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Budgernaut said:
ArcticSnake said:
This thread again? hahaha.
So what if Luke's card said: "When defending this round, you may change one of your "EYE" results to a[n] "EVADE" result."? Know what? Let's call him Luuke. What makes Luuke's wording different from Luke's "When defending, you may change one of your "EYE" results…"? Can you really say that the two differently worded abilities play the same?
Let's say Luuke and Luke get's attacked with the cluster missile.
It's pretty clear that Luke's "When defending, you may change one…" would allow you to change one "EYE" to an "EVADE" per attack. But how about Luuke? How would his "When defending this round, you may change one…" interact with cluster missiles?
My summary: Cluster missiles = two attacks, one crit
Problem with your counter example: Luke has a constant ability, not an action, so he has no need to specify a duration. If it was instead an action that had to be used, then that wording would indeed give him one evade per attack.
Right. It's not "this round" alone that limits the cluster missile to one attack (for that interpretation), it's combining the "one [critical hit]" with "this round" giving you "one crit per round". No other card mentions a single anything (that I'm aware of) so both interpretations make sense to me, whether it be one crit on each attack, or one crit between the two. I really think this one just needs a ruling.
I'm not sure I know what you mean by saying that "no other cards mention a single anything" but every other time a present participle has been used on the cards, it has been usable more than one time. "This round" is on the card text to clarify that the effect ends at the end of the round. Let me list the cards where this is the case for you:
Garven Dreis
Luke Skywalker
Wedge Antillies
"Dutch" Vander
Horton Salm
R2-D2
R5-K6
"Backstabber"
"Dark Curse"
"Howlrunner"
"Mauler Mithel"
"Night Beast"
"Winged Gundark"
*Marksmanship (contentious, I know)
That's literally every card that's worth points in the game that uses a present participle to designate when the card's effect happens. I didn't leave any out (that I know of). Notice how every single one of them is usable more than once? Are you really saying that Marksmanship is the only card in the game whose text uses a present participle but can't be activated more than once? Really?
When this point of view is proven right, the smugness will be intoxicating. Too bad the card itself itself isn't even that good anyway.
After mulling it over a lot and weighing all the arguments for and against it, I'm changing sides. I now believe Markmanship applies to all of Cluster Missiles' attacks with the possibility of changing a focus to a crit per attack.
If a card ability appears which would grant a pilot three or more attacks, Markmanship would apply to all those attacks as well, giving the possibility of changing a focus to a crit per attack.
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ShadowJak said:
Budgernaut said:
ArcticSnake said:
This thread again? hahaha.
So what if Luke's card said: "When defending this round, you may change one of your "EYE" results to a[n] "EVADE" result."? Know what? Let's call him Luuke. What makes Luuke's wording different from Luke's "When defending, you may change one of your "EYE" results…"? Can you really say that the two differently worded abilities play the same?
Let's say Luuke and Luke get's attacked with the cluster missile.
It's pretty clear that Luke's "When defending, you may change one…" would allow you to change one "EYE" to an "EVADE" per attack. But how about Luuke? How would his "When defending this round, you may change one…" interact with cluster missiles?
My summary: Cluster missiles = two attacks, one crit
Problem with your counter example: Luke has a constant ability, not an action, so he has no need to specify a duration. If it was instead an action that had to be used, then that wording would indeed give him one evade per attack.
Right. It's not "this round" alone that limits the cluster missile to one attack (for that interpretation), it's combining the "one [critical hit]" with "this round" giving you "one crit per round". No other card mentions a single anything (that I'm aware of) so both interpretations make sense to me, whether it be one crit on each attack, or one crit between the two. I really think this one just needs a ruling.
I'm not sure I know what you mean by saying that "no other cards mention a single anything" but every other time a present participle has been used on the cards, it has been usable more than one time. "This round" is on the card text to clarify that the effect ends at the end of the round. Let me list the cards where this is the case for you:
Garven Dreis
Luke Skywalker
Wedge Antillies
"Dutch" Vander
Horton Salm
R2-D2
R5-K6
"Backstabber"
"Dark Curse"
"Howlrunner"
"Mauler Mithel"
"Night Beast"
"Winged Gundark"
*Marksmanship (contentious, I know)
That's literally every card that's worth points in the game that uses a present participle to designate when the card's effect happens. I didn't leave any out (that I know of). Notice how every single one of them is usable more than once? Are you really saying that Marksmanship is the only card in the game whose text uses a present participle but can't be activated more than once? Really?
When this point of view is proven right, the smugness will be intoxicating. Too bad the card itself itself isn't even that good anyway.
First off, I was one of the first supporters of the interpretation that you get to turn a [focus] result to a [critical hit] result on each attack with Cluster Missiles, so we're on the same side. But I am adamant that all stances on this issue at present are opinions only, not merely because no official word has been given, but because both interpretations are completely logical.
None of the cards you listed are actions, so there is no expectation that they should end. Marksmanship does not belong on that list because it is not an ongoing effect, it is an action with a defined time limit. The only other card I can find that has a similar delimitation of time is R2-F2, whose ability only lasts until the end of the game round in which its action is performed. Therefore, R2-F2 is, in my opinion, the best card to use for comparison with Marksmanship. However, R2-F2 is pretty clear in giving you +1 agility for the whole round, no matter how many times you get attacked. Marksmanship is not so clear. Does the ability to change one [focus] to a [critical hit] apply to "this round" with the phrase "when attacking" only there to clarify that you can't change a [focus] to a [crit] when defending or using another ability, -or- does the one-[focus]-to-a-[crit] apply to each attack, with "this round" telling you that the effect ends at the end of the round?
R2-F2 would have the same problem if it said something like, "Action: Until the end of the round, increase your agility by 1 and you may reroll 1 blank result when defending." Then we'd wonder if we can reroll a blank each time we defend, or once per the entire round, but we'd all agree that the +1 agility lasts the entire round. It's just like how we agree that all [focus] results can be converted to [hit] results with Marksmanship, but it's just not clear how many critical hits you can get.
For my part, though I side with a crit per attack, I think the only thing clear about this card is that it is ambiguous.
Budgernaut said:
ShadowJak said:
Budgernaut said:
ArcticSnake said:
This thread again? hahaha.
So what if Luke's card said: "When defending this round, you may change one of your "EYE" results to a[n] "EVADE" result."? Know what? Let's call him Luuke. What makes Luuke's wording different from Luke's "When defending, you may change one of your "EYE" results…"? Can you really say that the two differently worded abilities play the same?
Let's say Luuke and Luke get's attacked with the cluster missile.
It's pretty clear that Luke's "When defending, you may change one…" would allow you to change one "EYE" to an "EVADE" per attack. But how about Luuke? How would his "When defending this round, you may change one…" interact with cluster missiles?
My summary: Cluster missiles = two attacks, one crit
Problem with your counter example: Luke has a constant ability, not an action, so he has no need to specify a duration. If it was instead an action that had to be used, then that wording would indeed give him one evade per attack.
Right. It's not "this round" alone that limits the cluster missile to one attack (for that interpretation), it's combining the "one [critical hit]" with "this round" giving you "one crit per round". No other card mentions a single anything (that I'm aware of) so both interpretations make sense to me, whether it be one crit on each attack, or one crit between the two. I really think this one just needs a ruling.
I'm not sure I know what you mean by saying that "no other cards mention a single anything" but every other time a present participle has been used on the cards, it has been usable more than one time. "This round" is on the card text to clarify that the effect ends at the end of the round. Let me list the cards where this is the case for you:
Garven Dreis
Luke Skywalker
Wedge Antillies
"Dutch" Vander
Horton Salm
R2-D2
R5-K6
"Backstabber"
"Dark Curse"
"Howlrunner"
"Mauler Mithel"
"Night Beast"
"Winged Gundark"
*Marksmanship (contentious, I know)
That's literally every card that's worth points in the game that uses a present participle to designate when the card's effect happens. I didn't leave any out (that I know of). Notice how every single one of them is usable more than once? Are you really saying that Marksmanship is the only card in the game whose text uses a present participle but can't be activated more than once? Really?
When this point of view is proven right, the smugness will be intoxicating. Too bad the card itself itself isn't even that good anyway.
First off, I was one of the first supporters of the interpretation that you get to turn a [focus] result to a [critical hit] result on each attack with Cluster Missiles, so we're on the same side. But I am adamant that all stances on this issue at present are opinions only, not merely because no official word has been given, but because both interpretations are completely logical.
None of the cards you listed are actions, so there is no expectation that they should end. Marksmanship does not belong on that list because it is not an ongoing effect, it is an action with a defined time limit. The only other card I can find that has a similar delimitation of time is R2-F2, whose ability only lasts until the end of the game round in which its action is performed. Therefore, R2-F2 is, in my opinion, the best card to use for comparison with Marksmanship. However, R2-F2 is pretty clear in giving you +1 agility for the whole round, no matter how many times you get attacked. Marksmanship is not so clear. Does the ability to change one [focus] to a [critical hit] apply to "this round" with the phrase "when attacking" only there to clarify that you can't change a [focus] to a [crit] when defending or using another ability, -or- does the one-[focus]-to-a-[crit] apply to each attack, with "this round" telling you that the effect ends at the end of the round?
R2-F2 would have the same problem if it said something like, "Action: Until the end of the round, increase your agility by 1 and you may reroll 1 blank result when defending." Then we'd wonder if we can reroll a blank each time we defend, or once per the entire round, but we'd all agree that the +1 agility lasts the entire round. It's just like how we agree that all [focus] results can be converted to [hit] results with Marksmanship, but it's just not clear how many critical hits you can get.
For my part, though I side with a crit per attack, I think the only thing clear about this card is that it is ambiguous.
You shouldn't give up this amount of smugness just to be a level-headed and reasonable human being. It's going to be great.
R2-F2's effect happens during the round regardless of being attacked and doesn't require anything else to happen such as die rolls. The cards I listed all used present participles to define when the effect takes place and it is obvious that the effect can be triggered more than once (or else all of those cards would totally suck).
It isn't really a big deal because the card isn't even that good. 3 points and using an upgrade slot for something that is only marginally better than an offensive focus doesn't make sense to me. The only time it is significantly better (1 crit or 2) is with Cluster Missiles and that is a one use attack anyway.
Like I implied, I'm just in it for the smug.
Hi there: They have finally covered the issue in their FAQ (the actual pdf document can be directly accessed here )
To quote their ruling:
Q: If a shipuses the Markmanship action and attacks with Cluster Missiles, does the Markmanshhip effect modify both attacks?
"Escape is not his plan. I must face him, alone."
Hi there: They have finally covered the issue in their FAQ (the actual pdf document can be directly accessed here )
To quote their ruling:
Q: If a shipuses the Markmanship action and attacks with Cluster Missiles, does the Markmanshhip effect modify both attacks?
A: Yes. The Markmanship effect modifies each attack made by that ship during the round, including the effect on changing one {eye} to a {crit damage}
and in continuation:
Q: If a ship spends a focus token when attacking with Cluster Missiles, does the focus effect modify both attacks?
A: No. The focus effect modifies a single attack.
That should clear it up once and for all
"Escape is not his plan. I must face him, alone."
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