Chacha said:

First of all, "opinions" are like assholes; Unless you're living together, nobody cares that you has one.

His opinion is wrong because it is not based on facts. Instead of reinventing the wheel, we suggested that he worked with the system, which is just fine. Some things the Missionary and the Seneschal can do is already borderline overpowered when it comes to their special abilities, compared to especially someone like the Explorator, that gets nothing except a prereq. for later talents - mechanically speaking - only implants. Implants anyone can get. The Missionary gets an incredibly useful Special Ability that also acts as a prereq. for Career-defining talents.

What do you want us to suggest? Everything we can possibly suggest to "fix" the Special Abilities of the Seneschal or the Missionary will result in them becoming wildly overpowered compared to all the others.

HappyDaze said:

A good point that would, perhaps, hold more water had not several people already thrown a shitfit over Magellan being impolite….

 

Fgdsfg said:

 

This is an interesting post. You start out by expressing the opinion, irony surely not intended, that opinions are like assholes In other words, no one cares that you have one. You then go on to misuse the word opinion, claiming that they can be right or wrong when the very definition of the word is that it is a subjective belief.. Protip: Opinions are not facts. They need not be based on them. You can think they are stupid, misinformed and lacking in basis, but you cannot claim that they are wrong. You're free to disagree with how someone thinks about things, especially in something as subjective as a gaming experience. Which is why Magellan, in his starting post, made it quite clear that he thought Seneschals and Missionaries had underpowered abilities. Now, if he had said that these classes were, objectivly, weak and useless then he would have been wrong because, as said, you can't judge a gaming experience on an objective scale.

 

But, you also raised an interesting question. What does Magellan want you to suggest? The answer to that we can find back in his original post, where he expressed a desire to hear suggestions on what these classes can do that others can't and how to improve the classes' special abilities. While he never did specify that he did not want to hear people tell him that his opinion was objectivly wrong, I am quite sure he wouldn't have wanted that either. So then, what could you have done? Well, for one thing, offering helpful suggestions of improving the characters that Magellan felt were underpowered instead of telling him that he was wrong.

 

With all due respect, did you even proofread what you just wrote? You deride people for having opinions, for having opinions different then yours… and then go on to express your own opinions as if they had any sort of objective "rightness" to them.

 

Just my three-fiddy, this time.

Chacha said:

Which they do.

Want a suggestion on how to improve special abilities? Make them kill everyone on the table when you use them. Turn everyone into a psyker. Allow them to shoot Exterminatus out of their eyes.

At which point is too much too much? Nobody can give constructive advice on how to balance something that is already reasonably balanced, without unbalancing it. If anything, any suggestion aimed at "improving" these particular special abilities will only unbalance things further, because some of them are already - arguably - more powerful than others (Pure Faith vs. Mechanicus Implants, for example).

I will not sully myself by acting as condescending and know-it-all as you seem so keen on doing. Instead, I will offer you this question: If the balance is so obviously perfect and any attempt at tampering with it would result in the game being Ruined Forever, then could you perhaps enlighten us on how Magellan finds those classes sub-optimal compared to the rest? This after he has stated that in his games, they are sub-optimal. And yes, you must answer this with an actual argument. You can't just say that he is playing the game wrong or that he is misunderstanding the rules. You don't know that.

Chacha said:

Well, for starters only Magellan himself could really answer that question, don't you think? The only thing we know is that in his games they "hardly ever get anyone playing a Priest or a Seneschal" because "their special abilities are totally lame".  He did not go into very much detail as to why he considered them so very lame, so we can only speculate on the matter until the guy exposes his point himself. Perhaps the Seneschal's interaction-oriented Special Abilities did not mesh with the kind of campaign he was playing. Perhaps they didn't encounter situations were the Priest's acts of faith came heavily into play with enough regularity. Perhaps he simply misinterpreted the abilities and thought they were underpowered as a result. Who knows? (except Magellan, that is).

Now could everyone please calm down a bit? This is rapidly degenerating into a flame war.

Chacha said:

First of all, I never claimed that the balance is perfect (or that it even needs to be), or that it would somehow be "ruined forever" by tampering. Quite the opposite, I tamper with the system almost daily.

But more importantly; How can I possibly answer this question without the input of Magellan? We only have his "opinions" to go off. Opinions that we have explained are unwarranted and unfounded. It is entirely possible that he is playing the game wrong or that he is misunderstanding the rules. Without his input on the matter or willingness to argue the points presented, it is impossible to say.

His statement that, as you say, "in his games, they are sub-optimal" only leads me to believe that he has no idea what sub-optimal means. Because unless he's doing something terribly wrong, there is no reason whatsoever that they should be sub-optimal to a noticeable degree. The Seneschal and the Missionary doesn't just have good Special Abilities, they have great Special Abilities. Objectively.

sounds to me like the biggest problem here is magellan's players just dont like those characters. oh well. they happen to be my 2 favorite classes and I've never even used the business-ninja's special ability. I have no advice on improving 'automatically pass any lore test' or 'immunity to daemons' that i wouldn't think overpowered the class.

supposing the idea that everyone is arguing over semantics instead of answering the question, I'd assume nobody knows how to boost the classes, and therefore, you ought to boost them your own way or cut your losses and play a no-missionary/seneschal campaign. throw a couple daemons with undecipherable tomes on them, then tell your group how useful those classes would be.

all my opinion

 I've always had a Seneschal in my games in some capacity (One designed his character explicitly around having no lores, but running him as a sort of suave James Bond secret agent) but I've yet to have a missionary. One thing I tend to do is give the Seneschal a spy network that garners experience and abilities as he progresses. It was always a discrete increase though, he never knew when he'd be getting a new ability or what skill focus they would present with next.

Priest characters have a power no one else can have, and I'm not talking about faith but charge of office.

Priest in the Warhammer 40K universe are not only priest…

They are the bearer of the words of the Emperor (and yes I use a heretic quote… Lorgar should be happy his heresy is now the fondation of the Imperium).

They are light in the darkness (sure those are as often the light of burniong corpses as the enlightement of the soul).

They are people you don't want to mess with because attack a missionary is attacking the church.

Ok, you will say that's great but what the fuck for xenos and off limits of the Imperium.

The answer is the link beetween the cultures. Most of the world colonised by man had been rediscover by the crusade 10000 years ago, all of them had been taught an Imperial creed. The priest is the diplomat the one who will know what to say or not, what to do or not.

 

And just to finish my point, and I know I will be hate for it, but most of you do not know how to play RPG.

RPG is not about stats and being the best and have the better gear and capacityn and weapon and look my bright new 50 points armor with no penality for concealment and weighting the same as a small book…

RPG are Role Playing Game not mmo RPG, you play characters because of the feeling you get with, because of the pleasure you will have to be for a time somebody else, act react, cry, laught, feel… Sometime even because you could imagine a bound beetween you and a character.

RPG is about the art of story telling and actor not points. It is far from the first time I read post like that.

And about the original post maybe you should find players with more love for the role than for the rolls.

Thebigjul said:

And I think that is the reason more than anything that it seems - to me - that so many doesn't want to play Missionaries. It is also the main appeal of the Career, I would think.

Much like DnD Paladins, they can be a source of much inter-party conflict because - again, it is the impression I have gotten - lots of groups either play somewhat-radicals or at least include people that are partway radical. Or worse. In fact, much of the background of the game suggests precisely this - Dynasties being formed to get rid of troublesome individuals or families, Tech-priests that get sent on Explorator missions to avoid societal or theological conflicts, misfit navymen, degenerate nobles and war-weary militants.

I get the feeling that the Missionary in this - despite there quite clearly being radicals amongst the ecclesiarchy and inquisition itself - sticks out like a sore thumb. The Missionary has.. what? Two viable alternate career options? One, Torchbearer, is essentially a ranger-paladin multiclass aimed at taking the Faith to the frontier by arms. The other is a charlatan peddling fake relics, like a truly fallen priest. You could also argue that the Drusian Adherent might be suitable for a Missionary, but that's arguable, considering that the Drusian Adherent is more of a priestly option for everyone else, rather than the other way around.

Want to trade with xenos? That's heretical. Want to have a xeno in the crew? That's heretical. Anyone gains a mutation? That's extra heretical. Nevermind having an Explorator that wants to graft some fancy Necron Gauss weapons to his sternum. It's legal, yes, because you are on the frontier and you have a warrant of trade. But religion isn't about legality.

I just think that there should be more options for Missionaries to conform to the realities of the Koronus Expanse. Dark Heresy is shock-full of options for radicals or those on the fringe of the Ecclesiarchy or in the Inquisition - and describes a mountain of organisations that would be appropriate for a Missionary that is playing Rogue Trader. Nevermind the fact that a player easily could come up with options on their own, with some know-how of the universe.

It would be nice with a Rogue Trader supplement dealing with religion in the Koronus Expanse or fringe radicals.

It all boils down to the type of campaign you're playing. Just as not all Rogue Traders will want an easily bored alien hooligan running around their ship, and few will tolerate the company of a Chaos Reaver or run the risk of associating with a Secessionist, the adequacy of the Missionary depends on the group and the tone of the game. What makes the Missionary's case egregious is the fact that it's a core class, but if the group is striving to combat Chaos pirates close to Iniquity then he's almost essential. Or if they're working to rediscover ancient human colonies and bring them back to the fold of the Imperium (for a nice comission, of course), or if they're founding their own colonies. 

The main sticking point is precisely his Pure Faith, with implies a total and honest adherence to the Emperor's message, a level of conviction so pure that it actually hurts the denizens of the Warp. However, it should be pointed out that the Emperor's message is not necessarily the same as the Imperial Creed. Perhaps he follows the spirit but not the letter of Imperial Dogma, which likely got him into trouble and pushed his towards the frontier. Perhaps he believes that mutants should be pitied and offered succuor, not just maligned and burnt. Perhaps he even has the radical idea that sufficiently civilized aliens could be converted to the light of the Emperor (There was one such individual that tried this with the Tau. It ended in tragedy, but at least he gave it a shot). In my experience many people have trouble moving away from the stereotype of Father Burninator Mc.Killyoudead, from the Shrine World of Youfilthyheretic Prime, but having been a man before being a God, the Emperor is a very complex deity and his worship is as multifaceted as the Imperium itself.

JuankiMan said:

I would also stress that there is nothing that actually says that these powers are in fact granted by the Emperor. It could be faith and conviction alone that ends up creating feats of miracle. What is most important, then, is that the Missionary believes his own cause right and just, and in line with the goals of the Emperor.

Everything we objectively know about the Emperor (a knowledge "current-day" Imperials would rarely or never have) leads me to believe that in no way, fashion or form would he support the Ecclesiarchy or the claims of his supposed divinity. Yet miracles clearly happen and clearly radicals experience them as much as puritans. Supposedly.

I'm not saying that Missionaries are de facto shallow. All I was saying is that I would like to see them get a bit meat on their bones in Rogue Trader.

First I want to apologise for being quite agressive in my previous post. People plmay what they like and how they like.

Second, maybe a little look at the DH books about ecclesiarchy could help you to have a batter understanding at how large the imperial creed can be.

Third, yes they can have faith but it is not a default talent, you can limit it by honest RP from your player to get it and after keep it. (my DH GM play it like it with me and it was good).

Fourth, as actually few member of the church is true in his faith and they are all looking for dominion on the material world instead of focusing on the spiritual world. That also could be an ailm for a priest being with a RT.

And I explain, RT discover planet or rediscover. Senechal and Arch Militant will see at the good working of the new colony, but who is going to order a cathedral, take his share of taxes, offering, gift and else for the rest of the souls of the heird they are making? Who could engage a population to take arms in the name of the ecclesiarchy ( and then for the missionary) taking great lands and cities, transforming a place in a ecclessiuarchy stronghold only responding to him?

At the end he can be a real treat or asset for the RT.

Who else have an ascendant over the crew of the spaceship taking care of the souls of the travellers against the deamon of the warp.

It is already working today, look at the USA and the Crusade against the axe of evil….scary. Put god in a sentence and a great country turns to be no more than a freaking lot of zealous white christian fanatics.( and I know all americans aren(t like that, same thing for us french, some of us have good personnal hygene).lol

Have fun!

I would like to say i agree with pretty much everyone here saying there's no need for change to these 2 Characters.

Anyway, i have no idea how to "improve" the sceneschals special power. As for the missionary, if you have access to Blood of Martyrs (DH Supplement for the church) you could try to convert their faith power system to Roguetrader. In my opinion the new powers are more powerful than the old ones, but you need to buy more than one power to get the real powerhouse faith powers.

In both my previous game as well as my current one, I've always had players eager to play a Seneschal. The same can't be said for the Missionary. My players largely like to play up the 'rogue' aspect of Rogue Trader, and they've just not felt that the current options available with the Missionary really promote an open approach to the career. For both games, I've had NPC Missionaries aboard, and they make great mouthpieces to occasionally remind the PCs that there are some things that go beyond the bounds of acceptable behavior even for RTs (Explorators can do much the same from the angle of the Adeptus Mechanicus).