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CaptainRook said:
The maneuvering dial is also very useful at avoiding that big giant Napoleonic Volley I see in the first three turns of so many games.
But I'm not an experienced wargamer, and it feels like the conceit of starting the two forces at opposite edges of the table constrains my early decisions. Most combinations of movements bring my force closer to my opponent's force, in such a way that I can either:
A) Face the Imperials, and take their opening fire as the cost of being able to shoot back, or
B) Turn my firing arcs away from my opponent's ships, allowing them to shoot at my exposed flanks without the chance to shoot back.
Again, I would love to know how you're managing this as the Rebels in the early game. Being told I'm doing it wrong isn't very helpful, since that's been my assumption throughout the thread. I need to know what I'm doing wrong--or, rather, what the Rebels should be doing. How are you using your maneuvering dial to avoid the Napoleonic volley without sacrificing your ability to fire at all?
Vorpal Sword said:
CaptainRook said:
The maneuvering dial is also very useful at avoiding that big giant Napoleonic Volley I see in the first three turns of so many games.
I would love to know how to consistently maneuver so that I can shoot at my enemy's flanks without taking return fire. I'm fairly good at doing that in the late game, particularly if I'm playing Imperials (barrel rolls and short turns make a huge difference).
But I'm not an experienced wargamer, and it feels like the conceit of starting the two forces at opposite edges of the table constrains my early decisions. Most combinations of movements bring my force closer to my opponent's force, in such a way that I can either:
A) Face the Imperials, and take their opening fire as the cost of being able to shoot back, or
B) Turn my firing arcs away from my opponent's ships, allowing them to shoot at my exposed flanks without the chance to shoot back.
Again, I would love to know how you're managing this as the Rebels in the early game. Being told I'm doing it wrong isn't very helpful, since that's been my assumption throughout the thread. I need to know what I'm doing wrong--or, rather, what the Rebels should be doing. How are you using your maneuvering dial to avoid the Napoleonic volley without sacrificing your ability to fire at all?
I think it was said best in an earlier post about being unpredictable as a Rebel and perhaps, sometimes, ridiculously cautious. Like I said here, I honestly don't know how to teach someone what to do with the dial. I actually spent some time on the table just scooting miniatures around and getting a good idea of the geometry you're dealing with. It really is just an experience thing, but if you actually were bored enough to do what I did, and sorta 'register' some plans to execute, it may help a lot. I like to move up the flanks a lot, which really causes an Imperial player to have to tighten everything up. They're also missing a critical maneuver which allows them to 'wheel' very well, and it can trip up a formation. Yes, TIE fighters can slightly outmaneuver an X-Wing, but they can't typically do it in a way that allows them to concentrate their firepower effectively. It's like a how a mongoose circles a cobra until it gets all knotted up and can't strike. They keep swinging wild to get little pot shots at you until they're bouncing off of eachother and then you turn in to shotgun them.
"I am Captain Soontir Fel. I will teach you how to fly & how to survive. If you think you know better than me, all I can teach you is how to die."
I did the samething. I put 12 asteroids down on a table and flew each ship through it. Then two ships at a time. I also played games with more than one set of asteroids.
Without Signature
Picasso said:
I did the samething. I put 12 asteroids down on a table and flew each ship through it. Then two ships at a time. I also played games with more than one set of asteroids.
This is one of those weird games where it really does benefit you to practice alone, at least as far as maneuvering goes. It also really benefits you to prioritize what is really the most important in the game. Pilot Skill and Maneuvering, in my opinion, are more important than any of the other stats. While those stats are important, if you don't know your dial, the only stat you need to know is the green colored one.
"I am Captain Soontir Fel. I will teach you how to fly & how to survive. If you think you know better than me, all I can teach you is how to die."
CaptainRook said:
ScottieATF said:
CaptainRook said:
I keep winning and winning as long as I have no less than two Y-Wings. In fact, the only games I've lost were as Imperial. I also thinks Biggs' ability is very counterintuitive, as I'd rather force my opponent to spread their shots across my ships rather than focusing on something. I will not include Biggs in my lists.
What you are saying would make sense if there was any way to force you oppoment to spread thier shots. Presently there is no reason to not fly tight, overlap fields of fire, and throw all of your shots into one target until its dead. Asteriods can in some ways help, but they don't do enough, as you can just collapse in once around them.
There is just no real, consistant way, to force your opponent into spreading thier shots out. Your statement just doesn't hold water.
You're absolutely correct, my maneuvering strategy that seems to consistently work is imaginary. Unlike you, who seems to follow me around on the forums and Troll my every statement. I know there's not a mechanic that forces you to shoot at a different target than the one that's damaged….it's called maneuvering.
CaptainRook said:
ScottieATF said:
CaptainRook said:
I keep winning and winning as long as I have no less than two Y-Wings. In fact, the only games I've lost were as Imperial. I also thinks Biggs' ability is very counterintuitive, as I'd rather force my opponent to spread their shots across my ships rather than focusing on something. I will not include Biggs in my lists.
What you are saying would make sense if there was any way to force you oppoment to spread thier shots. Presently there is no reason to not fly tight, overlap fields of fire, and throw all of your shots into one target until its dead. Asteriods can in some ways help, but they don't do enough, as you can just collapse in once around them.
There is just no real, consistant way, to force your opponent into spreading thier shots out. Your statement just doesn't hold water.
You're absolutely correct, my maneuvering strategy that seems to consistently work is imaginary. Unlike you, who seems to follow me around on the forums and Troll my every statement. I know there's not a mechanic that forces you to shoot at a different target than the one that's damaged….it's called maneuvering.
Alright, lets get things straight. I have no idea who you are. I do not follow you around looking for your post. You posted in a thread that I happened to read, I disagreed with your statement. I also disagreed with the OPs orginal premise. So get it out of your head that I'm trolling you.
If you take a look at my posting history you'll see me constantly deriding players for just setting up straight on with thier opponent and throwing attacks until one side happens to die. I've talked again and again at the importantance of just playing smarter with the manuvers, or just thinking at all.
But even doing so does not prevent certain head to head situations. The is no reason to deride Biggs ability, when you can use it in conjunction with that manuvering stuff. You use Biggs to force bad shots when you can't prevent a gang-up, then move him out of formation to get them firing elsewhere, then roll him back in to protect your more important pieces.
Just because you are running Biggs does not mean you just throw everything out the window and line up straight and start swininging. He's a back-up policy to the fact that you can't out manuver everyone all the time. He also opens up new manuvers to you. It's awesome to run Wedge into Range 1 for some near auto-kills, but it can expose him to his own death. It's an even better move if you can slide Biggs along behind him at an off angle so the good Range 1 shots that would vape Wedge have to go at Biggs at Range 2 (or even 3), while Biggs is still out of the view of others TiEs.
Your post gave the impression that it's one or the other. Either you out-manuver or out-slug. It's simply not. Biggs is a tool that allows you to manuver in was you couldn't before, and scrap effectively when not able to out manuver.
CaptainRook said:
The maneuvering dial is also very useful at avoiding that big giant Napoleonic Volley I see in the first three turns of so many games.
Vorpal Sword said:
I would love to know how to consistently maneuver so that I can shoot at my enemy's flanks without taking return fire. I'm fairly good at doing that in the late game, particularly if I'm playing Imperials (barrel rolls and short turns make a huge difference)….
…Again, I would love to know how you're managing this as the Rebels in the early game. Being told I'm doing it wrong isn't very helpful, since that's been my assumption throughout the thread. I need to know what I'm doing wrong--or, rather, what the Rebels should be doing. How are you using your maneuvering dial to avoid the Napoleonic volley without sacrificing your ability to fire at all?
I have managed it only a few times. Here’s one example. Opponent places 2 low-skilled TIE fighters at center. I place Rookie + R2-D2 opposite them. He places Maarek Stele in corner with Howlrunner (or some other high-skilled TIE). I place Horton and Wedge in my left corner opposite them. Then he placed Vader in center behind the two TIEs.
Opening move: my ships move forward 2, his ships move forward 4. I could tell that he wanted Range 1 badly, but since TIEs can’t move straight 1, he wanted to be sure he wouldn’t blast past me.
Second turn, I moved Wedge and Horton straight 1 to keep his TIEs in Torpedo range. Instead of sending my Rookie to his death, I had him Bank 3 to his left towards Maarek and his wingman. Sure enough, he sent his TIEs to far and Rookie was out of their arcs, but Vader had a decent shot. So Rookie, Wedge and Horton put the hammer down on Maarek Stele, while we only took fire from Vader, Maarek and Howlrunner.
It’s kind of a toss-yeah. You can’t do it consistently. But you’ve got to read your opponent and do what you think they don’t expect. It’s easier to be unpredictable later in the game, like you’ve said, Vorpal Sword.
ScottieATF said:
Just because you are running Biggs does not mean you just throw everything out the window and line up straight and start swininging. He's a back-up policy to the fact that you can't out manuver everyone all the time. He also opens up new manuvers to you. It's awesome to run Wedge into Range 1 for some near auto-kills, but it can expose him to his own death. It's an even better move if you can slide Biggs along behind him at an off angle so the good Range 1 shots that would vape Wedge have to go at Biggs at Range 2 (or even 3), while Biggs is still out of the view of others TiEs.
Your post gave the impression that it's one or the other. Either you out-manuver or out-slug. It's simply not. Biggs is a tool that allows you to manuver in was you couldn't before, and scrap effectively when not able to out manuver.
Wow. I would love to see you pilot Biggs because that sounds impressive. It had never occured to me to be risky wih Biggs like that. Brilliant! I don't know why I didn't think of it, because it's not like I run "Howlrunner" straight up with her wingmen.
(Sorry the quotes are all messed up. Still working out how to double quote)
Some people play to win. I play because it's one of the few ways to fly an X-wing here on Earth!
…..and I don't like his ability. Therefore, taking it personally that I don't like his ability, is a bit foolish. You haven't changed my mind about his ability, or convinced me otherwise. I disagree. All you've done is turn my criticism of an inanimate object into criticism of me, personally. It doesn't hurt my feelings in the least, but just because you disagree that I feel Biggs' ability is particularly useless or detrimental, you've decided my reasoning for that is also invalid. Which it isn't. My experience has taught me otherwise. In fact, in the multiple games I've played against Biggs, it's been a major laughing point that the only times Biggs ever got targetted was exactly when he was the only thing that could be targetted(not because of his ability), because of how I maneuvered. I maneuvered, specifically, to not be forced to fire on Biggs so I could take out something worthwhile. Sure, it had a slight effect on how I played, but I still managed to win without a single lost ship. So, don't tell me my argument doesn't hold water, when it does….next time, if I fail to offer an explanation, just ask for it. I know I can be abrupt at times, but even I give someone the benefit of the doubt and ask them to explain their reasoning before knocking the possibility they may have any reasoning out of the park. it is very simply to maneuver in such a way that your opponent can't focus on a single ship, or when focusing on a single ship may not be as convincingly powerful or obvious(ships in various ranges). It is my opinion that Biggs' needs to be doing everything he can to stay in Range 3 to not be swiftly removed from the game, but then, typically, you've reduced your own firepower and synergy.
"I am Captain Soontir Fel. I will teach you how to fly & how to survive. If you think you know better than me, all I can teach you is how to die."
Alamoth said:
CaptainRook said:
I agree completely. When my friend and I first sat down to play, he picked up the Imperials and I took the Rebels. The first thing we sorted out was the maneuvering. We've both played tabletop games for years and know all to well that the correct movement on an early turn can pay huge dividends later on. Learning how to best maneuver your ships to gain tactical advantage is paramount to winning.
Did you know that the TIE Fighter can only make 90 Degree Maneuver at 1 Speed? This is hugely important. Or that TIE Fighters can move forwards at up to a speed of 5, and can execute Koiogran Turns at speed 3 or 4? Critical information. Those eight TIE Fighters can't shoot what they can't see. X-Wings can't make a 90 Degree Maneuver at Speed 1 and can only go forwards up to Speed 4. They also can only execute a Koiogran Turn at Speed 4.
I'd learn the maneuvring dials long before I cared about the attack power or defensive capabilities of any ship.
….the key thing I learned from practicing TIE Fighter formations, is that they will often trip up over each other when they turn. You have to make your opponent get greedy with them.
"I am Captain Soontir Fel. I will teach you how to fly & how to survive. If you think you know better than me, all I can teach you is how to die."
CaptainRook said:
Picasso said:
I did the samething. I put 12 asteroids down on a table and flew each ship through it. Then two ships at a time. I also played games with more than one set of asteroids.
This is one of those weird games where it really does benefit you to practice alone, at least as far as maneuvering goes. It also really benefits you to prioritize what is really the most important in the game. Pilot Skill and Maneuvering, in my opinion, are more important than any of the other stats. While those stats are important, if you don't know your dial, the only stat you need to know is the green colored one.
I've also come to the conclusion that pilot skill is weird. It's a subtle way of bidding for movement and firing order, and one of the Rebels' problems is that they habitually bid way more than they need to "win".
For example, My go-to Imp squad is Vader/Howlrunner/4x Academy Ties. If the Imperials field the 6-ship Worlds squad, and the Rebels play Luke/Biggs/Wedge, then the Rebels are bidding ineffectively: Vader, Howlrunner, and an Academy pilot shoot, then all the Rebels shoot, then the other three Academy Pilots shoot. That's precisely the same order they would go in if the Rebels all had skill 2, meaning the Rebels are (in a sense) playing with a 16-point handicap.
Interestingly, if the Imperials do try to compete with the Rebels on pilot skill, it typically costs them an entire TIE fighter to do so--and the Rebels do much better. If the Rebels give up on pilot skill and just go with 3-4 generic pilots, they do better still, unless the Empire changes their list to either take initiative back or undercut the Rebels even further.
It would be interesting if the tournament rules reflected that subtlety, and allowed you to submit a main list and an alternate (or a Magic-style sidebar where I can swap Wedge and a couple of upgrades for a pair of Rookie Pilots). Even more interesting would be a drafting phase, where you and your opponents build your lists at the same time.
CaptainRook said:
….the key thing I learned from practicing TIE Fighter formations, is that they will often trip up over each other when they turn. You have to make your opponent get greedy with them.
It gets a bit more complicated if there are other ships following behind, but it's still not terrible. Problems are kept to a minimum if you make sure pilots with higher skill are generally placed at the back of the formation, so that you can move fighters in order from front to back. It also helps to remember not to get greedy, if you're the Imp pilot: staying in formation is probably better than going for that perfect killshot, because the shot isn't worth it if it causes a 5-TIE pileup in an asteroid field.
(One good reason to field Biggs is the look on the Imperial player's face when he realizes he destroyed his formation in order to get that perfect Rng 1 killshot on Wedge… and then is forced to take a Rng 2 obstructed shot against R2-F2'd Biggs anyway.)
Man, forget maneuvers even. Let's take a look at what happens before you even start moving.
- Setup obstacles
- Select table edge
- Deploy squads
Setting up the asteroids will greatly change the dynamic of the game. I would recommend that if you have a more maneuverable squad (3x X-Wing for example) then you want a field of battle with more asteroids. If you have a less maneuverable squad (8x TIE Fighter for example) then you will want more open spaces. Then you need to consider if you want to create a make-shift asteroid field, or an asteroid belt. A field of asteriods will create havoc in a central location. A belt of asteroids will allow for some maneuvering space, but create some really interesting options for maneuvers.
Selecting your table edge may seem trivial but remember that TIE Fighters can move at a top speed 5 and X-Wings/Y-Wings can only move at a top speed of 4. If that asteroid field you planned to use to your advantage is on your opponent's side of the table, the odds are they can clear it before you engage them. Did you ever wonder why the designers decided to always let the Rebels pick which side of the table they deploy on? This certainly wasn't an arbitrary decision as the Rebels seem to have more potential to benefit from terrain than the Empire does.
Deployment is done in order of Pilot Skill. In general this means that many of the TIE Fighters will be on the board before you place your final ships. This means that the Rebel player will often have a good idea of the Imperial opening before having to choose their opening. This is definitely one of the benefits of going with a Luke/Wedge/Biggs list. You deploy at pilot skill 5, 8 and 9 meaning that there are only six Imperial ships that would deploy after Biggs and they're all named. An army of eight TIE Fighters would have to be completely deployed before you selected your starting positions.
All three of these can be used to give you an advantage and you haven't made a single maneuver or rolled a single die. This is where wargaming awards skill over army composition and the same can be true of X-Wing battles.
Without Signature
Alamoth said:
Selecting your table edge may seem trivial but remember that TIE Fighters can move at a top speed 5 and X-Wings/Y-Wings can only move at a top speed of 4. If that asteroid field you planned to use to your advantage is on your opponent's side of the table, the odds are they can clear it before you engage them. Did you ever wonder why the designers decided to always let the Rebels pick which side of the table they deploy on? This certainly wasn't an arbitrary decision as the Rebels seem to have more potential to benefit from terrain than the Empire does.
Deployment is done in order of Pilot Skill. In general this means that many of the TIE Fighters will be on the board before you place your final ships. This means that the Rebel player will often have a good idea of the Imperial opening before having to choose their opening. This is definitely one of the benefits of going with a Luke/Wedge/Biggs list. You deploy at pilot skill 5, 8 and 9 meaning that there are only six Imperial ships that would deploy after Biggs and they're all named. An army of eight TIE Fighters would have to be completely deployed before you selected your starting positions.
All three of these can be used to give you an advantage and you haven't made a single maneuver or rolled a single die. This is where wargaming awards skill over army composition and the same can be true of X-Wing battles.
ScottieATF said:
CaptainRook said:
I keep winning and winning as long as I have no less than two Y-Wings. In fact, the only games I've lost were as Imperial. I also thinks Biggs' ability is very counterintuitive, as I'd rather force my opponent to spread their shots across my ships rather than focusing on something. I will not include Biggs in my lists.
What you are saying would make sense if there was any way to force you oppoment to spread thier shots. Presently there is no reason to not fly tight, overlap fields of fire, and throw all of your shots into one target until its dead. Asteriods can in some ways help, but they don't do enough, as you can just collapse in once around them.
There is just no real, consistant way, to force your opponent into spreading thier shots out. Your statement just doesn't hold water.
You can't force your opponents to spred out there shots, but you all Bigg's does is force them not to. I think his point is that Bigg's ability to force your opponent to focus all their attacks on each ship one at a time is not very useful.
I have killed so many Wedge, Biggs, Luke squadrons, by simply killing Biggs, then Wedge, then Luke.
Without Signature
I've had more failure than success with my Rebel lists so far and it got me considering…
What about a ship roster with ships all the same pilot rank?
Sure, I'm foregoing taking Wedge, Biggs, et. al., but seems like the trade off would be getting to move and fire in whatever order I choose. In my head that's worth something. Maybe it's more a reflection of me not having played enough to manuever effectively or plan out my turns in advance based on the pilot skills, but the notion of 3 Red Squadron X-Wings and a Gray Y just won't leave my head.
Anyone experimented with this kind of setup yet? Or 3 Rooks and a Gold Y?
Game strategies, tactical analysis, list critiques, painting & modification articles,much more for Star Wars X-Wing Miniatures by Fantasy Flight Games straight to you from the hippest pilot bar in the galaxy, TheMetalBikini.com.
Picasso said:
If you are playing rebels the advantage is at a distance. You would think that would go to the imps having four evade dice but it doesn't. Imps have a hard enough time scoring a hit on two attack dice. Let us be honest about this. All these discussions are void after the Kessel Run. But I digress, I think the strength of the rebels is when you play the missions. The missions are balanced, challenging, and fun. I find it disappointing that there have been no mission events yet for the game. The new ship event isn't any different from a regular 100 pointtourneythat favors the Empire.
In the mean time I suggest rebel players try the following;
biggs at range three of ties with rest of your fighters at range two but range one of Biggs.
horton with torps.
Don't take just Y-wings or X-wings. Mix it up.
Balance out named pilots and generics.
after I got passed the learning curve with the Imps I only lost to Doug at worlds and that was some imp on imp crime. I finally lost with the same list I took to worlds this past weekend. I think my cousin is close to cracking the rebel list but it will take some time. Successfully using torps is a huge part of rebel domanince.
Picasso said:
If you are playing rebels the advantage is at a distance. You would think that would go to the imps having four evade dice but it doesn't. Imps have a hard enough time scoring a hit on two attack dice. Let us be honest about this. All these discussions are void after the Kessel Run. But I digress, I think the strength of the rebels is when you play the missions. The missions are balanced, challenging, and fun. I find it disappointing that there have been no mission events yet for the game. The new ship event isn't any different from a regular 100 pointtourneythat favors the Empire.
In the mean time I suggest rebel players try the following;
biggs at range three of ties with rest of your fighters at range two but range one of Biggs.
horton with torps.
Don't take just Y-wings or X-wings. Mix it up.
Balance out named pilots and generics.
after I got passed the learning curve with the Imps I only lost to Doug at worlds and that was some imp on imp crime. I finally lost with the same list I took to worlds this past weekend. I think my cousin is close to cracking the rebel list but it will take some time. Successfully using torps is a huge part of rebel domanince.
I agree with most of what you are saying. Building a good list is any game is about taking good advantage of your options, not about always taking x or y.
I don't love Biggs.
I also agree that the rebels want to stay away from the Imprials, but that can be difficult when TIE's can move 5 and at least your x-wings can only shoot forward.
Without Signature
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