Jegergryte said:

I was thinking this whilst walking the dog.  For starting characters just let them pick 6 skills and have a free rank in each.

We could then tie talent trees to skills and let starting characters choose two talent trees that relate to these starting skills?

And then spend xp to increase any skill and to buy talents on those two specific trees.

I would probably introduce the opportunity to buy new talent trees when a character increases a rank in a linked skill?

This would keep character creation and progression relatively simple and free-form but the book could have lots of career/archetype suggestions on types of skill/talent tree combinations for new players to choose from if they wish?

It would mean some rationalisation of the talent trees but we have another thread for this.

Being a veteran WEG player, I agree with a lot of what is being said here. Give each character 6 skill ranks and the choice of 1 spec for talent trees, maybe two. I was also thinking that each spec should have one "iconic item" that a character gets for free if it's their starting spec. A medpac for a doctor, blaster carbine for a hired gun, tool kit for a mechanic, etc. Tinkerer specs could even start with one free attachment for their gear, possibly even with the chance to roll for one free mod before gameplay begins.

After that, keep it simple for purchasing new skills, 5 x new rank; or even 5 x current rank, with a 10 XP cost for rank 1.

Just throwing that out there.

-EF

Jegergryte said:

Well, I suppose they could stick with that. To be honest, I hadn't even noticed that they had removed the 3 spec. limit. I'm glad they did!  But I would still stick to my thought of the same cost for all specializations. The increasing cost per spec. would end up being prohibitive enough, I'd think, to go beyond three or four specs. I mean, since you get repeat talents in many trees, the benefits of taking more than a few would have diminishing returns when compared to the cost.

I really do think that this method of character generation would solve a lot of issues, both current and potential, in one fell swoop.

So then.

If we could sum it up.

This idea is that we scrap the current notion of careers. What comes in the rulebook is then some suggested archetypes, combinations of specialisations that might work well together.

As GoblynByte summed up, updated with the additional ideas, these archetypes can be used as presented in the book (ie the current careers), or more experienced players can create their own archetype. Pick 4 skills which get 1 rank, and then pick a specialisation, add 1 rank to two of the listed specialisation skills - of course this could be optional if the player prefers two other skills, but some limitation isn't bad I think. So either 4 with 1, then 2 with 1; or 6 with 1 if opting out the specialisation skills. I kind of like the 4-1 and then 2-1 limitation, it gives specialisation a bit more to say on initial skills and training.

Anyways, onwards. The first specialisation is free, the second costs 10 and third costs 15 XP - these constitute your archetype (or career if you will) - any further implication of this could be interesting to explore.

If opting out career skills, which I am assuming in this summary, specialisations only give access to talents - the initial specialisation can also grant an item fitting the specialisation as suggested by EldritchFire - I love that idea. Further specialisations, ie the next two (and any after that) only give access to more talents - which I think is a good reward really. No free skills (as per current rules) and no new career skills, as these are abolished.

Any specialisation beyond three could have increased costs, 10 x the total number of specialisation including the one being bought, so fourth costs 40, fifth 50 and so on. Expensive, as it should be. Although (as this forum tells me about new posts when I try to post) keeping the price the same, might as well work. It depends on what sort of implications combined talent trees (ie career/archetypes) could have. So let's say I have pilot, slicer and assassin - these three constitute my career or archetype - could these three then give me certain bonuses? penalties? I know, its a whole new can of worms… might as well keep the lid on it…

As there is no more career skill, I think all skills should cost 5 x rank bought. The old non-career skill xp cost could also be used, but its a bit steep I think. Of course, one detail during character creation could be that those initial 6 skills are cheaper to increase, during character creation only. That way further skill increases could cost more, ie 5 x rank +5. Include EldritchFire's skill cost idea here might be worth a closer look I think, I like that new skills cost a bit more, although I'm not sure 5 x current is the way to go, but that might be a good idea. So skill pricing is not settled, but doing away with career skills might be a good idea, especially if increasing the cost of the first rank in a new skill bought.

In the instances where a player wants to have two ranks in a starting skill (similar to when the current career and specialisation skill overlap) that is okay, but limits the number of starting skill accordingly. So if a player decides to have two free ranks in lets say pilot (space) he is left with only 5 starting skills, with only four which he can increase further. I know, a glitchy idea, needs a bit more work. We might just have to drop the notion all together of two free ranks in a starting skill - I know I won't cry over that.

I have not ventured into the idea of lupex of tying specialisations/talent trees to skills and let characters in that way "qualify" for a talent tree… but it might be a good way to go. I have not explored the idea thoroughly yet, so I'm not going to say anything more about that than "I think it begs further inquiry and exploration" - in other words, I find it intriguing.

DISCLAIMER: This summary is of the posts I have understood and which I have seen as "linked" in my understanding. I might have overlooked some people's input - I apologise for that, it was not intentional. I see a reference to WHFRP, I have no experience with that game - although the notion seems similar to the other suggestions, at least in the same spirit. Please add more ideas. And above all discuss and create!

 Hi,

I've just read through this and am finding it incredibly useful. I'm working on a related issue - trying to tidy up the specialisations into thematically groups of talents - and I think that the two ideas work well together to allow a lot more flexibility in character creation. Details are here if you are interested: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=323&efcid=46&efidt=723629&efpag=0#725732

Jegergryte said:

I'd recommend keeping career skills. At character generation the Archetype provides 8 career skills and any additional specialization adds 4 more career skills. You get 4 points to add to your archetype career skills and 2 more points to add to the career skills provided via your first specialization. The cost to increase them is cheaper for career skills and more expensive for non-career skills. In other words, this would not change.

If the player decides to design his own archetype, he gets to name the archetype and decide which 8 skills he wants to have as his main career skills and can put 4 skill points in them. He then gets 4 additional career skills per specialization and 2 skill ranks for the first (as per usual).

Again, the only change I am suggesting is removing the non-career specialization cost and adding a paragraph or two about designing your own career (or archetype, if that term would fit better). Some terminology and organization might need to change to make the ability to create careers a little more "core" to the experience. But otherwise everything else would be pretty much unchanged.

GoblynByte said:

I should add that this is exactly how it was done when designing a template in the old D6 system. You were supposed to list the skills that were most appropriate for the flavor of your character. The only difference then was that these listed skills did not provide any discounted cost over any other skill. They served more as a guide for developing your character. So with this method there would be a more mechanical aspect to picking your career skills, but I don't imagine there will be too much of an opportunity for abusing that customizability.

So the existing careers in the current book would become suggested archetypes with the list of 8 career skills already chosen. The specializations then become suggested specs. for the theme of that archetype. They would take on a form exactly like the templates listed in the back of the old D6 books. Accessibility is preserved for the inexperience, flexibility is obtained for the veterans, and flavor is maintained for everyone.

GoblynByte said:

So basically your suggestion boils down to keep the system as is except drop the additional cost for non-career specs but keep the inflated cost for non-career skills.

And, allow a player to design his own career and spec with gm approval which is already inherent in any rpg?

I prefer the idea of dropping the notion of career skills, and removing the structure of choose a career then choose a spec.  If you take these things away then it truly becomes a classless system.  The only issue then becomes, what do we do with talent trees (eg how do we get them, but this could be covered by a flat xp cost to buy access to a new tree but you get one/two for free at character gen)

I do like the idea of archetypes but the system as is has these split across careers and specialisations, lets just cut this down to suggested careers, which would include Smuggler, Scoundrel, Thief and Pilot without the artificial separation.  Each suggested career would have a number of skills listed and the player gets to increase 6 by one rank and each suggested career has a couple of suggested talent trees.

This would simplify the 'create your own career' option by just saying pick 6 starting skills to increase by one rank at character gen and then pick one/two starting talent trees.

I would then allow any skill to be increased using the same xp cost, depending on ranks etc.

One thing that WEG did well was KISS and this would emulate that quite well.

Right.

Keeping the career skills is an option - I'm pro removing them, but I'm not going to make a big issue out of it. Its just that I find career skills to be limiting and more of an obstacle than anything else - with a few exceptions of course. I prefer the old WEG normal skill, specialisation of a skill - and then the real expensive and hard to get advanced skills (I think it was called that anyways). Akin of RMSS' occupational, everyman, normal and restricted skills…

Either way, I think non-career skills (if these are kept) should cost 5 x rank bought +5, as opposed to 10 x rank bought.

Additionally I think that specs beyond the first three could cost more, particularly if keeping career skills… and if we tie in talent tree combination "perks" or something… I like that idea, although I have no idea of how to implement it without breaking things.

Either way, keeping career skills or not, I think this idea - created by you guys not me I'm just plugging for it and trying to sum it up in some way - is really good. I have yet to read up on the overhaul of talents trees thread properly. Although it does address a related issue that is definitely needed, with this change or even if the game stays within its current box of careers and stuff.

Jegergryte said:

I think in this system the easiest way to specialise in skills is to buy talents that allow you to do new things or to focus on things that you can already do?  And the advanced part is for when you buy 25 point talents?

Jegergryte said:

But do we need specs?
 

lupex said:

Talents can certainly serve as further specialisations of skill I think yes - like stalker for example, it adds boost to stealth, skulduggery and surveillance. It's a specialisation through a talent I guess you could say.

As for needing specialisations in their current form? Perhaps not, but I think talent trees are nice. If these are tied to skills or concepts is a question that I'm not sure what I think of. I guess it depends on how you want to treat archetypes/careers of the players. I like it somewhat, to have specs - if only to supply a certain type of talents and not skills. It adds flavour you could argue…

If we tie talent trees directly to skills, we need more talent trees (although they could be smaller than the current form), and they should change substantially. Or what do you think?

I think a lot of fantastic work has been done in the existing specializations, talent trees, and careers. While I enjoy the greater flexibility of a "pure" point-build system without the rails of classes, it can't be denied that classes - however mechanically superficial they may be - inject a lot of flavor from the setting. They also play very well with the generalized market of gamers. They're quickly digestible and make it accessible. It just looks sexy to have a full page "class" outline with a large, shiny, artist's rendering of what that class could look like.

So I don't see any value to throwing the baby out with the bathwater and completely scrapping the existing framework of categorizations. The specializations and talent trees can exist as they are. Simply changing the cost structure for non-career elements will open it up to unfettered flexibility.

And, keep in mind, we may be much too far into the design process for any of this to be of any use. Modest, efficient changes are probably more likely… if even that is possible.

I agree that what GoblynByte suggests is the easiest and perhaps the best solution. The talent trees vary in quality for sure, but they are interesting and cool. In addition if you could construct your own career/archetype by mixing and matching between all of them, your politico-assassin-thief is going to be really cool.

I would like to see career skills go out the window though, but even keeping them: add if at all possible, talent-tree combination perks (for the three first only) OR/AND add a starting item for each specialisation… perhaps a pick between two - the assassin could get the choice of disguise kit or a weapon he gets ranks for using… and with talent trees beyond the three first have increased cost (I really don't know WHY I want that, but I do… for some reason related to "fairness" or something…)… as the three first define you archetype, or is based upon an already existing archetype/career.