The possibility of target misidentification is a lot stronger in a Dark Heresy game, IMO.  My plan was to give the group I was running, an Ordo Hereticus cell of Acolytes, threat briefings on Daemons and Aliens as well as Heretics, because they might just run into all three in the course of their investigations.  After all, Genestealer infiltrations tend to have similar enough modus operandi to Chaos Cults to get a group of Hereticus operatives investigating them.

Death Watch tend to be brought in after target identification is made, but the potential to come into conflict with the forces of Chaos is still there.  Maybe the Ork Warboss they've been tasked with assassinating has inadvertantly weakened the veil between the Warp and realspace with his WAAAGH, and Khornate daemons are coming out to play.  Maybe the Eldar who suddenly showed up and staked claim to part of an Imperial world and are stomping the frak out of anyone who tries to remove them are there to stop a Daemon incursion before it happens (which would make an interesting scenario...  nothing causes quite the same intra-party interactions as the players having to deal with a far worse problem than what they were sent in to stop, BECAUSE they stopped the original threat).

Fighting human enemies is pretty easy to work into a Death Watch game, actually...  There are any number of humans who would traffic with Xenos artifacts, bow down before their new alien overlords, etc.

Routa-maa said:

Sure but deathwatch aren't exactly dropped into situations where the above is happening all the time. The threat has been determined ahead of time. If that threat was uncovered it would be silly to assume that the other diversionary threat hadn't also been uncovered (which COULD provide some interesting RP, deathwatch marines on a misson run into some grey knights on a different one).

But, even if a greater deamon was being summoned, if their original objective was deemed more important and they didn't have time to do both they'd have have to do it. Basically it's unlikley they could foil two plots at the same time which leaves them calling for backup to contain the other threat while they finish the other one.

In the scheme of things I'm not sure that one greater daemon in the bowels of the underhive would cause that much damage. It probably wouldn't be manifested for long either.

But given the resources behind them I doubt that on every mission they'd simply run into dozens of other non mission problems.

Hellebore

I'm trying to remember the reason behind the Brother-Sergeant being sent along with the Acolytes in Shades on Twilight. The mission would mostly fall under the jurisdiction of the Ordo Malleus, as the Sword they were after used to belong to one of their Inquisitors. I can assume he was sent along not because the mission was an Ordo Xeno's mission, but because boarding a Space Hulk is almost a guaranteed way of encountering all sorts of wierd Xenos. So you also have scope for them taking part in missions that are the focus of another Ordo, but where their specialist knowledge is very useful.

Kanluwen said:

Well, what's stopping you from doing that right now in your DH and soon to be DW game? Nothing :D!

Routa-maa said:

Not really how it works.  Space Marines aren't going to knowingly follow a Radical's orders.  They don't see an Inquisitor in the same way as ordinary citizens.  They don't fear such individuals.  When they are seconded to the Inquisition they don't just blindly sign on to follow whatever orders they are given.  They're loyalty ultimately belongs first and foremost with their Chapter and the Emperor, and they aren't going to betray that for some puny Inquisitor who thinks it's a good idea to indulge in the taint of the alien.  The Ordo Xenos never got an army book like Maleus, but Deathwatch operates much like the Grey Knights: they don't work with Radicals.  In fact, if the situation was severe enough, they might very well put an end to such an individual.

Atheosis said:

However they got their own INI article that states that the C'tan phase swords the Callidus assassin temple uses were found by a Deathwatch team. So I guess they are to a certain extent willing to work with Xenos technology or at least accept that others do.

Atheosis said:

I kind of agree with this concept, if only because it would make 40k army lists neater. My reading always was:-

- Radical Ordo Malleus Inquisitors can use Daemonhosts, but can't use Grey Knights. Puritan Ordo Malleus Inquisitors can use Grey Knights, but can't use Daemonhosts .

 -Radical Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors can use (Unknown) but can't use Adepta Sororitas. Puritan Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors can use Adepta Sororitas, but can't use (Unknown).
 

- Radical Ordo Xenos Inquisitors can use (Unknown) but can't use the Deathwatch. Puritan Ordo Xenos Inquisitors can use Deathwatch, but can't use (Unknown).

If I were to write up a new Inquisitor's army list, for the first unknown, I'd say "Witches," really ultra powerful psykers enslaved to the radical hereticus inquisitor.  For the second, the obvious answer is "aliens," exotic new races of Xenos prepare to throw their lot in with radical Inquisitors.  

This is all pretty simplistic stuff for the TT game.  For example, in DH, a radical Ordo Malleus Inquisitor would quite cheerfully work alongside the Grey Knights, but he'd make damned sure to keep his Daemonhosts locked up so the Grey Knights didn't find out about them. In the TT game, this is easily represented by not allowing the units representing opposing philosophies to be in the same army at the same time.

Lightbringer said:

Of course, this also assumes (and perpetuates) the absurd stereotype that all radicals are cackling daemonologists and the like whose dubious methods may as well be written on their faces in luminous skinplant electoos for all to see...

Radicalism is as much a matter of personal beliefs and a decision towards unorthodox methods as it is anything else; more extreme radicals of certain factions/beliefs may well employ daemonhosts, sorcery and other blasphemous methods, but they're hardly the majority, much as omnicidal Monodominants willing to condemn worlds to death to slay a handful of heretics are hardly the majority when it comes to Puritans.

Puritanism and Radicalism are shades of grey, not absolutes.

Essentially, an Inquisitor with the right contacts, the right support and the right leverage can obtain the assistance of the Deathwatch, and so long as he doesn't do anything obviously heretical/blasphemous (remembering that the Astartes tend not to persecute religious wars, mainly because their own Chapter Cults are deemed borderline heretical by the Ecclesiarchy; they're the Emperor's warriors, not the an army for the Church), they're likely to give him the benefit of the doubt and not shoot him in the face.

Yes, you're absolutely right. This approach is very simplistic and would only really work on the TableTop. DH and DW should always be played in a far more nuanced and complex fashion. I was restricting these thoughts to the TT game. GMs should actively seek to challenge player's perceptions of radicalism with these kind of issues, just as you say.  

Like I said, a Deathwatch team wouldn't knowingly follow the orders of a Radical.  Of course few are better than Inquisitors at keeping secrets.  The main point I was trying to make is that Deathwatch Marines aren't just going to salute and smile while an Inquisitor secures some unholy Necron relic or the like.  It would be a lot messier than that.  As far as C'tan phase swords and similar, lesser Xenos items, I tend to feel such things simply aren't significant enough to really raise most Marines' ire.  A Marine wouldn't use such a weapon and once he noticed it, would be disgusted, but he likely wouldn't execute the user seeing as such equipment has long been appropriated for the Imperium's use.  That said, an Inquisitor seen using a C'tan weapon or the like would have some serious image problems in a Deathwatch Marine's eyes, and would likely be regarded with a fair bit of suspicion from then on. 

Also, the Deathwatch are tasked with aiding Ordo Xenos Inquisitors in research missions.  I seem to recall a bit in the Necron Codex about a Deathwatch Kill Team managing to tag a few Necrons with specialized bolt-shells with tracking systems mounted in them so that the Ordo Xenos could figure out where the frak the Necrons went when they phased out.

They are not utterly opposed to retrieving samples of Xenos tech or material for researching how best to defend against them or kill them, so they might not be utterly opposed to working with an Inquisitor who, say, had a Shuriken Catapult he pried from the cold, dead hands of a Dire Avenger Exarch.

Atheosis said:

It should be noted that one of the roles of the Deathwatch is the recovery of Xenos artefacts for study and (sometimes) potential use by the Imperium; C'Tan Phase Swords are reportedly an example of such an item.

Atheosis said:

Well, as everything, it depends on the type of Chapter the Deathwatch Marine originats and type of Radical. Relictor wouldn´t have that great problems with Xanthite (I think it was even covered in Chapter Approved in one White Dwarf) even if he knows his true nature, one of the most notorious Xanthites, Kobras Aquierre (sp?) even counted among his forces strike cruiser with strikeforce/company of Charnel Guard Chapter. Oblationist could have work alongside member of Exorcists Chapter. What are the true alligiances of mysterious Red Hunters Chapter in their willing service og Inquisition? Would a Flesh Tearer have problems with Istvaanist practices? And employing some chapters of Cursed Founding is at least in my opinion Radical act itself.

Two really good books to read on this subject if you like the paperback novels are Warrior Brood and Warrior Coven. It has been a while since I have read the two, but in Warrior Brood an Inquisitor has a Deathwatch team go planet side and retrieves a xenos artifact from a research facility. In Warrior Coven the Deathwatch team has to side with the Eldar to combat are larger threat. Some of the material is a little off, but it does try and stay true to the mythos.

aeonsin said:

NO! Do not mention those two novels as any form of 'reference material', ever. EVER. C.S. Goto is a hackjob author who makes Stephanie Meyer look like Shakespeare in comparison.