Elgrun said:

I don't mean any offense either, I just like freindly arguments about this subject :)

Elgrun said:

And The emperor, who started a crusade to eradicate such unfounded religions amongst other reasons, who is one of the most powerful psykers ever, did not forsee this betrayal? Lorgar started as a "Heretic" from the religion of Reason, and defied the emperor with his every breath. He was not capable of bending his thoughts around a concept to make it into what he needed. Had he pursued reason with religious zeal, he probably would have been fine.

Elgrun said:

I will admit, I have not read that book. My premise about no primarch being the warmaster was not intended to make the assumption that the emperor stay and lead. More along the lines of someone like Malcador, who was in his own right immensly powerful be put in charge.

Elgrun said:

Yes those were crusibles… on our scale. However each of the primachs was capable of tearing a human warrior apart with his own hands without any difficulty AS A CHILD. By the time these genetically-engineered-warriors-designed-to-conquor-the-universe primarchs were full grown adults, I don't think there was anything left but another primarch to provide a suitable crusible with which to challenge them. Thier behavior and attitudes in the books I have read (my opinion) supports this by making them seem like spoiled children rather often, whenever they are faced with a TRUE crucible. My opinion was that the first TRUE crucible any primarch faced was by Lorgar, losing his religion to the emporer's command, and he failed it. The second was horus when he was struck down… and he failed it. One of the things that I noted to myself when I read several of the books was that all the primarchs had certain individual traits, but they were magnified to huge proportions and where those traits were concerned they had little control over themselves, something they share with children everywhere.

Elgrun said:

Never read that book so my perspective does not include that. My assertion is from the idea that psykers and sorcery are seperate things (ala dark heresy) The emperor did not forbid psykers, infact his other legions even had librarians at that time (if I remember correctly). Magnus was forbidden from sorcery, and had he followed this edict the psykic might of his legion would have remained immensely impressive. His defiance of that is what cost him. If your take on the universe does not differentiate psyker from sorcery then I agree my assertion would be wrong. He also failed his TRUE crucible. That being said, my first model was a thousand sons sorceror, they have always been my favorite, although I like Ahriman more than Magnus.

Elgrun said:

I will admit this is purely based on what I feel like believing the emporer was like and is not based on anything in the lore at all . I think NONE of the major powers are anything but evil in 40k and you will only find good people and heros at the individual levels. So Following that I think the emperor was pretty freaking evil, that he did nothing out of benevolence, and that mankind is still following his plan for human ascension… and that in the end he will win. I also believe that the emperor is a pantheon on his own and is equal to the pantheon of the four chaos gods, but individually each chaos god is not a match for him. But again, nothing in the lore proves either way on this (as his true motivations could never be known today) and this is based on my own fancy. :D

As for the primarchs turning theory of mine, the idea was that it was intended far down the road… after the galaxy had been clensed of all that xenos filth and other threats. Not every plan works exactly as intended though, and the emperor fell prey to this. The Chaos Gods, knowing that this was set up to happen took advantage of the opening lorgar gave them and engineered this to happen before time. Again, just my own fanciful musings though, not based on anything in the lore.

Minor nitpick Lorgar was not the first to fall, that "honor" fell to Erebus who poisoned the mind of his Primarch. It was Erebus who planned for Horus to be wounded so that he too would be open to the lure of Chaos.

The warrior lodges of the Emperor's Children really started their fall to Chaos. Angron was the easiest to manipulate, the easiest to get to fall. Though I feel bad for Fulgrim, it was hinted at a while ago that should Fulgrim ever break free of control he would all but destroy his legion and then would return to Terra to seek the Emperor's judgement.

The Emperor wanted Magnus' help to power the Golden Throne, that was to be his destiny that would have elevated mankind to what Magnus thought they could be. So very ironic that his own actions would later stop that from happening.

Mortarion and his legion were caught in the Warp and dying of a plague even their physiologies could not overcome. Seeing no other choice he pledges himself and his legion to the service of Nurgle.

It is hinted at that the Alpha Legion "Fell" to gather intell on the others that would one day fall to Chaos and at a later point in time reveal their true loyalty to the Emperor and help bring about justice to those who fell.

The Night Haunter was the monster the Emperor needed him to be, wanted him to be. Of all the Primarchs he perhaps staid the truest to the Emperor's goal and intent for his legion. His downfall came from the visions he received and no matter what he did his fate was sealed from the moment the Emperor first touched him on the shoulder. Of all the Primarchs that fell the Night Haunter is one of my favorites.

And at last Purterabo and the Iron Warriors. He was a genius when it came to a long war and siege mentality. But GW needed a counter-part for a loyalist legion. I see no good reason why he feel.

World Eaters - Blood Angels

Iron Warriors - Imperial Fists

Black Legion - Ultramarines

Alpha Legion - Dark Angels

Thousand Sons - ???

Emperor's Children - ???

Death Guard - Iron Hands

Night Lords - Raven Guard

Word Bearers - ???

TheHeavenlyLily said:

I would have said the World Eaters' counterpart would be the Space Wolves, not the Blood Angels. Space Wolves are based on Vikings, the people who invented the word "berserker", and they seem to love smashing heads almost as much as any Khornate. Or Ork.

Blood Angels are more a counterpart for the Emperor's Children; both Fulgrim and Sanguinius were very pretty (and both modern Blood Angels and Emperor's Children place great value on beauty as a result) and both legions/chapters are artistically minded when outside of combat. Blood Angels only really get Khorne-y when in the throes of the Black Rage, whereas Space Wolves are fight-happy all the time.

I don't really think the Thousand Sons or Word Bearers have a loyalist counterpart, nor do the White Scars and Salamanders have a traitor counterpart either. The Iron Warriors seem to have the "Blacksmith" role taken by Chaos, whereas the "Speed freak" role is either the Emperor's Children (again) or the Night Lords. Meanwhile, the real religious zealots on the Imperial side seem to be the Black Templars, but they're not a founding chapter so they don't count.