Decessor said:

Oh yes, you're absolutely right, I know I'm reading too much into things! I'm deliberately looking for canon chapters that fit my nebulous theoretical concept. And yes, you're absolutely right, chapters get wiped out all the time, it doesn't mean they're Berserker chapters. I'm really just looking for examples to inform my concept, to be honest. 

As for the Minotaurs, yes, you could be right. We may know soon: rumour has it that their background will be explored in more detail in a forthcoming Forge World book.

Lightbringer:  whew!  for a concept yer not really a fan of, you sure did write one heckuva post!

(now, let's see you expound upon something you're passionate about! )

Not a big fan of the 'berzerker chapter' idear, but it's an interesting one…you've given folks a lot to chew on.

(yeah, for me, i'll put this one in the 'dornian heresy' group - interesting, intriguing even, but not strictly canon so nay for me)

Berserk chapter are not from trzitor legion genseed… Look at the flesh tearers…

Lots of chapters may have a beserk attitude even from loyalist chapter.

White scars, blood angels could be used to create that kind of chapter.

But even a chapter build with ultra helix could be a berserk chapter, the question is who order the chapter creation, how much of their inheritance they knew about?

Geneseed is a base but if the chapter is educated far from their brothers and without any knowledge of their past they could be train to became a berserk chapter.

The home world will be usefull too. Look at the Mortificators… not really Ultra marines.

 You're misunderstanding my post…  I'm positing a TYPE of chapter, a pattern of chapter, like Nomad-Predation, or Codex. I know a lot of chapters that are clearly based on loyalist legion geneseed are pretty crazy and berserk. What I'm suggesting is a specific type of chapter that uses traitor geneseed that I'm CALLING a berserk chapter. You might equally call it a kamikaze chapter, but the berserk name fits with 40k better.

Well It could also be a Fabious Bile infiltration again like he did on the Blood angels.

He switched around some geneseed to traitors one and gathers the loyalist ones.. Then the players ahevt o try and claim the good ones and decide what happens with this new infant chapter.

Or an desperate Apothicarie starts salvaging traitor geneseed because is own dying chapter is running very very low. He notes which one are normal and which ones are just canon fodder… insuring they never gain a place of power and insuring that no bad geneseed is sent as stock.

That secret is kept firmly inside the apothicaries of that chapter but at some point a fellow Apothicaries "saves" one of the bad geneseed and by automation does a corruption check on it, to discover…

 The problem with that concept is that traitor geneseed is stored on Terra, and as such is not available to mere chapter apothecaries. Any new chapters using traitor geneseed are therefore going to have to have the backing of the High Lords of Terra.

It is possible that a loyalist chapter might overwhelm a renegade one who still have stocks of viable geneseed. This is far more likely for chapters that have turned renegade as opposed to outright traitor legions but even that is possible. Night Lords keep stocks of geneseed if not massive ones.

Lightbringer said:

In a combat zone, there maybe plenty of available traitor geneseeds… no one said that apothicarie was not going completely crazy from the lost inflicted on is chapter… that creates a nice black and white story… then they have to hunt down the apothicarie himself but as they corner him chaos try to recruit him with false promises, etc.

An Inquisitor having asses to something different also as an idea of creating some sort of hybrid (Thunder Warriors) and also tries to recruit the apothicarie… then a kill team is chapter comes by to finish him but not before he dies to save the kill team, only to inform them he failed, the leader of the 1st company, the aspiring chapters master as a traitor geneseed, he is a descendent of (choose yours favored).

Now what do you do? Kill the chapter? Let them live but monitor them? Help the inquisitor creating Thunder Warriors or destroy the recipe?

Fgdsfg said:

Whatever dude! :-P

crisaron said:

…but there will be some interesting tales…what would the Ultramarines do after Behemoth if they suddenly found a heap of 'questionable' geneseed?  If the only thing between the Hivefleet and the Imperium were the Ultramarines and the 'questionable' geneseed?  would they burn it all and risk the Imperium's destruction over an issue of pride and purity?  or would they 'bite the bullet', 'take one for the team' and use the geneseed to stop the tyranids?  i dunno, but it makes for good conflict….

I like the potential for conflict but chapters take a long time to raise. Unless you're talking about the Ultramarines using questionable geneseed for their own chapter. I don't see that as very likely, considering their pride in their lineage. Another chapter perhaps.

My first concern in this kind of chapter is the cost of a SM chapter, fleet, genetech lab and work, ad Mech furniture, support, …

A SM chapter is in fact a marvel of technology and a long time to pass before you could get a fighting force.

Who in an Imperium who desesperaly fight for survival can permit the loss of such asset, who can ( not can order) mobilise so much workforce, materials and knowledge in the actual aim to let it self destruct…

I can't imagine the Imperium let something like it happened, it is as a big machinery too much in need of everything to invest so much for a lost cause.

It is true that chapters disapear from Imprerial history destroy by their enn emy or their hubris but each time it is a tragedy.

Yes, the concept is good but not really in the mood of the universe as I see it. But it is only I and you are free to do as you want to.

Thebigjul said:

If you're referring to my "Berserker Chapter" concept, then yes, these are all completely valid points. To a degree I've attempted to address the "cost" issue (the vast expenses incurred in setting up a chapter) by suggesting that the Imperium creates Berserker Chapters "on the cheap" by using secondhand armour, old, disposable ships etc. I've also partially addressed your points by suggesting that this could be an ancient type of chapter no longer used by the Imperium, a relic of a more peaceful time, when the Imperium had disposable assets.

But in essence, I actually agree with you. I think the Imperium is very unlikely to ever knowingly use traitor geneseed. All I'm suggesting that if this is a route you as a player or GM want to go down, here's a non-canon (but vaguely plausible) option for doing so! :-)