Luddite said:

These were also my main disappointment with the psyker rules.  One of the reasons that I specifically bought the rules, other than general support for "40k RPG" (which I feel is important), were to get some really good insight into how psykers "worked" so I could pilfer the ideas for my own conversion of 40k RPG into GURPS.  Yet I find myself working upon the same things mentioned by Luddite.  How does one introduce the concept of "temptation," which for me is a fundamental part of the process of possession, and not the idea of "head popping" or "You rolled a 00!?  Oh dear, that's possession for you.  Roll up a new character!"? (I realise that it doesn't quite go that way... )

How powerful do you make the various Grades so that temptation is always going to be there, or do you take the (arguably official) stance that you only have to do this up to beta, after which they're all loopy as bit-sh*t?

Is pyker Grade determined at birth and, if so, are all PC psykers potential Alphas based on the system present in Dark Heresy, etc.?  (The progressive model to psyker powers, rather than the fixed model...)

So many questions... 

Kage

Kage2020 said:

...and so few answers found in DH...

Ach...sorry everyone.  Here i go again, being all negative...

I have read a large portion of what the black library has put out and I understand psykers to be thus:

• All psykers are born with an innate connection to the warp
• This connection is not as strong for every psyker
• The stronger the psyker the harder it is to resist the call of the warp and its denizens

To solve the issues that have arrisen from the current iteration of the rules I propose the following.

1. All psyker characters have power levels.The number of dice you could role would be dependant on power level and training

• Delta:1
• Beta:2
• Alpha:3
• Alpha plus:4                 

       2.  That all beginning characters are automatically of delta grade

       3.  That at creation you can spend your starting XP to increase your power level (eg. 100XP per rank)[P.S. this XP spending does not count towards your career]

       4.  That to represent the "temptation" the first tiem in 12 hours a psyker uses power there is no chance that anything goes wrong the warp is just not         paying attention.  For each subsecuent use the warp is more likely to lash out and things are very likely to get hairy.  At first the psyker makes an easy (+20%) willpower test to resist the temptation of the warp, this is penalized by the level of the psyker (-5% Beta, -10% Alpha, -15% Alpha plus).  If the test is passed nothing goes wrong and the pskyer is free from interfirence for the moment, if the test is failed than the perils of the warp rules apply to that use of power; for every degree by which the test is failed increases the chance of a perils attack (eg. Two degrees of failure: 9's and 3's).  After the fifth power is used the test gets harder by 10% and continues on from there.

      5.  To represent the difficulty of being a psyker every day the when the character arrises or comes back from a fully relaxed state they must pass a willpower test to avoid gaining a corruption point fro every dgree of failure.  Again this test is penalized depending on the power level (beta -10%, Alpha -20%, Alpha plus -30%)

     6. By the same token a psykers power level allows certain benifits

• Delta: No benefit all powers must be checked against rule 4
• Beta: The first 10 minor powers of the day and the first discipline power do not count against rule 4
• Alpha: The first 30 minor powers of the day and the first 3 discipline powers do not count against rule 4
• Alpha plus: Minor powers do not count against rule 4 and the first 5 discipline powers of the day do not either

     7.  Powers need to be reworked and the number and availability (such as spontaneous manifestation) of discipline powers as well

This is the brief little idea I had

Some interesting rules Emperorswrath.

Are you proposing them because you think the current rules are 'broken' or because you think they are 'wrong'?

Luddite said:

I must say the #2 and #3 are really good points. However, I disagree whole heartedly with #1. While I agree that perhaps Psyker powers in DH are a bit much like the spell system in WHFRP, I think it is this way for a good reason. Class balance. With innate power levels at rank 1 you run into problems  any way you apply it. The scenarios and the problems with each are as such:

1. Psyker class still exists, but Psy rating is assigned at character creation, randomly, and the Psyker gets a really high psy rating. This creates a problematic power gap. The rest of the party spends the entire game trying to catch up to the psyker, and potentially has to deal with PotW designed for a rank 6 or higher party at rank 1. Second, the GM is left with either creating villians that the psyker blows through, or challenges the psyker but easily eviscerates the rest of the party.

2. Psyker class still exists and Psyker randomly rolls psy rating 1. This also creates a power gap. The Psyker is fine at the lower ranks, but later on isn't much use, since the main feature or use of a psyker is tapping into the warp, and this psyker can't do anything that's all that effective with the warp at the higher ranks either in more complex situations or against more powerful monsters.

3. Eliminate the psyker class. Every other class has a small chance to be psychically awake, with psyker powers. This is potentially ok, but does create an unfair power gap imho between the few lucky psykers and the nots.

I don't know ... I'm not the biggest min maxer, but I hate being the guy with that song in my head: "Anything I can do, he can do better. He can do anything better than me!" I hate to feel like I'm not useful, and I think that is pretty common in players.

That's just my two cents.

Cheers! - Dak

I apologize for the repeat post. Hopefully I won't have this problem again.

Dak Rogers said:

Fair enough.  If you consider 'class balance' to be a good thing...

Dak Rogers said:

Perhaps, but i'd argue not.  Innate psyker potential does not equate to relative power.

Unless you take the model that a psyker is 'born whole'; that he knows how to use his complete potential immediately then the 'game balance' thing you talk about is potentially problematic.

However, if you make this the 'cap' on development, so that all psykers start out a 'level 1', but their innate power limits how far they can develop then its not a problem. You still get the metagame progression, but you differentiate between different genetic capacities...

Currently according the DH RAW every psyker starts at level 1 and every psyker can reach level 6 wether they are 'Alpha' or 'Omega'...

Not only that, every psyker has an equal chance of invoking PotW (slightly tweaked with 'favoured of the warp'), etc...

to respond to the earlier question of wether I think the rules are broken or wrong I would say no.  I simply think that the feeling of psykers could be better portrayed this way.  I understand that the idea of a really powerful begining psyker seems as though it would unbalance things however you have to remember that they are quite likely to gain corruption points if they are not careful.  Looking at what I wrote I would say that these ideas need some refinement but that they would make for interesting gaming.  I also believe that it would be necessary to have talents that represent control of a spykers conection eg. the psy rating but this coudl be for many different things including a talent that might read as such

(Discipline) Master:  When a psyker has spent most of there life atuning there mind to the way the warp works in one way wether it be telepathy or pyrokynesis they often are able to better use the energy which flows through them as a conduit.  When usign powers from the discipline of choice the psyker may choose to add up to two extra dice to his roll.

Emperorswrath said:

The stronger the psyker the harder it is to resist the call of the warp and its denizens

Yet Primary psykers are naturally resistant to the warp. Surely the more powerful the Primary, the more resistant to the malefic powers of the warp? Of course, with that said, the 'fluff' always seems to take the stance that Alpha Plus psykers are crazy as bat sh*t. Well, except the Emperor, but that's not surprising is it? 

Emperorswrath said:

To solve the issues that have arrisen from the current iteration of the rules I propose the following...

Interesting approach, Emperorswrath. As I see it, though, you've increased the "crunch" without, for example, addressing the nature of "temptation."

Emperorswrath said:

All psyker characters have power levels.The number of dice you could role would be dependant on power level and training Delta:1 Beta:2 Alpha:3 Alpha plus:4

Doesn't four power dice translate to Psy Level 4 in Dark Heresy terms? What does that make Psy Level 5 and 6, out of interest? In your interpretation.

Emperorswrath said:

If the test is passed nothing goes wrong and the pskyer is free from interfirence for the moment, if the test is failed than the perils of the warp rules apply to that use of power; for every degree by which the test is failed increases the chance of a perils attack (eg. Two degrees of failure: 9's and 3's).

This is the point that I mentioned above about "crunch" and the addressing of "temptation." What I mean by this is that you've increased the number of rules, but how is that temptation. Sure, the more you use your powers the nastier the effects, but with keying it back into Dark Heresy's "Perils of the Warp," something that does not appear to be about temptation, but rather one about punishment.

Perhaps it's a bit meta-game, but for me temptation for psykers is about being seduced by those powers. Wanting to use more despite the knowledge that it will surely damn them. For whatever the heck the "sanctioning" process might be to engender within the normal (whatever that might mean) psyker a morbid fear of drawing too deeply, yet they are constantly forced to do this; to taint their soul, surviving the insanity, the premature aging, etc.

The ends should justify the means at the time, but later...? Perhaps not so.

Dark Rogers said:

I must say the #2 and #3 are really good points. However, I disagree whole heartedly with #1. While I agree that perhaps Psyker powers in DH are a bit much like the spell system in WHFRP, I think it is this way for a good reason. Class balance.

A fair enough point, but as Luddite suggests, it really depends on whether you think that "class balance" as mechanically-determined rather than GM-determined is a good thing. My own personal bias, inasmuch as it is relevant, is that I've never been fond of systems that try and play me, preferring to play the setting that the system abstracts. Others, of course, take a different tack and that's more than fair enough.

Dark Rogers said:

"Anything I can do, he can do better. He can do anything better than me!" I hate to feel like I'm not useful, and I think that is pretty common in players.

Then why make it random? Why cannot players select to be a psyker? Of course, this might buy into the *"point buy" system a bit too much for some, but there we go.

Emperorswrath said:

(Discipline) Master: When a psyker has spent most of there life atuning there mind to the way the warp works in one way wether it be telepathy or pyrokynesis they often are able to better use the energy which flows through them as a conduit. When usign powers from the discipline of choice the psyker may choose to add up to two extra dice to his roll.

What limits the number of "power dice" that a psyker can draw upon, though?

Erm, just some more random or not-so-random thoughts. Be well, whether you're a lover of the psyker system in Dark Heresy or feel that it needs tweaking. 

Kage

Taking on some of what Emperorswrath has to say, and then just quickly spewing ideas onto a page.

What if the Psker level limited the range of powers a psyker could buy?

E.g.

Delta: Can only buy Minor Powers,
Beta: Can buy up to two disciplines, or master just one.
Alpha: Can master upto two disciplines
Alpha plus: Can master two disiplines and buy a third, or master one discipline and buy three others.

or maybe just even limiting it to particualar target numbers?

Maybe rather than learning Psy level, players could choose to buy additional powers or more psy dice. If the cost on Psy dice was particularly high you'd end up with Delta's with all the Minor powers able to maintain several at once (due to having lots cheap powers and a few dice), and Alpha Plus's either with a few select abilitys and suffcient dice or a broad range and no power....

If normal Psy dice had a much lower chance of invoking the warp the GM could then tempt power starved players with the offer of lending them some extra 'warp' dice, which could be rolled even after a failed check. These dice could have a much higher chance of peril or automatic corruption/insanity points etc.

I think this is getting quite interesting.  All the ideas presented so far are excellent and I can turning over in my head ways to refine this.  So lets try this again

      1.  Psykers are determined by there inherent power level

• Delta: Starting 1 die may invoke up to 3 total
• Beta: Starting 2 dice may invoke up to 3 total
• Alpha: Starting 3 dice may invoke up to 5 total
• Alpha plus: Starting 4 dice may invoke up to 5 total

      2.  All begining characters are Delta grade and can buy there level up with startign XP on a 100XP basis (eg. Alpha 200XP) this does not count towards there career progress as it is harder for a alpha psyker to get the control that comes naturaly to a Delta

      3.  "invoking" is the process of drawing more from the warp than should really be possible.  For each extra die that a character wants they must pass a toughness check depending on what power level they are.

• Delta: +10% delta grade psykers are often passed over by the minions of the warp in favor of more power snacks
• Beta: +0% beta grade psykers are often seen as what the average of a sanconite should be
• Alpha: -10% alpha grade psykers draw a good deal of attention to themselves as they show up brightly in the warp
• Alpha plus: -20% alpha plus psykers find it hard to resist the attention that is always shown them by the denizens of the warp

        The reason for this being a toughness check is a psykers body can only handle so much power without training.  If the test is passed then the psyker gets the die and nothing goes wrong.  If the test is failed than there is a 50-50 chance the die is not added to the total and inaddition they allways gain 1d5 corruption points and take and number of points of damage equal to the degree of failure that bypasses all armour and toughness

      4.  The question of temptation.  All psykers are tempted by the warp but to what degree is dependant on there training and on there power.  The question becomes how do we represent the concept and penalties fo temptation?  I will put down a few thoughts here but I could use help in this.

• psykers have to make a willpower test every 12 hours to avoid gaining either 1 corruption point or 1 insanity point.  This is to represent the warp working its insiduous presence on the minds of psykers wether it be a deamon talking about his death or simply a continuous unearthly scream that echos in the distance
• any time a power is used sucsefully the GM shoudl roll a die if it is a 9 than the psyker has managed to cast his power in the presence of a being from the warp whish has now taken a keen interest in the psyker he will wait until the psyker is tired ot weak and then it will try and convince the psyker to do something for itself.  This coudl be either opposed willpower intelligence or fellowship tests to see how gains the upper hand and gets what he wants...
• every time a psyker uses a power he must pass a willpower test or want to feel the rush of power again this test starts at +10% difficulty and gets harder by 1% for every minor power and 2% for every major power used since she last rested. if thsi test is failed than the psyker must immediately use another power on there next action

      5.  Another question to consider is the matter of ease of power use.  Looking back over what I originally wrote I would maybe rework it as such

• Using the warp is a draining process that wears out a psyker especially if they must contend with controlling there power and resisting the temptations of the warp and this is represented as such

1. Delta: All powers costing 7 or less never invoke perils of the warp, inaddition the first 3 powers they use in a day do not invoke perils of the warp
2. Beta: All powers costing 5 or less never invoke perils of the warp, inaddition the first 5 powers they use in a day do not invoke perils of the warp
3. Alpha: The first 10 powers of the day do not invoke the perils of the warp
4. Alpha plus: The first 15 powers fo the day do nto invoke perils of the warp

• Whenever usign the warp a psyker must test willpower to determine his control over the energy he is drawing upon if this test is passed than there is no chance that there will be perils however if it is failed than there is if it is failed by two or more degrees than add in a "wild die" that simply increases the chance of a perils of the warp attack and not the out coem of the roll this test is affected by the power of the psyker(eg. -0% for delta,-5% for beta...)

      6.  Powers should be reworked into groupings such as:

• Minor powers
• Medium disciplines
• Expert disciplines
• Master powers

              Within these there would be different categories:

• Fate
• Pyrokinesis
• Telepathy
• Kinetics
• Bio
• Daemonology
• Divination
• Aether Weaving

              Each category would have powers of each level that are available as a psyker purchases the asociated talent

      7.  New talents to replace the idea of Psy rating with consumate training

• Novitiate: begining training for a psyker gives one extra die to roll and acess to minor powers as well as two medium discipline
• Innitiate: now a member of the college of psykers two extra dice are available to the psyker now has acess to three medium disciplines
• Frater: a full ranked associate of the college with acess to more privaliged training can now add specialist powers and has acess to a fourth medium discipline and a third die to power rolls gains acess to expert disciplines
• Master: now the psyker has reached the pinicale of instruction at the college teaching students and being sought after by govenors and warmasters 4 dice are added to the available pool the psyker now has acess to any medium discipline gains acess to Master disciplines
• (Discipline) master: When a psyker becomes very focused on one power to the exclusion of all else the are often leaps adn bounds above their peers in that field while often having a hard time in others.  The player may add an extra die to all powers frmo this discipline but must choose another THAT HE HAS POWERS IN which he has one fewer die for.
• Minor (discipline): The easiest powers to achieve most psykers learn the rudiments of every discipline with time and can thus have acess to a wide variety of abilities.  Gain acess to the minor power group associated with the discipline in question.
• Medium (discipline): Slightly harder to master than minor powers these are still seen in use by many psykers however only the truly dedicated ever achieve the mastery of all these and go on to study the higher levels.  Gain acess to the medium power group associated with the discipline in question.
• Expert (discipline):  The psyker has mastered the ability to use one power from the more difficult of those associated with this discipline. Unlike Minor power or medium this only gives acess to one power rather than a group as these powers require mor eintense training to master.
• Master (discipline):  The psyker has mastered the ability to use one power from the most difficult of those associated with this discipline. Unlike Minor power or medium this only gives acess to one power rather than a group as these powers require more intense training to master

      8.  All starting characters get to choose one starting minor discipline group and have acess to 2 others as well as acess to one medium discipline group

Sorry for the long nature of this post I am curious as to what people think of it

Karmatech said:

Secondly, there is game style. I'm on my second reading of the Eisenhorn compendium, and a third for Ravenor, which are the things that got me hooked into Dark Heresy, and I've yet to see Eisenhorn or Ravenor invoke Perils (but I’ll keep reading just in case  Who knows - maybe they teach you a trick at Inquisitor School to avoid it, perhaps for Minor Powers - still it irks me that you can't actually play a game like the novels!

What do you feel is missing from the game that exists in the novels?

-K

The psyker rules have some problems - misfires are too likely. It's worth applying some statistics.

A player who rolls a 9 invokes psychic phenomena. So that's a 1 in 10 odds for each single dice used in an effect, every time. That means if the player uses six dice, they have a greater than 50% chance of at least one roll on the table, every time.

A roll of 75+ on the psychic phenomena table invokes the perils of the warp. (75-100 - 26% oddly). Call it 1 in 4.

So, per dice roll the odds of a perils of the warp roll are 1/10 * 1/4 = 1/40 per dice. For a player using 6 dice the odds are therefore 1/40 * 6 = 1/6.7.

Simply put, if the average rate of perils of the warp is 1/40 uses of minor single dice powers no imperial psyker would ever survive their training. Assuming they use powers more than once per class, and have a single class every working day, they would invoke the perils at least once a month. Astropaths who use powers constantly would be dead in a couple of days!

At around 1/7 chance of perils of the warp every time they use a major power most characters in the novels would be dead many times over. Eisenhorn and Ravenor would need hundreds of fate points.

The odds of psychic mischance should be reduced, dramatically so for weak powers.

I suggest ... (1) Perils of the warp are never invoked by powers of less than three dice, only psychic phenomena. (2) Perils of the warp occur only on a roll of 100 in the phenomena table.

That changes the odds to 6/1000 or 1 / 166.7 for a major power. That's ok in gaming terms, although probably still fairly high for the background assuming regular use of overbleed. For drama amd realism the best way to rectify this would be to apply a further modifier based on circumstances. Basically the chance of the perils should increase when using psychic powers under stress (say double) and be reduced by a factor of 10 when used in safe circumstances.

Personally I would agree that too many rules, too many dice rolls and too much complexity bogs a game down and makes it 'less fun'. But that's a personal opinion, and I know a lot of gamers who enjoy games which are more about the statistics than the narrative. If that's the type of game they enjoy then fair play too them, as long as there having fun there’s no issue, there's no one right way to play.

The purpose of this thread was I believe to discuss peoples view of the Psychic system used in DH, both Mechanics and Narrative. Now I prefer mechanics that support the narrative and that encourage the players to look at the universe in a particular way. For me both the narrative aspects and the mechanics of the current system fail to present the universe the way I perceive it.

I'm looking for a dark gritty outlook where psychic powers cause madness, spiritual corruption and moral degradation. Instead the system presents what I'd describe as almost 4-color wizard spells with special comedy 'head popping' action. To ‘fix’ the Psy rules to fit my world view is too much effort for me to put in at the moment, so for now Pskers are strictly NPC’s and the range and effects of the there powers are merely background flavour with the occasional plot device when needed.
 

RichH said:

I agree totally. My problem with the rules is they make deadly psychic mishaps too likely to be consistent with the setting because the all the psykers would be dead if even the smallest psychic power, used by a trained psyker, misfired that frequently.

Basically the odds of a serious misfire should be reduced dramatically and also depend on the power used and the circumstance. Scrying a cultist or daemon should be dangerous, floating a cup or pulling a lever should be pretty safe.

At present a 1 dice power has a 1/40 chance of causing catastrophe. That may sound low but if you use powers a couple of times a day you could burn through that in a week. What sort of system makes floating a small object likely to summon a Bloodthirster?