponent can't choose to make his character go insane, so he must discard.  However, he doesn't have 3 cards in his hand.  What happens?

Apeirophobia reads "That character's controller chooses… or discards X cards from his hand.  X is the skill of the chosen character."

The card specifically says "choose" and doesn't include "up to" in the text.  Therefore, does the following section from the FAQ apply:

"Any card effect that involves choosing multiple targets (including choosing multiple cards to draw or discard, or choosing multiple tokens) can only resolve if the exact number of targets, cards, or tokens can be chosen."

Does this mean the effect fails, or does X inherently mean "up to" so my opponent discards as many cards as he can even if it's not the full amount?

If Apeirophobia only works when the exact number of cards can be discarded, why wouldn't an opponent opt to discard (even if the target character could go insane) as long as they don't have the right number of cards in their hand, thus making the effect fail without any consequence?

Apeirophobia says: "discards X cards from hand" not "chooses [and discards] X cards".

There is "choose" but it refers to insane or discard. Not to choosing specyfic cards.

When player chooses discard option, he doesn't choose a set of X cards and then discards them (well, he does choose the cards, its just "discard X cards" is not  "choose and discard X cards" effect)

Thats why this FAQ fragment does not apply and you do as much as you can. At least thats how i think it works based on what i understnand from earlier Apeirophobia discussion with Penfold on some thread. Maybe it should work differently… idk… and kind of hate such wordings, but i slowly live it down… especially with "your operation phase only" errata IMO Apeirophobia is really situational card used for gaining card advantage if opponent does play sth big and T proof. Limiting it even more doesn't make much sense to me, it is quite hard to make use of already, but if played right it does limit opponents options, and even not played forces your opponent to play all he has, or not play big guys.

I agree, you would have to discard as many cards as you can - keeping a small hand will not cancel the effect.

Though Apeirophobia does say choose to either make a target character go insane or discard X number of cards, whichever you pick also implies that you choose to do something - in this case discard.  The FAQ clearly states that means an exact number of cards.

Anyway, I don't fully understand how you guys came to your conclusions (CoC rulings often get the better of me), but I'll go with it.  Otherwise Apeirophobia becomes a fairly useless card.

Choose in the FAQ quote does not apply. The FAQ is clear about cards being drawn or discarded individually, and that only when you are told to choose them as a set do they count as a group. In this case since it does not say choose and discard X cards you discard up to that number, regardless of how many you have in your hand.

 9. What is printed skill when there is X printed. 0 or what effect defines?

From:
http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/CoC/CoCCards.html/_/the-rituals-of-the-order/aspirations-of-ascension/yha-nthlei-statue-aoa?st=0#comment_7665
I dont really know so i ask here.

Good question.

By intuition, I'd say X is just a placeholder for the definition on the card (e.g. Elise Warren) that specifies X exactly, so printed skill = 2 if 2 insane characters are in play.

But reading the FAQ, I come to another conclusion.
FAQ 2.11 makes it clear that if no effect defines X, X is 0.
FAQ 2.7 states that "printed" refers to the value physically printed on the card (= without any modifying effects like on Ocean Crawlers). Since the effect for Elise Warren is just a passive effect like the one on Ocean Crawlers, it should also not be taken into account for "printed skill", therefore X = 0 by FAQ 2.11.

If nobody else knows anything, I think it's best if you send in a rules question…

Well, as everyone knows X is ten in roman numerals, so their skill would be ten because that's what's physically printed on the card :)

No, really, it's a better idea to ask and get an official answer.

dboeren said:

Haha…  Right, we have overlooked that!

Printed X is just that X. X is not greater or lower than any number since it is a variable and not a number. Unless there is an entry in the FAQ that states when a variable is being examined by an effect looking for a printed value is considered to be zero, it will only return back the ink on the card (as all printed checks return a null on an insane card.

TL;DR

X is not a printed number so the return is null for any effect seeking to target or effect a card with a value of greater or lower than a set value.

FAQ says X is considered 0 when not defined by effect, not a null, so I'm not buying that yet…

But 99% you're right, so I start to wonder :) … hmm I guess with no other rule your answer makes the most sense… guess i did buy it. Thanks.

I still don't get this way of thinking, but it does work. Hmm i wonder would I ever think of this this way. Its so counterintuitive for me to think about skill X as outside printed skill framework. I still think of printed skill as some base skill of character rather than a characteristic not all characters have.

 It has a printed skill though, you are correct there, but that printed skill is not a number so it can neither be more or less than any given number, meaning it does not compute.

Printed literally refers to the ink on the card. The printed X is not a number. Full stop. Nothing else can be determined. This is exactly the same situation when a card checks the printed anything of an insane character. Sure we have a way of determing what the actual skill is on an insane character, but that is defined by the rules, not the number printed in the skill box (which in the case of an insane character, even the skill box is rule defined and not printed on the card for reference).

10 Dimension Rift is triggered with Forgotten shogoth in play. Where do the cards go?

Can you choose to destroy them so all before shoggoth go to bottom of the deck and shoggoth and all next characters go to normal discard pile? Or all guys go to discard piles?