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phild said:
My thinking is that Strength allows you to carry, Toughness is what lets you carry for a long time. As such, the two interlink on this mechanic. An alternative would be something like 1 Fatigue for every Str+2 encumberance. But that's just a bit fiddlier.
You have a point here. I will think about it, but I like it.
The Book of the Asur: a High Elves fan supplement for WFRP 3rd ed.
Secrets of the Anvil: a Runecrafting fan supplement for WFRP 3rd ed.
Libro Monstra: A fan made creature guide
Denizens of the Old World: A fan made resurce of NPCs
The Dark Side: a fan supplement for Witches, Warlocks & Magisters in WFRP 3rd ed.
Well you are right yepesnopes your thought :
"Following this proposition, the stronger you are, the more you can carry, the more fatigated you will be. I have to think if this makes sense."
I dont believe that there is a hidden threshold for "how much you can carry" in our physike that can be enhanced. If your muskles improve so will be able to lift/carry more but that doesent mean you can do this for a long time. The endurance is covered in TO in this system and i belive it does it well. So yes you will be able to lift more with more ST and you can carry more if you got more TO than a PC that doesent has those high stats. but it will also fatigue you more thats just right isent it ? Plus you regain those "fatigue" if you throw your backpack to the ground before a fight. Me and my group will test this next session and i will tell you guys how it worked out !
Who honors those we love with the very life we live?
Who sends monsters to kill us,at the same time sings that we'll never die?
Who teaches us what's real,how to laugh at lies?
Who decides why we live,what we'll die to defend?
Who chains us,who holds the key to set us free?
It's you. You have all the weapons you need. Now fight!
Nishra said:
Well you are right yepesnopes your thought :
"Following this proposition, the stronger you are, the more you can carry, the more fatigated you will be. I have to think if this makes sense."
I dont believe that there is a hidden threshold for "how much you can carry" in our physike that can be enhanced. If your muskles improve so will be able to lift/carry more but that doesent mean you can do this for a long time. The endurance is covered in TO in this system and i belive it does it well. So yes you will be able to lift more with more ST and you can carry more if you got more TO than a PC that doesent has those high stats. but it will also fatigue you more thats just right isent it ? Plus you regain those "fatigue" if you throw your backpack to the ground before a fight.
Indeed, the decoupling from St and To makes sense.
Nishra said:
Me and my group will test this next session and i will tell you guys how it worked out !
That is great! I am looking forward to hear the results! Keep me posted please.
The Book of the Asur: a High Elves fan supplement for WFRP 3rd ed.
Secrets of the Anvil: a Runecrafting fan supplement for WFRP 3rd ed.
Libro Monstra: A fan made creature guide
Denizens of the Old World: A fan made resurce of NPCs
The Dark Side: a fan supplement for Witches, Warlocks & Magisters in WFRP 3rd ed.
Yepesnopes said:
[quote]
Nishra said:
Me and my group will test this next session and i will tell you guys how it worked out !
[/quote]
That is great! I am looking forward to hear the results! Keep me posted please.
Me too! This is probably the first houserule I'm going to pinch. Encumbrance is the first thing I felt needed adjusting - I'm a relative newbie, but Warhammer World doesn't feel like a place where adventurers walk around in plate armour, carrying backpacks and 10' poles. This rule feels like it has the right balance of being easy to understand, simple to implement and effective in making characters think hard about how much they carry - whilst not overly nerfing any one type of character.
Nishra said:
If it is that easy to work around the hindrance of wearing heavy armour, would it even be worth implementing? Granted there is no way to just throw a suit of armour on the ground to regain the fatigue penalty, but a heavily armoured character will just make sure they travel light and make another character in the party carry their stuff for them.
Also by tying the penalty to fatigue directly into encumbrance you are hitting everyone who carryies anything, as opposed to just the heavily armoured blokes. So in that respect you will have players trying to micromanage their encumbrance accross the board. And given the loosey goosey nature of encumbrance in the RAW, you might have to work in a subsequent pile of house-rules to allow players to really manage their gear outlay.
I LIKE the route you guys are going, so I hope I'm not coming off as a Johnny-come-lately nay sayer. I'm just tossing up some counter points to play Devil's Advocate.
"One fled, one dead, one sleeping on a golden bed" ~ Rogues in the House, R.E. Howard
Callidon said:
Nishra said:
If it is that easy to work around the hindrance of wearing heavy armour, would it even be worth implementing? Granted there is no way to just throw a suit of armour on the ground to regain the fatigue penalty, but a heavily armoured character will just make sure they travel light and make another character in the party carry their stuff for them.[/quote]
And that's fair enough. That's what a sensible person should do, drop all the heavy gear once the fighting starts, so it's really evidence of the rule achieving its goal. After all, out of combat, fatigue isn't such an issue anyway.
[quote]
Also by tying the penalty to fatigue directly into encumbrance you are hitting everyone who carryies anything, as opposed to just the heavily armoured blokes.
Again, that's the intention. Anyone going into a fight carrying a backpack, bedroll, lantern and two week's rations frankly deserves to get it handed to them. So you're describing a feature, not a flaw.
phild said:
Again, that's the intention. Anyone going into a fight carrying a backpack, bedroll, lantern and two week's rations frankly deserves to get it handed to them. So you're describing a feature, not a flaw.
"One fled, one dead, one sleeping on a golden bed" ~ Rogues in the House, R.E. Howard
So, we tried and tested the rule…and it feels harsh, grim and so much more like Warhammer.
We use the "5enc for 1 fatigue" as a rule of thumb micro-managing to get to 9 enc or 14 isn’t happening and everybody liked the rule from a player´s perspective. Fighters who need to buy movement with fatigue don’t have that many anymore and mages/priests aren’t really that affected.
I might add that we introduced it in a "save" place so we were in a tavern and nobody was in a situation where it could lead up to problems in an instant ( don’t introduce this 3 minutes before a fight…really don’t it kills ppl ^^°)
Id propose you try this out yourselves its really easy to manage and adds to the overall feeling of a harsh world and also will lead to good play from your players since they leave stuff in the base camp (and start building a camp in general since they need to deposit tents etc. there). You now won’t always have a shovel with you, or a rope when you need it since you might have left it in the camp to stay light which leads to improvising.
This reminds me of a scene…or a realm were encumbrance also makes a difference…and there somebody told his friends :
" We will not abandon Merry and Pippin to torment and death. Not while we have strength left. Leave all that can be spared behind. We travel light. Let's hunt some Orc."
Who honors those we love with the very life we live?
Who sends monsters to kill us,at the same time sings that we'll never die?
Who teaches us what's real,how to laugh at lies?
Who decides why we live,what we'll die to defend?
Who chains us,who holds the key to set us free?
It's you. You have all the weapons you need. Now fight!
Nishra said:
So, we tried and tested the rule…and it feels harsh, grim and so much more like Warhammer.
We use the "5enc for 1 fatigue" as a rule of thumb micro-managing to get to 9 enc or 14 isn’t happening and everybody liked the rule from a player´s perspective. Fighters who need to buy movement with fatigue don’t have that many anymore and mages/priests aren’t really that affected.
I might add that we introduced it in a "save" place so we were in a tavern and nobody was in a situation where it could lead up to problems in an instant ( don’t introduce this 3 minutes before a fight…really don’t it kills ppl ^^°)
Id propose you try this out yourselves its really easy to manage and adds to the overall feeling of a harsh world and also will lead to good play from your players since they leave stuff in the base camp (and start building a camp in general since they need to deposit tents etc. there). You now won’t always have a shovel with you, or a rope when you need it since you might have left it in the camp to stay light which leads to improvising.
This reminds me of a scene…or a realm were encumbrance also makes a difference…and there somebody told his friends :
" We will not abandon Merry and Pippin to torment and death. Not while we have strength left. Leave all that can be spared behind. We travel light. Let's hunt some Orc."
*Like* :)
Thought about this a bit more in the car in to work this morning…
Nishra said:
We use the "5enc for 1 fatigue" as a rule of thumb micro-managing to get to 9 enc or 14 isn’t happening
On this point, I think I'd exercise a rule of thumb along the lines of "2 rounds of active exertion for every point under the the threshold" - after this, I'd slap down a Fatigue point, so there's minimal advantage to "optimising" encumbrance.
I was also wondering about where the penalty kicks in, and was thinking that maybe the first 5 points of encumbrance should be free (first 10 if you're a dwarf), and the permanent fatigue only kicks in after that? Or rather than 5 points, number of points equal to Strength?
Armour is a long debated point in RPGs.
While I will not judge these house rules, I can't refrain from adding some points to the ones expressed here.
[quote]
Well WFRP doesent account the fact that Plate-armor not only replaced chain/chainmail becouse it offered far better protection but also costed a lot less time and money to manufacture. Its the superrior armour on the field of honor or was…when the longbows and later on the gunpowder-weapons were introduced and made armor kind of useless.
[/quote]
Well, longbows wheren't that plate killer we are compelled to believe.
[quote]
Is it realy harder to hide in armor ?
Well you could say so, to balance the far better protection of plate vs leather but ! It dosent mirror reality at all. You can hide in plate as well as in leather if your plate isent polished to be shining silver…if you´d want that (and get a bonus on charm checks i.e) you will get penaltys in hiding.
[/quote]
1) Noise. Plate armor is noisy. Very noisy. Even a careful step will have some buckle, spoulder, kneecop to "ding" on another piece.
2) Size. Clad in plate armour you are much more cumbersame. Try walk in-house. You'll start hitting all sorts of things. Try it!
3) Kneeling or retain crouched positions. Your muscle will start hurting A LOT after small periods.
4) Stand up/crouch times: while good armours will allow you to do these things confortably, you will be slower nonethless, and you will need at least one hand to standup or crouch/go prone. In either case check point 1.
5) Visibilty is the last concern. Blackened armour was known and often used.
[quote]
Is it harder to sneak in armor ?
Sure armor will moste likely give you some disadvantage due that the chain might russel or the plate might make some klanking sounds but leather itselve does that too…its more a "gnrall squish" sound but its there and will give away your position just as fine. Leather armor is just as stiff as metall if you use it as armor. True it will bend provided enough pressure but that doesent mean you can sneak better in it.
[/quote]
1) Well padded chain is like a glove. No sound at all.
2) plate will klang a lot.
3) Oiled leather is very quiete. But alas… no one gone in battles with leathers armour. That's an RPG novelty. leather was a complement to chain.
[quote]
So when heavy armor a bad idea ? When you climb or swim ?
Well armor wont hampe you when you climb a tree or a wall if you have enough strengh and endurance, it will drown you though when you try to swim in it.
[/quote]
Armor will hamper you. While fitted armor are mobile, STR isn't a mobility factor. You simply can't do some movement since armor will lock in place and limit your agility. No way to reduce it. Expecially raising your arm up is troublesome, since spoulder can get stuck somevere.
Not to mention gothic armor with bevor, gauntlets and sabaton. Definitely you can climb a wooden stair, but a tree, while possibile, is not routine at all.
Swimming in armour is possibile, but expecially tiring. You will sink, exhausted, in seconds.
Well DeathfromAbove i dont know were your "quote" all came from or what kind of information your peers got to make you think they got facts not make-believs or simply theier own oppinion which they though might mirror history.
Some of the points you state there are correct, many aren´t and i wont pick every one point in detail. (But a.e "plate makes noise" ? it can as well be pattet with leather on the joints etc. no vaild points there)
The idea of a system is not to mirror the reality at all it´s designt to make it usefull the rest is up to you. If youd like a thousand rules for evey piece of armor, equipment or item feel free to do so me and my group wouldent like it.
We here tryed to desidn one house rule that is A. Simpel B. Easy to use C. covering the weight/hinderence of armor
And thus we did !
@phild
We though just about the same thing and agreed that it might be usefull but its just to much effort, is a rule of thumb nothing more. Sure you can give one free enc/perm.fatigue to your players if you´d like. The intention however was to reflect that evey ounce you carry with you will have a noticable effekt on your overall performance. Ceep in mind though you dont get 1-perm.fatigue when you carry only 4-5 enc but if you take more like 6-8 (or a plate armor) with you. So the first 5 are "free" already !
Who honors those we love with the very life we live?
Who sends monsters to kill us,at the same time sings that we'll never die?
Who teaches us what's real,how to laugh at lies?
Who decides why we live,what we'll die to defend?
Who chains us,who holds the key to set us free?
It's you. You have all the weapons you need. Now fight!
Well, I don a lot of armours, from chain, to plate, to leather, passing through brigandine, scale and lamellar and various roman lorica.
I've simply added something to your points. You are free to ignore my additions or discard them as untrue 
Just one last thing: In my experience joints will not produce much noise in plate armors, and can be padded with leather and velvet (much higher cost and maintenance), but the overlapping plates of various pieces: an arm hitting the breastplate, the spoulder on the helm, gauntlet on the tight, the buckle of the armpit, the armored skirt.
Every movement you'll do that isn't walking very carfully, will make klank.
Good luck for your rules :)
Ieeeps! I am back from some holidays.
Good to hear that you tested the rules. I have a game shortly where I will test the rules, but I am going to aim for a higher difficulty regarding the recovering of the permanent fatigue. As a coincidence, during my holidays I have been hikking throught the Atlas in Morocco with a heavy backpack (the bastard should have been encumbrance 7 at least!), and I can tell you that it is not easy to get rid of your fatigue and muscle aching 
The Book of the Asur: a High Elves fan supplement for WFRP 3rd ed.
Secrets of the Anvil: a Runecrafting fan supplement for WFRP 3rd ed.
Libro Monstra: A fan made creature guide
Denizens of the Old World: A fan made resurce of NPCs
The Dark Side: a fan supplement for Witches, Warlocks & Magisters in WFRP 3rd ed.
Just a simple thought, regarding the extra exhaustion of weighted armour. The global fatigue effect is worsened, in effect.
Medium Armor: All physical checks gain "[ba]: Suffer 1 Fatigue."
Heavy Armor: All physical checks gain "[ba]: Suffer 1 Fatigue. This effect may be triggered twice."
Much less book-keeping, but provides the feel that overexerting yourself in armour is more taxing. The first round of climbing isn't so bad, but if you can't take your time, you're apt to exhaust yourself before you get to the top.
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