I would assume that the Saboteur (the missing class from Radicals that got released as part of the PDF- Salvation Demands Sacrifice) would the best at Sabotaging, and anybody can become a Saboteur except for Tech-priests and Sororitas. Its available at Rank 3- and its pretty damned good for a class, I would say, in terms of relevance. 

It would be a shame if he's out-shined by the Tech-priest now, seeing as the Saboteur doesn't have any neat unique abilities- he just takes all the relevant talents and skills into one box for those people that want to play a Saboteur [In Function]. 

And Tech-priests should be horrified at the Idea of sabotaging something with a Machine Spirit. Maybe the blowing a bridge up is no  big deal- but blowing a mechanical bridge up by say frying or overloading its control-consoles would be a lot more questionable [Unless the Sacrifice was absolutely necessary for some greater Omnissian Good]… 

As for the Topic at hand- I am glad to hear that Amicus Tole and the other Hereteks have some book-space reserved for them, but hopefully they will be covered in greater detail in than the CA or Radical's Handbook- now whats important is that everything matches and that it doesn't contradict each other (Cyclopea Vs Sinophia anyone?). In my games, Amicus Tole is going to play a Major role- so I look forward to hear what FFG has to say about him, but they'll hopefully leave his past a bit of a mystery? I don't want to have to ret-con any of it :P 

I am a bit disappointed that there aren't any background packages or cell directives or better, but I guess power creep makes this a good thing: I wouldn't want all of my players to just pick the same background over and over again [Living Nightmare anyone?]- or just more rules to play around it when it comes to biological experimentation (but we have a framework with that in a few of the other books.) I hope the book will have a LOT more augmentics in it… but that's a double-edged sword: if it does, they are likely to be taken STRAIGHT from Rogue Trader and (as we saw in Book of Judgement) they are likely not to be even priced. 

Some rules on converting Thrones to influence (with the various weapon producing organizations? the lathes and the munitorium) would have been a good idea and would have allowed for more connections with the other lines. 

In any case- my copy shouldn't be long forthcoming now: Had to Order it from the US because it doesn't seem to be out in Canada yet. Isn't that weird? Same thing for tome of fate, preordered ages ago- but it says it comes out in January 2013…

Well, I had completely forgotten about that rank, the whole little supplement actually.

Upon cross-checking it though, we in fact find that the Mech-Assassin isn't the best saboteur, and really… saboteur isn't an accurate description of what they do (it's just latching on to one power and their Tech-Use skill, like that's all there is to the character).

So in short, surprise surprise, the complaints are bullshit! Like they always are half the time.

The Saboteur is an expert in demolitions, chem-use, security, and can get a basic understanding of Tech. While Mech-Assassins can get the basic level for only a couple of those (no we're not looking at regular careers, cause that could be almost any career for the Saboteur).

So upon further examination, the Mech-Assassin is merely an extremely tech-themed assassin, with a few special tricks up his sleeve (not the best saboteur in the game) that specifically relate to technology, and that's it. Oh woe to the game, all is lost! (watch ya don't trip someone when your knee is jerking around now).

I hate to repeat the same question, but it got kinda lost in the hype over the Crimson Guard…

But how exactly is The Flesh Is Weak talents a Tech Priest gains now reconciled with The Flesh Is Weak talents an Ascension level Magos gets?

Are the Magos talents just overruled now? Replaced by a cheaper source of TFiW until they get to the point where Magos offers something better? I have a DW game going with a Magos in the party, and I'm trying to determine how I'm going to treat this at my table.

Currently, I'm refunding XP but forcing the same "slow" progression through the talents. A bit of a mix of the two, but sort of inconsistent.

Plushy said:

I agree that in some cases GM discretion (to either reign in the tech-priest or give a little boost to the rest of the party) is required, but I have a few gripes with your argument :

1 - Factors will not hopelessly out-moxie said Scum anytime soon. They only get up to +10 skill advances, with no other existing way to get them, nor a way to get +20s, whereas said scum can take the Demagogue alternate career rank as soon as he hits rank 3. And while they can get fellowship advances, they aren't magically free.

2 - As previously said, the Mech-Assassin isn't going to steal a real assassin's job, for a couple of reason : they have bad agility and the only stealth skill they get over +0 is silent movement. The talents they get are nice, but not broken. They are meh in sabotage, especially compared to Saboteur(which they can't become), their only great feature is Cogs within Cogs which, in the hands of an imaginative and devious player, is admittedly a pretty sweet ability.

3 - A tech-priest can be a great(broken?) combat character(Mechanicus Secutor, pre-ascension tFiW and the new Lumen Talents don't hurt either), a decent social character(Factor), a good cloak and dagger character(Mech-Assassin and Agent of the Lords Dragon), and of course a great tech-guy(duh). However, where in the name of the Void Dr- I mean Omnissiah do you propose to find all the XP required to accomplish all that pre-Ascension?

NOW, when it comes to the Crimson Guard? Yeah, that needs a more active role from the GM to balance the party, like with the Sororitas. How? Well have the Inquisitor give the other players a little bit of gear, like a hellgun(whatever model you prefer) and some better armor for the Guardsmen, the Arbites shotgun and armor from the Book of Judgment for the Arbiter, whatever equipment suits the Assassin and Scum best(like a Lathe sword for the Moritat, a fancy pistol or two for the Metallican gunslinger).

Of course that might be how I view DH : by all rights you should be slaughtered like in Call of Cthulhu, but through a combination of Faith, Skill, Luck, Determination and Standard-issue Brass Balls you either prevent the Heretic, the Alien and the Daemon from kicking Mankind in the groin, or give them a stubbed toe for their effort.

Well I know The Lathe Worlds is out in Canada, I bought it in Winnipeg over a week ago.

Am I the only one dissappointed in how little material there is on the Lathe Worlds, in a source book called The Lathe Worlds? Six or seven pages (including art and NPC's) out of 144? Couldn't FFG have cut some of the minor demenses and added some more detail on Het? Iocanthos got more of a write -up in the main book.

That gripe aside, what's in there is good.

I have a question for the future. What will a crimson guard wish to be when he grows up (hits ascension)?
And Lathemaster too fot that matter.

KommissarK said:

Honestly I would add the two togeather. I know it might get to be a little much when all is said and done, but if they can get it from two different sources by all means let them have both.

ShadowRay said:

From a mechanical standpoint, being guardsmen and scum respectively they have the following options :

Crimson Guard : Inquisitor, Interrogator, Crusader, Storm Trooper and Vindicare

Scum : Inquisitor, Interrogator and Desperado.

Now comes my subjective and debatable point of view :

For the Venatorii, I'd probably rule out the Vindicare, as they don't really match well. If your Venatorii likes integrated melee weapons I'd rather point him to the Crusader, otherwise you can ask your GM to houserule the Storm Trooper to instead match the Crimson Guard's chosen armory, or you can start coming up with a convoluted reason why the Calixian Conclave would accept a Crimson Guard as an Inquisitor. They can make pretty decent ones though, especially when combined with Legate Investigator(which they can take), and well… Have you thought what the Lumen talents would look like with unnatural willpower?

For the not-space dwarf, you can either shoehorn him into the Holy Ordos, and a squ-*BLAM* short, stocky and bearded inquisitor is a funny thought. Otherwise you're stuck shoehorning him into the criminal mastermind career.

I don't think that I'll play any of them anytime soon. It was just something that was bugging me because these two doesn't really fit in their 'normal' path.
The answer will be found when someone will actually hit ascension.

Got my hands on a copy today!

Guess I wasn't looking hard enough.

In any case- comments: Where are the Arch-Hereteks!? Amicus?! Nomen!? Least they talk about Malygris… But the book sure spoils them techpriests :P (D'uh!) 

I think that the armory is… lacking though… compared to the other books… Not to mention the implants again, are a bit scarce… Lets not talk about the Tools and Gears…

The Alternate Ranks were Fun- Granted, I agree that the Crimson Guard is overly powerful, but I guess we'll have to impose some massive Rp restrictions pretty much the same as the Battle-sisters. 

I didn't like the Lathemasters… I don't think they fit in the universe… even if you plug in a different name on them… and what the hell is wrong with the cult of the pure form? Seriously? Try as I might, I don't see why anybody would ever want to go in there for any reason without some massive boosting. Maybe its because I already did the whole "vat-grown" limbs as replacement - I figured it would be a basic courtesy on behalf of the Inquisition if the acolytes lost limbs and did not want to be indebted to the Mechanicus or couldn't afford the Mechanical Limbs. But I guess these guys can, for some reason, use a Melta at rank 2? It seems that the mechanic for the two talents doesn't quite work out for it to be anything but a penalty.

The elite advances were cool- but why isn't discordant a Background package instead? Can you imagine a Discordant Untouchable or something? Would be quite horrible. 

The last chapters, detailing the locations and some NPCs- those were cool, always an interesting read. 

Overall though, I felt that Book of Judgement had the same number of pages- but was able to do much more with them. Don't ask me why. One thing I felt was lacking were the Universal Laws… Book of Judgement had two pages worth of Imperial Judgement… This Book skips some laws! I understand you can find all of them on the internet… but this is basic information that should have been present somewhere. 

The new Art is really cool though- and Integrated weapons are a good idea (If a wee-bit overpowered in the hands of the right people :P No pun intended!)

Overall, the book isn't my favorite- but it wasn't a waste in that a) I am a collector and b) My Tech-priest player will make a lot of use of it in terms of the new talents (which are epic), the new weapons, the new augmentics- and will likely leave everyone else in the dust.  

Saldre said:

I was just reading that particular part of BoJ last night. Two pages of infractions punished by Execution. Amusing to be sure, but I don't know if it was the best use of space.
Then again, maybe there just wasn't as much to be written on the Calixian Adeptus Arbites as there was the Calixian AdMech. I have no doubt that a ton of stuff was left out of The Lathe Worlds for word count considerations.

I got the impression they were trying not to retread to much territory here. Nomen Ryne, Amicus Tole and Vathek have all be touched on in previous books but Malygris has only be vaguely alluded to. It was nice to finally understand why he was so bad.   

Are Skitarii not included then?

Unfortunately not- but the Crimson Guard are the next best thing. 

Saldre said:

I wouldn't say it that way since Crimson Guard are intended to be a unit of high-end Skitarii (that still retain humanoid forms) unique to the Lathe Worlds.

Blood Pact said:

They may know the most about Technology, but I bet they would have "moral issues" taking out that same Technology.   My Imperial Guardsman, with Demo skill has no issues, and lots of Demo!!!