Absolutely correct. The Bolt weapons are almost mythical when it comes to weapons and as Santiago pointed out they're very much a status symbol. And its not unheard of either, in the real world there are tons of examples of things that are far more expensive than their counterparts and feature only a very minor bump in performance, if ANY bump at all.

The real world comparison isn't really applicable, we are talking about a weaponized cutting laser versus a automatic mini rocket launcher.

I've felt that every weapon, except for most SP weapons are in need of more than a couple of tweaks. But we like to emphasize cover, and armour rather than toughness.

Its probably a pulsed laser.

The Bolter is not made to deal with heavy armour, but utterly devastates most things in guard flak or light carapace. I think part of the deal is that there's some thresholds where a weapon actually is effective, as opposed to one just a wee bit weaker.

If we look at three different targets, with minimum, average[we'll say 6 for the lasgun and 7 for the boltgun] and maximum damage off an overloaded lasgun [1d10+5E AP2] and boltgun [1d10+5X AP4]. This gives us values of 6/11/15 AP2, vs 6/12/15 AP4 respectively:

Man in AP4 Flak with Tb2 with 8 wounds

Lasgun: 2/hit minimum, 7/hit average, 11/hit maximum.

Boltgun: 4/hit minimum, 10/hit average, 13/hit maximum.

Against normal folks or cultists, both will average two hits for a kill against the target, though the boltgun generally puts a low-wound target into the early criticals with a single strike.

 

Trooper in AP 6Carapace with Tb3 and 11 wounds.

Lasgun: 0 minimum, 4 average, 8 maximum

Boltgun: 1 minimum, 7 average, 10 maximum

Here, you'll probably need a fourth lasgun hit of average damage cause significant critical damage. The Boltgun on the other hand toppled the guy in two hits, and is unlikely not to have killed him with the third.

 

Rogue Trader with AP 9 and Tb4. 16 wounds.

Lasgun: 0 minimum, 0 average, 4 maximum

Boltgun: 0 minimum, 3 average, 6 maximum

Don't bother with the Lasgun unless there really is nowhere to run. Meanwhile, the bolt-weapon still works okay. its lowest rolls can be shrugged off, but on average you still actually stand a chance. At this point, Special Ammunition would probably improve your odds significantly, something a lasgun cannot use.

 

I'm not stating this is the real reason for how things are set, but I'm thinking the values chosen for output are as they are because one weapon can kill what the other cannot scratch, and with a modicum of efficiency at it. That lasgun was really getting pushed there after all.

Remember that 40k rpg goes with the assumption that bolt weapons are produced in two "sizes" - human and astartes, the human boltgun being a much weaker version adjusted for people who can't bench-press tons or have a recoil suppression system built into the armor.

Also consider that bolt weapons were initially designed (and are still used) as standard issue equipment for Adeptus Astartes, the most tactically flexible warriors in the entire galaxy. As such, bolt weapons are the Mario of imperial weaponry - overall solid, with no real high points, but no notable disadvantages either, and the broadest selection of specialized ammunition.

Personally, I'm perfectly fine with bolt weapons as they are right now. They offer a solid middle ground of stats, with a doubled chance of righteous fury. My whole group loves them deeply, and nobody ever felt cheated for taking a bolt weapon over any other category.

Aren't they ALL supposed to be .75 calibre, with the primary difference their range, capacity and rate of fire? Though certainly the quality of the ammunition could be varying a little depending on whom this particular pattern of bolter round is meant for…

@Kiton

No, the FFG interpretation of 40k has always maintained there's a mortal and an Astartes calibre of bolt weaponry. IMO, this makes perfect sense - why would you limit your genetic supermen to use weapons that can be wielded by mere mortals rather than making use of their superior capacity to absorb recoil and lug around ridiculous weights? "And with the mightiest guns they will be armed" indeed.

Kiton said:

The Dawn of War series of games stated that Astartes Boltguns are chambered in the .98 calibre and I've decided it makes sense. .75 is a monster gun for a human, but a Space Marine can whidstand a gun with a bit more "oomph".

Hellsing did the same thing, why give a 9mm to a creature with superstrength?

Ugh, I really didn't want to reply to this topic, but since the thread has arrived at justifications now I cannot resist pointing out a few things.

Cifer said:

First of all, Space Marines are not limited to just carrying boltguns. Secondly, in GW's version of the setting, bolt weapons simply do not have a recoil as powerful as you seem to believe. Thirdly, who says Marine weapons are not heavier? They could well be reinforced to better withstand the stress of close combat (where these guns may well be used like hammers), as well as generally being bigger and thus - similar to their power armour - having more space for more gadgets (see this cross-section from the 3E rulebook). Fourthly, why would you limit your genetic supermen to use ammunition that is solely available on their own homeworld and transport ships rather than being carried by nearly any Imperial Guard regiment and stocked in just about every Munitorum depot all across the Imperium?

JuankiMan said:

The ".(9)98 calibre" is a common misconception I've seen getting dragged around the fluff community across the internet for some time now. It stems from the 4E 'dex "model 998 boltgun". I did not see any such claim in DoW I, though it is of course not impossible that this carried over into some officially licensed product (I never played DoW2) - much like non-Triplex lasguns getting variable power settings is now carrying over into OW, even though this is against GW's own fluff as well.

All bolt pistols and all boltguns have always been calibre .75 in GW Codex fluff (and even the DW rulebook sticks to this calibre!). Never was there any mention that there'd be a difference - actually, some books specifically pointed out equality. GW's own Inquisitor RPG also offered only one line of bolt weapons for everyone, Astartes or no.
FFG, making use of artistic license and the fact that there is no such thing as a canon for 40k simply chose to go a different route and widen the power gap between normal humans and Space Marines - be it to make the latter even more awesome (similar to their portrayal in various novels) or simply to avoid the awkward situation that a Marine throwing a rock does more raw damage than if he'd use his gun (hooray for Unnatural Strength).

Of course, the recent buff for lasguns could justify "unifying" bolt weapon damage across the board again. However, since even the DH Core Rulebook had a fluff box about Marine weapons supposedly all being way more powerful than the "civilian" weapons that everyone else gets, I suspect it is a design philosophy independent from the actual mechanics and balancing, so even if bolters would be buffed as well I'd expect some sort of difference to be retained should Marines ever be introduced in OW (and be it just as NPCs).

As Lynata said, bolters are not .998 calibre. They are .75 calibre. They are Mark .998 (though as I believe that refers to the year of the creation of that mark, that should mean they are not out at the time of the 40k RPG line).

It wasn't just FFG. The first Space Marine bolter in Purge the Unclean (written by Black Industries) was just 2d10 damage (rather than 1d10+5). Apparently during the play test for Dark Heresy all bolters had done 2d10 damage, but for some reason it was decided to change them (I think to make them fit in the SP/las - bolter - plasma - melta power chain), but it was decided for their limited appearance in Dark Heresy that 1d10+5 was just a bit weedy for Space Marines, and so the Astartes bolter was born. Up until that point there was no suggestion ever that Space Marine bolters were physically more powerful than non-astartes ones. Slightly bigger, to compensate for the Marine's increased size, maybe, and made to a more exacting quality standard, but firing exactly the same round. Before this point simply having a weapon that was considered rare and special as a standard small arm was sufficient.

However, Dark Heresy stated bolters are .75 calibre. The Space Marine codex stated Space Marine bolters are .75 calibre, but Dark Heresy (and then Deathwatch) stated space marine bolt rounds were larger… The only way this works is if the bolt is longer, which is… less than ideal in my mind.

Personally I don't like the idea of the "Astartes Boltgun", so I was looking at unifying all bolters at 2d10. The only thing that kind of stopped me was that it would also mean rebalancing heavy bolters, plasma and meltaguns.

borithan said:

Perhaps 1d10+7, as a sort of "middle ground" between both types of bolters? A slight boost to get some distance to lasguns again, yet not enough to overpower plasma and melta weapons. Or, worst case, just take the middle ground for all those weapons as well. ;)

I'm a bit torn on the 2d10 idea - on one hand, it is certainly nice to have a solid minimum damage compared to just "2", but on the other there's Tearing - and even if you roll low a number of times in succession it could represent "overpenetration" … meaning the bolt going in on one end and leaving it on the other before detonating. Granted, they seem to have got a microsecond density-triggered fuse (at least if one were to interpret "mass-reactive" this way) … but perhaps then it could be a grazing shot or something.

I have to say I actually prefer the FFG interpretation of bolters in the sense that the Space Marines use larger guns and larger ammo.
Even if we accept that Bolters have no (or hardly any) recoil I still think it would make more sense for a group of muscled supermen to carry larger version of the weapons a normal human would carry. It's like an Ogyrn, why would you ever hand one an autogun if he could also wield an autocannon without any problems (I'm well aware that the average Ogyrn will use both as a club).
Furthermore its not like Space Marines will requisition ammunitions from the Imperial Guard. They are (or at least feel like) the 40k equivalent of Fiefdoms, Duchies and Knight Orders that are independend when it comes to their own weapons and arms but are allied with a few other Imperiums (namely the Imperium of Mankind and the Adeptus Mechanicus).

Musclewizard said:

Well, they do. They are called heavy bolters. ;)

Musclewizard said:

Not regularly, no. But they do accompany Imperial Crusades or fight alongside the Imperial Guard in various protracted warzones all across the galaxy. It would be awkward if they had to retreat because they run out of ammo.

"Lord Commander, regretfully I have to inform you of my Chapter's departure from the siege. It appears Brother Tech-Marine Cognatus just informed me we are short on ammunition, and in His wisdom the Emperor did not wish our forces to share supplies. Good fortune with your campaign, and always remember: divided we stand!"

Matter of interpretation, though. It's no surprise that personal preferences would differ, and for what it's worth, I do believe you have a point as well (regarding the larger weapons), even if personally I don't think it is good enough to brush away all the other explanations.

Thank you for pointing out that .998 was the year of manufacture, not the caliber of the weapon. Perhaps the difference is justified like in WWII, where both the Makarov pistol and the Mosin-Nagant both had 7.62mm rounds, but rifle rounds where longer and had more mass and proppelant charge making them more powerful. Anyway, I've always assumed that the charge within the casing propels the bolt outside the barrel where the jet ignites and propels the slug the rest of the way. With this metod, the initial charge shouldn't be that large, reducing recoil, but you're still firing a hiper-massive 20mm slug, and that's gonna have a kick no matter how you slice it. Perhaps not arm-dislocating strong as firing a conventional 20mm cannon by hand would be, but still powerful.

Also, Space Marine chapters are completely self-sufficient. They manufacture their weapons and ammo themselves and can do so aboard a Battle Barge, so there is no need to depend on outside supplies, and should the need arise, Techmarines should be capable of retrofitting local manufacturing facilities to suit their purposes.

 

Lynata said:

I don't think Space Marines would ever be engaged in a campaign of such length that they would seriously run out of ammo. I mean sure, they might be invovled in long campaigns but Space Marines aren't made for fighting front line battles. The are known for fast and surgical attacks compared to the Hammer of the Imperium and they arrive on ships full of chapter serves and storage bays. It's not like the Imperial Guards that are packed densly onto their Ships. Even the smallest of Warp-Capable Imperial Ships would be able to carry a chapter of marines with lots and lots of room to spare for ammo, gear and vehicles.

With regards to Heavy Bolters I'd still argue that there are (or should be at least in my head canon) two types of those. The one that is carried by two humans and the one that is carried by one space marine. Let's assume a heavy bolter is the same size, weight and uses the same calibre for humans and space marines. Since bolters have no (or hardly any) recoil the deciding factor to their size would be weight (both weapon and ammo weight).
The HB in OW weighs 40k.
Two Imperial Guardsmen are required to carry a single heavy bolter (at least from what I understand about Heavy Weapon Teams in the tabletop / DoW 1 and the carrying capacity of a soldier in OW) whereas a Devestator Marine carries a HB by himself. Now a Guardsman has to carry his armour as well whereas power armour carries itself (at least in DH power armour is described as effectively not weighing anything while powered).
I'd say a SM has a SB between 8 and 10 and a TB of around 8 (based on DW pregenerated Characters). Even with the reduced carring capacity of OW this would allow a SM to carry between 675 and 1350kg.
Carrying that Heavy Bolter isn't a problem for the Space Marine, so why not make a heavier varient firing larger shells?

The Death Watch Errata lists the Astartes HB at 68kg so I assume FFG thinks about this similarly, why use a small weapon if you could also use a larger one without any problems.

 I came up with the idea that the astartes bolt ammo was essentially like magnum rounds or something.