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Vorpal Sword said:
CPTMcMurphy said:
I understand that is nice to have a all purpose focus that you could use for anything. Especial nice when you can use it as a focus if you roll a lot of focus or a target lock when needed for a missile or proton torpedo. As for your oppenient knowing which ship you will be shooting at, it makes little difference since a decent oppenent is going to play defensive if he thinks he is in your fire arc.
You don't see an advantage in forcing your opponent's entire side to play defensively, as opposed to only the ship you're going to be shooting at?
because with the exception of assault missiles, the other missiles are more of a meh, if it hits ok, if it doesnt well im not surprised either. more than half the time, a normal primary weapon attack with target lock or focus is already comparable or way better than just the missile alone without any setup, and deadeye doesnt help with the setup at all since focus tokens only stay with you until the end of the turn, and you will need to target lock him anyway. put it this way: suppose you have one whole bunch of stuff and Howlrunner, you know for sure Howlrunner is goning to eat the missile anyway instead of random Academy TIE #3, and if you have one small bunch of elite stuff, it doesnt matter if Fel or Turr or Wedge or whoever is goina to eat the missile, you will still go ahead as planned anyway and do a simple exchange with him.
and as for the big ship discussion, the Firespray has genuine problems hitting stuff near the corners of the board, if that is what you are looking for. if you go to my practice run thread, you can see how dangerously close i came to the token at the corner of the board. if my Firespray were to get ionized or blocked by some random Academy TIE, it really is going to be in trouble
:>8o8<: Xwing
O=O=O Ywing
||-O-|| TIE
{=O=} TIE adv
Duraham said:
Vorpal Sword said:
CPTMcMurphy said:
I understand that is nice to have a all purpose focus that you could use for anything. Especial nice when you can use it as a focus if you roll a lot of focus or a target lock when needed for a missile or proton torpedo. As for your oppenient knowing which ship you will be shooting at, it makes little difference since a decent oppenent is going to play defensive if he thinks he is in your fire arc.
You don't see an advantage in forcing your opponent's entire side to play defensively, as opposed to only the ship you're going to be shooting at?
because with the exception of assault missiles, the other missiles are more of a meh, if it hits ok, if it doesnt well im not surprised either. more than half the time, a normal primary weapon attack with target lock or focus is already comparable or way better than just the missile alone without any setup, and deadeye doesnt help with the setup at all since focus tokens only stay with you until the end of the turn, and you will need to target lock him anyway. put it this way: suppose you have one whole bunch of stuff and Howlrunner, you know for sure Howlrunner is goning to eat the missile anyway instead of random Academy TIE #3, and if you have one small bunch of elite stuff, it doesnt matter if Fel or Turr or Wedge or whoever is goina to eat the missile, you will still go ahead as planned anyway and do a simple exchange with him.
I find what you've said to be true for X-Wings, but not so much for Y-Wings, A-Wings or TIE Advanced as they only have a base Attack of 2.
Deadeye gives you flexibility in target selection. If the target is still alive after the first ship fires on it, you have the option of attacking it with a missle. Otherwise, you'd either have to TL it and possibly waste that action if the first ship destroyed the target, or just Focus to hedge your bets and fire on the target with your primary if it survived the attack from your first ship. Further flexibility is gained because taking Focus is a common Action most folks perform anyway.
Now, maybe you don't value that flexibility, or maybe you don't feel it's worth a point, but there is a use for it and for some, that flexibility is definitely worth the one throwaway point that might have been spent on Determination or trying to get initiative instead.
Game strategies, tactical analysis, list critiques, painting & modification articles,much more for Star Wars X-Wing Miniatures by Fantasy Flight Games straight to you from the hippest pilot bar in the galaxy, TheMetalBikini.com.
Cid_MCDP said:
Duraham said:
Vorpal Sword said:
CPTMcMurphy said:
I understand that is nice to have a all purpose focus that you could use for anything. Especial nice when you can use it as a focus if you roll a lot of focus or a target lock when needed for a missile or proton torpedo. As for your oppenient knowing which ship you will be shooting at, it makes little difference since a decent oppenent is going to play defensive if he thinks he is in your fire arc.
You don't see an advantage in forcing your opponent's entire side to play defensively, as opposed to only the ship you're going to be shooting at?
because with the exception of assault missiles, the other missiles are more of a meh, if it hits ok, if it doesnt well im not surprised either. more than half the time, a normal primary weapon attack with target lock or focus is already comparable or way better than just the missile alone without any setup, and deadeye doesnt help with the setup at all since focus tokens only stay with you until the end of the turn, and you will need to target lock him anyway. put it this way: suppose you have one whole bunch of stuff and Howlrunner, you know for sure Howlrunner is goning to eat the missile anyway instead of random Academy TIE #3, and if you have one small bunch of elite stuff, it doesnt matter if Fel or Turr or Wedge or whoever is goina to eat the missile, you will still go ahead as planned anyway and do a simple exchange with him.
I find what you've said to be true for X-Wings, but not so much for Y-Wings, A-Wings or TIE Advanced as they only have a base Attack of 2.
Deadeye gives you flexibility in target selection. If the target is still alive after the first ship fires on it, you have the option of attacking it with a missle. Otherwise, you'd either have to TL it and possibly waste that action if the first ship destroyed the target, or just Focus to hedge your bets and fire on the target with your primary if it survived the attack from your first ship. Further flexibility is gained because taking Focus is a common Action most folks perform anyway.
Now, maybe you don't value that flexibility, or maybe you don't feel it's worth a point, but there is a use for it and for some, that flexibility is definitely worth the one throwaway point that might have been spent on Determination or trying to get initiative instead.
Ywings cant use deadeye so it's a bit of a moot point, and while i agree with the Awing, for the TIE advanced I do not really agree as you will, in theory, be going up against rebel ships which generally have lower agility values, so it balances out in the end.
and why do you still have missiles/torps on you for such a long time that you would need to factor in that 2nd point you made? Unless you are talking about your 2nd set of missiles/torps, which is only relevant on the Firespray and Ywing (which, again, cannot be equipped with deadeye anyway). With perhaps the exception of Assault missiles, I do not see any reason to hold onto the missiles/torps for such a long time that you have to consider using them in that weird scenario you mentioned. you just throw them out on the very first pass and hope it connects and deals some damage, no? Arent you afraid of your ship going down with the missiles/torps still attached and unused? even more so with wave 2, with how attacks are getting so much more fierce in comparison, and it's not like you could really benefit from some of the defensive upgrades like PTL or elusiveness either due to deadeye eating up the slot
:>8o8<: Xwing
O=O=O Ywing
||-O-|| TIE
{=O=} TIE adv
Duraham said:
Cid_MCDP said:
Duraham said:
Vorpal Sword said:
CPTMcMurphy said:
I understand that is nice to have a all purpose focus that you could use for anything. Especial nice when you can use it as a focus if you roll a lot of focus or a target lock when needed for a missile or proton torpedo. As for your oppenient knowing which ship you will be shooting at, it makes little difference since a decent oppenent is going to play defensive if he thinks he is in your fire arc.
You don't see an advantage in forcing your opponent's entire side to play defensively, as opposed to only the ship you're going to be shooting at?
because with the exception of assault missiles, the other missiles are more of a meh, if it hits ok, if it doesnt well im not surprised either. more than half the time, a normal primary weapon attack with target lock or focus is already comparable or way better than just the missile alone without any setup, and deadeye doesnt help with the setup at all since focus tokens only stay with you until the end of the turn, and you will need to target lock him anyway. put it this way: suppose you have one whole bunch of stuff and Howlrunner, you know for sure Howlrunner is goning to eat the missile anyway instead of random Academy TIE #3, and if you have one small bunch of elite stuff, it doesnt matter if Fel or Turr or Wedge or whoever is goina to eat the missile, you will still go ahead as planned anyway and do a simple exchange with him.
I find what you've said to be true for X-Wings, but not so much for Y-Wings, A-Wings or TIE Advanced as they only have a base Attack of 2.
Deadeye gives you flexibility in target selection. If the target is still alive after the first ship fires on it, you have the option of attacking it with a missle. Otherwise, you'd either have to TL it and possibly waste that action if the first ship destroyed the target, or just Focus to hedge your bets and fire on the target with your primary if it survived the attack from your first ship. Further flexibility is gained because taking Focus is a common Action most folks perform anyway.
Now, maybe you don't value that flexibility, or maybe you don't feel it's worth a point, but there is a use for it and for some, that flexibility is definitely worth the one throwaway point that might have been spent on Determination or trying to get initiative instead.
Ywings cant use deadeye so it's a bit of a moot point, and while i agree with the Awing, for the TIE advanced I do not really agree as you will, in theory, be going up against rebel ships which generally have lower agility values, so it balances out in the end.
and why do you still have missiles/torps on you for such a long time that you would need to factor in that 2nd point you made? Unless you are talking about your 2nd set of missiles/torps, which is only relevant on the Firespray and Ywing (which, again, cannot be equipped with deadeye anyway). With perhaps the exception of Assault missiles, I do not see any reason to hold onto the missiles/torps for such a long time that you have to consider using them in that weird scenario you mentioned. you just throw them out on the very first pass and hope it connects and deals some damage, no? Arent you afraid of your ship going down with the missiles/torps still attached and unused? even more so with wave 2, with how attacks are getting so much more fierce in comparison, and it's not like you could really benefit from some of the defensive upgrades like PTL or elusiveness either due to deadeye eating up the slot
Lols, my bad on the Y-Wing. Added that in on during a re-read before I posted and my mind went- "Y-Wings are attack 2 as well! Duh!" That's what I get for posting so late at night.
When I play Rebels, I do a 4-ship, split deployment kind of setup and I don't just scream forward at 4 towards that TIE pile, so a lot of times, no- there's generally no big initial pass in my games. I usually pick up my first TLs from a flank and usually outside of my arc as well.
I don't really see why the Advanced is different than the A-Wing in what you mentioned above just because Rebel ships have lower agility though. Can you elaborate on that?
I guess what I'm saying is Deadeye only costs a point and it triggers from an Action you're probably already declaring anyway. Admittedly, people shouldn't view it as some big deal, game-changing upgrade, but like many of the upgrades that aren't just flat out no-brainer, always-on options, I can see where it'd be useful for its cost. It's not a must-have, and I wouldn't get into a mindset where I'm going, "Oh, I've taken homing missiles on my Green Squadron A-Wing- MUST TAKE DEADEYE", but if I had a point left to spend and was reading back through my list, I'd throw it on there, sure.
Game strategies, tactical analysis, list critiques, painting & modification articles,much more for Star Wars X-Wing Miniatures by Fantasy Flight Games straight to you from the hippest pilot bar in the galaxy, TheMetalBikini.com.
Duraham said:
Vorpal Sword said:
CPTMcMurphy said:
I understand that is nice to have a all purpose focus that you could use for anything. Especial nice when you can use it as a focus if you roll a lot of focus or a target lock when needed for a missile or proton torpedo. As for your oppenient knowing which ship you will be shooting at, it makes little difference since a decent oppenent is going to play defensive if he thinks he is in your fire arc.
You don't see an advantage in forcing your opponent's entire side to play defensively, as opposed to only the ship you're going to be shooting at?
because with the exception of assault missiles, the other missiles are more of a meh, if it hits ok, if it doesnt well im not surprised either. more than half the time, a normal primary weapon attack with target lock or focus is already comparable or way better than just the missile alone without any setup, and deadeye doesnt help with the setup at all since focus tokens only stay with you until the end of the turn, and you will need to target lock him anyway.
I agree with you, and have written about the use and mis-use of missiles and torpedoes fairly extensively. But Homing Missiles change the equation, since they go out with no setup.
In fact I'll go further than Cid: I think if you have Homing Missiles on a low-skill pilot (i.e., the Green Squadron Pilot) and you can give them Deadeye, you're making a mistake if you don't. With any other combo--like Wedge in the thread title--it's definitely more of a "better than Determination" sort of upgrade, but on those pilots with that missile I think it's the best point you could spend by a long shot. No pun intended.
It's not about Dead Eye. It's about the requirements to fire a torp or a missile. You need a target lock. Now pilots with a high number skill have a great chance of doing this. However a Green squadron with a pilot skill of three might struggle with this because when he first moves there is the potential for him to move and have no one to target lock. Dead eye removes that by needing a focus not a target lock. So unless you believe that missiles are completely useless and you don't need them, the case for dead eye IS the green squad a-wing. Is it a must? NO. Does it help. YES. Would I rather have PTL and use the A-wings amazing maneuverability to line up the shot later? YES!
All I'm saying is the card is valid.
Without Signature
if you are playing the standard Imperials vs Rebels, because Rebels have a lower agility value in general, your 2 attack dice is still rather effective, than compared against the higher agility value that imperial ships have. Hence, the missiles tend to benefit the Awing more than the TIEadv.
anyway, if you are running Dutch Vander or Lando or SquadLeader in your team, all the more i feel you do not really need deadeye, since all the arguments for deadeye is already covered by these 3 stuff. And arguments about the targetlock vs focus tend to boil down to having a higher PS, and if that is the case, veteran instincts might be more applicable since it sticks with you the entire time, and not just for that disposable missile salvo
:>8o8<: Xwing
O=O=O Ywing
||-O-|| TIE
{=O=} TIE adv
Just thought I'd throw in my thoughts.
First, I think Deadeye has a place, though as Duraham just mentioned there are other ways around the "I can't get a lock on my target, yet" problem. I'd also agree that Green Squadron A-wings seem to be made for this card (imagine that; they come in the same expansion pack!).
One neat way to use Deadeye is with Garven Dreis. Your Green Squadron Pilot moves forward and takes evade, then Garven moves right up behind him and performs a Focus action. After Garven's shot he passes his Focus token to the Green Squadron Pilot who then unleashes with his missile. I know you've probably all thought of that, but I didn't see it written down yet.
Some people play to win. I play because it's one of the few ways to fly an X-wing here on Earth!
Duraham said:
if you are playing the standard Imperials vs Rebels, because Rebels have a lower agility value in general, your 2 attack dice is still rather effective, than compared against the higher agility value that imperial ships have. Hence, the missiles tend to benefit the Awing more than the TIEadv.[/quote]
Oh, I see. That's more a comment in regard to missles versus primary weapons though than Deadeye in particular though, isn't it?
[quote]anyway, if you are running Dutch Vander or Lando or SquadLeader in your team, all the more i feel you do not really need deadeye, since all the arguments for deadeye is already covered by these 3 stuff. And arguments about the targetlock vs focus tend to boil down to having a higher PS, and if that is the case, veteran instincts might be more applicable since it sticks with you the entire time, and not just for that disposable missile salvo
Wellll, kinda. I think Deadeye still does afford you some flexibility even in those situations. The Lando thing in my mind actually makes it even better as you could do a 2nd Focus for your Free Action.
Again, I'm not 100% in love with Deadeye as an auto-include, take-it-or-lose kind of upgrade, and I hope all this isn't coming off that way, I'm just saying that there are some situations where it'd be a nice option to have available, especially on a low PR pilot, and as it only costs a point and triggers from a Focus, you're not really giving up much to get it. Like Picasso said, it's more about overcoming the requirement of firing the missile and the incurred repurcussions from the moving and firing sequences than anything else.
If you think missiles are by and large, pointless in their application or not worth their points, then Deadeye isn't likely to convert you into a believer. However, if you do use them and find yourself limited at times by acquiring the TL and still having the target in your arc when it's time to fire the missiles/ torps, then Deadeye probably is worth your while as an upgrade.
Game strategies, tactical analysis, list critiques, painting & modification articles,much more for Star Wars X-Wing Miniatures by Fantasy Flight Games straight to you from the hippest pilot bar in the galaxy, TheMetalBikini.com.
I'm not trashing on VI but it only gets you to a five Skill on that Green squad A-wing. My current TIE build doesn't have a pilot under a six because of VI. I know in this game there is a situation for every list. Also this debate comes down to the kind of list you would like to play. I love missiles. I can do a ton of damage with two of them. I can for sure drop a ship. I am also going to look at and try out every card I can to make that missile as destructive as I can.
Is dead eye a great card? NO
is it a dead card? No
is it situational? YEs
have I had success with it? Ask the guy I smoked without loosing a ship Friday night. Better yet, ask the two squint pilots that each took a homing missile to the cockpit for vaporization!
Without Signature
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