Crate said:

These two sentences together almost make a joke.

HappyDaze said:

Ah, good to know. I did want to incorporate the Storm Wardens into it one way or another for the sake of the Night Lords player. Seems I'll have to put some more thought into it rather than just throwing it out there like that. Forgot about their whole deal with the forced seclusion and all.

Hiding CSM in boxes? You gotta be kidding me :)

When I first started reading about the Warhammer 40,000 universe and the legions of Chaos I never considered these CSM hding themselves in boxes :) Let's face it, this is a typical RPG solution which fluff-wise just doesn't work.

@reverent Mort: so if high level human heretics have obvious mutations -> this does not solve the problem but just makes it worse. So now you don't just need to hide CSM but also the tentacled cultists :)

In Dark Heresy the cultists are often underground, sneaky cells hiding where they can ... I've always assumed BC allows you to play such cultists but this whole Screaming Vortex thing moves the backdrop premise of the game and the setting from hidden cults to Chaos excursions. This is fine ofcourse, but then the setting makes me think more of Deathwatch (open war) than Dark Heresy (investigation).

 @Crate

Would it be possible to hide the CSM's in some big boxes or something ?

That would depend entirely on whether one of your CSMs happens to be Lord Firraveus Carron.

@Skurvy

I mean, if they are disguised as prisoners i could just as easily explain that "Yes, a chaos space marine was sent to a prison colony to do heavy labor, what better task".

Um... no. Chaos Space Marines are the arch-enemy of mankind. Any that are caught will be (if possible) interrogated and then disposed of, preferably in a very painful way. There is no way anyone halfway sane would delay the execution any longer than absolutely necessary.

@The Laughing God

There are two kinds of RPG. One where the characters are relatively close together in abilities and drawbacks and one where it's possible to specialize in extremely different directions. The latter kind generally requires that you work together closely with your GM in establishing what campaign you'll play with what characters. Dark Heresy and its derivatives have always tended in that direction - going for radical missions with a Redemptionist or a sister in your group certainly won't work. Sending a power-armoured Unnatural Toughness Machine X Magos into the same combat as a robe-clad Sage will likely kill the Sage if the Magos is at all threatened.

CSMs work in campaigns that:

-are not located in Imperial space
-do not require social stealth
or
-are not so focused on social stealth that it's a spotlight-time problem if the CSMs sit those parts out.

As for "CSMs would never do that!"... that would likely depend on the kind of CSM. Since there are those that would not object to hiding themselves by whatever means necessary, playing the other kind when the GM has made clear that stealth will be required sounds suspiciously like shooting yourself in the foot.

Cifer said:

True, I get it. But the Redemptionist could be led astray during roleplay and or 'suggested to retire' for ingame roleplaying fluff reasons. Infiltrating the Imperium's cities with Chaos Space Marines would be possible, but it would all the time require a very good entry vector for these monsters .. a large and important act in the scenario would be how to get the CSM make footfall on the planet.

I am wondering ...  I don't GM Black Crusade atm .. for those who do: do your adventures take place in the Imperium or predominantly in the hellish region of the Screaming Vortex?

I'm a fan of the less hellish outer regions of the Screaming Vortex.

The Laughing God said:

To be honest I'm not GM:ing either, yet, but I'm planning my game to take place mostly in the Screaming Vortex with incursions into the Imperium.

We're playing in the Korronus expanse because we thought it would give us a good mix of Imperium controlled territory to infiltrate/take over/mess with as well as a good portion alien and  "yet-to-be discovered" unaffiliated space to set up a home-base.

The Laughing God said:

And the obvious BC would NOT incorporate a group made up of characters worshipping Khorne and Slaanesh together. However thats what the BC creators envisioned and that means you dont have to go 100% canon on everything else. My CSM would have no problem with hiding in the cargo hold if thats what it took to get off world, he knows he can not fight his way into space. His destiny isnt to die in a futile firefight against 100 Imperial Guards when he could get offworld and gather a warband to punish this world.

I do agree that a mixed group leads to problems but its up to the players and GM together to try to overcome the problems (or avoid them altogether) the best way possible and not make it impossible for each other.

Crate said:

I do agree that Black Crusade supports a more muted interpretation of the followers of Chaos. It's expected that they are more tolerant of one another despite differences in allegiances and what not, and it's likewise assumed that the human/space marine interactions are of equals. This doesn't fit with a great deal of the novels and such, but sometimes good gaming and the fiction are not going to meet perfectly.

HappyDaze said:

It's all a matter of degrees in any case - sure, the individual Chaos Gods loathe and despise each-other with a passion possible only for entities coalesced from the raw, unfettered emotions of all mortal existence, but individual daemons, champions and petty worshippers are capable of independent thought, reason and machination, and while their inclinations will be coloured by their patron's nature to some variable extent (a daemon more than the greatest mortal champion, champions more than lesser worshippers), they have the capacity to forge their own alliances as they deem fit.

My main beef is that one of the most basic interpretations of a Chaos Space Marine worshiping Khorne is nigh impossible.

The main ways of getting to Saint Annard's Penance involve going on Imperial ship that has Arbiters, Ecclesiarchy, Imperial Guard and a contingent of Space Wolf Space Marines.Okay, so that way is pretty much out for the CSM,

The other way is dealing with a Slaanesh cult. Good luck, Khornite CSM guys.

Once you get to Saint Annard's Penance you are told that it is a Penal Colony. This means that is is crawling with Arbiters and Imperial Guardsmen by the tens or hundreds of thousands. The CSM who worships Khorne then has to have difficult, crucial roleplay interactions with Imperial Guards and another cult of Slaanesh.

The cult interactions are already challenging to -20 and have all these circumstances where one social faux pas means that the entire mission takes a -10 on Fellowship interactions. Anybody who worships Khorne will be found out and kicked out. Not listening to the ban on cult premises puts a whopping -30 on all Fellowship interactions.

To rub salt into the wound, it is stated that the group could just kill the cult leader, and then it gives the cult leader Unnatural Agility, Dodge and Parry in the 50s to the 70s, a Displacement Field with a 55 rating and a Slaanesh blessing that gives a power field and a force field with a 65 rating. Spectacular. His second-in-command torture mistress is every bit the bad ass in combat, if not more so.

HappyDaze said:

Wait, what? Are these buy-off-corruption rules found anywhere else?

Disrupt said:

Nothing a well prepared group can;t take out in a few rounds okay there may be a death on the pc side but then they have a new refractor field of a wooping 55%

 @Disrupt

Firstly, yes, stereotypical Khornite "Kill, Krush & Destroy!" characters are going to have problems. They're going to have them in almost every game that is not entirely focused on combat. That being said, it's quite possible to fix even that - remove the horns and spikes from his armour, paint him up as some obscure chapter and let him act as a retainer to one of the other characters who poses as a Rogue Trader or similar. "You'll have to excuse Brother Totallius-Notus-Khornus - he does not usually care to speak to us lowly mortals..."

As for Lord Oglanov... I really fail to see the problem. Per round, he gets two Dodges at 50 and a Field save at 65 (to my knowledge, you can't be protected by two fields at once) towards everything that bypasses that. A Khornate can generally get one or two attack rolls at least that high. His 30 wounds certainly sound many, but then again, his Armour 5/TB 3 adequately balance that. He goes down against three average chain axe hits. So... let's see:

-Enter Frenzy+Battle Rage

-Berserk Charge Oglanov with a Take Down; assuming you hit, Oglanov gets a 50% chance to evade, his field likely doesn't protect him from the non-damaging impact

-laugh at Oglanov when he does not make his Toughness check with a 35% chance

-Aim Dual Lightning Attack Oglanov while he's prone and stunned (no Dodges for you!) with a +30 bonus

-Aim Dual Lightning Attack Oglanov while he's prone (-20 Dodge) with a +10 bonus

-If Oglanov still lives, use a Feint, then Knock Down (can't be evaded if the Feint succeeds) to put him back on his pink posterior and give him a level of fatigue, putting a -10 on all his rolls

-Duke it out like men.

Alternatively:

-Grapple Lord Oglanov

-laugh as he has no Contortionist skill, there are no reactions in a grapple and every other possible action requires an Opposed Strength test to succeed. He might shrug off two thirds of your attacks, but since he almost can't deal damage at all, who cares if ibringing him down takes some time? Should he use his displacer field to escape, just grab it off him.

The rest of your group should keep El'Leth and any other troops busy. Thereafter: Hand the cult off to an Undivided or Slaaneshi heretic while you bask in your 1d5 Corruption and 2 Infamy.