Security is kind of a moot point right now, the books are scanned within a week of release anyway. 

*edit* Yaaaay, unbroken code.

Which begs the question, why would anyone pay for a PDF?

To feel good about themselves for doing the right thing? If I spent money on a PDF version of something I would feel like a chump more than anything else. Atleast when you buy a book you know someone would not be able to have the exact same thing as you for nothing unless they stole it (not counting gifts of course)

Mind you illegally downloading a PDF copy it technically stealing, it just doesn't have the same stigma attached to it as stealing objects.

Graspar said:

Mostly unbroken...

This thread always shows being 'New' and has Kage2020 listed as the most recent poster despite me being unable to see any post by him since his last 'Code Breaking' one...

???

Lupinorc said:

Actually, it wouldn't take any more time at all.  In fact, once you have the copy set to send to the printer, you could actually have the PDF out before the hard copy.  It's as easy as dropping the document into Acrobat Pro and you're done.  But even the companies that do both hard copy and PDF won't release the PDF before the hard copy otherwise they would lose money on the hard copy.  So you publish the hard copy, wait a few weeks or months (depending on your ROI, etc.), then make the PDF available.  You actually end up making more money on it because of people like me who will buy both the hard copy and the PDF.

Lupinorc said:

I've paid for all my PDFs, except those given to me freely by the creators. The reason someone buys a PDF is because it meets a need or desire. It's the same reason someone buys anything, really. It's paying for a service or product. I never considered NOT paying for a PDF till I had someone show up at my game with stolen ones. Then I thought about it and decided it was morally reprehensible to steal, and while I still game with the individual in question, I don't really hang out with him, otherwise.

RPG PDFs are priced reasonably. Some might say they are too reasonably priced. I see myself as paying for the writing, development, and art. I'm not paying for the printing; that's why PDFs are cheaper. Printing is the easiest (if not cheapest) part of an RPG. It involves no creativity and little skill in comparison to what gets a product ready to print. And except for the shipping from China, the printing process takes the least actual time, as well. Of course, I understand that most people are ignorant and/or apathetic in regards to the actual work that goes into games. And that's fine, I suppose. We all have priorities.

I actually equate the PDF thing to waiting tables. The best tippers are generally those that have waited tables. They have a knowledge of the work involved and how the pay works.

Redeucer said:

Lets look at just FFG, from what I gather FFG consists of a relatively small amount of people working on a relatively large amount of games. This means that their work time is precious, any time they spend on something is time not spent on something else. Why then would they want to spend time creating a PDF copy, encrypting it and dedicating server space to have it available on your website when...

1) you already have a copy on the market in the form of a book, which seems to be the more popular medium

2)Some naughty person is just going to put an illegal version on the net that is free to download anyway.

If it is as easy as you say it is, and you want it for your own records to make your GM-life easier why not buy yourself a scanner and do it yourself? That way you only have to scan the bits you need like charts and such, you can do multiple copies for your players and you can do it for every hard copy you own. You already mentioned that you would pay book price for a PDF, well a reasonable enough scanner won't cost much more than that.

Lupinorc said:

1. It isn't easy for me because I don't have the copy file that was sent to the print.

2. A scanned copy is scanned as a picture, not as text.  Which means it can not be searched.  Sure you can use an OCR program to to parse out the text, but it doesn't always retain it's formatting.

3. You will at least break the spine of the book if not pull the pages out in order to do it properly, and now you don't have a useful book.

4. It takes a lot of time to scan a whole book and do it right.  Time is money too.

5. It is illeagal.

I would much rather pay for a real PDF copy that will actually do what I need it to do then to spend my time, ruin a book, and still not have a useable file to work with.

Ron Blessing said:

So what your saying is if you buy a book version of a game your only paying for the printing of said book and nothing towards the design process.

I am well aware of the effort and work that goes into writing a game. I am also well aware that some of that effort and work will be around what the product will look like and how the information will fit together as a book. By releasing the RPG as a book the developer can charge more for it allowing greater profits even taking the cost of printing into account, they can also distribute it to a larger amount of people. Not everyone who will want it has the facilities to print a PDF or even a computer let alone a laptop so they can take it with them if gaming elsewhere.

If I were to get a pdf copy of a book with my hard copy I'd be overjoyed. Books are for the game table. When I'm planning (or running a game online) a pdf is a must. A book is unwieldy if you've got one hand on a keyboard, the other on a mouse and a screen a foot or two away from you. I might even be convinced to pay a little extra if it meant a fully bookmarked pdf which was updated whenever errata was released.

See I'm the opposite, I find that PDF's are cumbersome to use. Flicking from window to window, for me, is more unwieldly than having the book next to me open where I need it so all I need do is turn my head. But then, I tend to do my planning as a hand written draft and sprawl my stuff about the dining table (much to the chagrin of the missus ) then type it out from the notes.

It would appear I have created a far more heated discussion than I would like  What I was should have just said in the first instance was

I Like Books!!!!

Rather, I can understand that digital media, especially in this day and age, is growing in popularity but a lot of companies are loathe to dive straight into it as it takes them away from their core business (their comfort zone if you will) and it can have an adverse affect on their profitability (I work for one of the largest publishing companies in the UK so have kind of a vested interest in DM failing )

I think this is going to be one of those debates that will go on till there are no more trees to make paper, some people prefer to use the books other PDF's and their ilk.

Lupinorc said:

Lawyer says noooo

I'll just run through this one more time for those who didn't catch it before:

• Murder is a crime
• Rape is a crime
• Murder isn't Rape
• Murder and Rape are both illegal

• Copyright Infringement is a crime
• Theft is a crime
• Copyright Infringement isn't Theft
• Copyright Infringement and Theft are both illegal.

Right, now that's covered, on to PDFs:

I love PDFs, they're wonderful tools to have at your disposal (especially when you factor in the ability to do things like comment in house rules and errata straight into the text or quickly make custom summary sheets). FFG apparently liked PDFs because quite an extensive catalogue of their past products is available for purchase on DriveThru

People seem to take the view that releasing PDFs will instantly obliterate all print copies of the product, which is patently ridiculous (so much so that I'm ridiculing it - right here - ergo it must be ridiculous). Companies can release both a PDF and a print version of a product, thereby appealing to both those who prefer electronic media and those who prefer traditional hardcopies, surely that's preferable to isolating a portion of your fanbase with a giant gate saying "You must purchase your product in this format to continue"?

Piracy concerns should be a complete non-issue. 100% of the available Dark Heresy range has been pirated, as has 100% of GW's 40K wargame output since the release of 3rd edition, what are they afraid will happen, an increase in piracy? . By producing a PDF you:

 - Allow people to start playing Dark Heresy for a much lower initial cost, thereby increasing your customer base and making your product more popular (Boo! Hiss!)
 - Monetizing sources you otherwise would not see revenue from - like Kage, for example (What? get more money? BOO!)
 - Reduce piracy by not forcing customers to turn to illegal sources to get your product in the format they desire (What? Less piracy? Nay!)
 - Reduce piracy again by providing OEF versions of your products which are inevitably preferable to someone's scanned version of their print book.
 - Get your products out into the hands of paying customers earlier by not being constrained by shipping and postage details  - If FFG were to release a PDF of Disciples, we could have it (and be paying for it with sweet, sweet cashish) right now.

It's the MP3 situation all over again  - "You can't enjoy your purchased music in software form, you MUST play it from the CD! wait...you mean we can sell you the electronic format and make a ton of money off you and sell CDs too? and the electronic format has zero shipping, storage or duplication cost? and we can release content almost as soon as it's made because these days almost everything passes through an electronic format before being printed/pressed/produced anyway?...Hmm...."

When you have a product as popular as Dark Heresy, and produce for a setting as popular as Warhammer 40,000, your products will be pirated, and there's literally nothing you can do to stop it, because in the end someone with a book and a scanner will undo any hard work you put into electronic locks and gizmos, and the harder you try, the more you stimulate piracy (The Streisand effect, or as it should be renamed in relation to DRM, the Spore effect).

I was under the impression (after contacting FFG a while ago) that the reason they won't release PDFs of the Dark Heresy line was due to GW, but given that their more recent products aren't available in PDF either, I'm starting to question that.

Anyhoo, to refer back to my opening statement, Copyright Infringement is bad and wrong and illegal, and you definitely should not do it, but at least it isn't theft, and people should always remember that 1 download does not = 1 lost sale - that would be silly.

Charax said:

In my defence I would like to bring to your attention exhibit A "The anti piracy add that gets rammed down your eye sockets everytime you watch a DVD or go to the cinema". No, not the "fat blacksmith type character that looks a bit possessed ad" (though it is equally annoying), the "You wouldn't steal a [thingy] with the dodgy music ad". Once you seen that a couple of hundred times it's hard to think otherwise

Lupinorc said:

Not exactly, but you're close. You're paying for printing and distribution cuts, as well. Seriously. Not kidding. In fact, PDFs are generally more profitable than paper books. So that's more money for sweat of the brow. One thing I can say with confidence is that most creators are sorely underpaid for their efforts when comparing hours worked to money made. Which is, by the way, another reason I don't steal PDFs.

And for the record, I call it stealing because taking something that isn't yours for free without permission is stealing, regardless of how the law defines it.

Sad to say, while i was waiting to get my freshly ordered Inquisitor Handbook one of my players offered it to me on CD ...

I refused first, of course, but after 2 weeks of waiting (and still no paid book in sight) i accepted it. Now i have it both in hardcover and as a pdf. The hardcover allways accompanies me to the toilet where i browse through it. stupid as it sounds, nowhere are body and mind closer together when your laying and egg, you wouldn't believe the amount of ideas i come up that way. and to make it sure: no, they are NOT CRAP. ok? (of course one of you is still going to make a joke about it).

The pdf i use whenever one of my players contacts me per ICQ and has a question. Is faster for finding things, and i don't have to go away to get the book.

Waiting two weeks for your IH?  heh...  I ordered mine from Amazon in July and am still waiting for it.  In fact, I just called them to find out when it was going to ship and they STILL don't have a date.  I think it's time to go to another source.